GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Cipher » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:17 pm

Literally no one else saw this as the transformation being along the lines of their transformations into giant monkeys?

I've never thought it was "breaking the spell" so much as any Saiyan who turned Super Saiyan 4 would have an adult-appearing body.

Doesn't explain those magic pants, but nothing will.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:19 pm

Araki wrote:They probably didn't want to admit kid Goku was a terrible, terrible idea, so this was their idea of compromising.
Yep. That's always the theory I've rolled with. Toei realised how much they botched the execution of Kid Goku in GT and thought they could save the show by having Goku's new SSJ form turn him back into an adult. But it was too little too late by then.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:07 pm

SS4 seems to give the user the best body for fighting. So, even if Goku was an old man, he would appear in his prime as a Super Saiyan 4.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:35 pm

I'm really not sure why some of the posters here are denouncing the fact that SSJ4 Goku was an adult, or that he had a new pair of pants was somehow anymore ridiculous than some of the other stuff we've seen in the franchise. This is the same franchise where pink men are able to turn people into candy and where green men can materialize hourglasses out of nowhere.

Anyway, I think the best explanation is that as an SSJ4, Goku becomes more powerful than the Ultimate Shenron, so his transformation is able to negate it's effects.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Akumaito Beam » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:53 pm

Toriyama only provided a sketch for an adult Super Saiyan 4 and they felt obligated to use that design despite it not jiving with the current story line. That's the most plausible out of universe explanation to me.
Last edited by Akumaito Beam on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Cipher » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:53 pm

So ... no agreement on that "It's like oozaru" thing? Like, I always felt that was a really simple, obvious explanation.

It's a related transformation, so I don't see why transforming into an adult-appearing body is all that different from transforming into a hundred-foot monkey.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:00 pm

Cipher wrote:So ... no agreement on that "It's like oozaru" thing? Like, I always felt that was a really simple, obvious explanation.

It's a related transformation, so I don't see why transforming into an adult-appearing body is all that different from transforming into a hundred-foot monkey.
No, I agree with you. Toriyama says Saiyan children have extended youths until they hit a growth spurt and develop a body suited for fighting. Likewise, I feel as if SS4 condenses the Ozaru body into what it considers the best for each individual Saiyan to fight with.

I mean, It's not just Goku that changes size. I feel like I have to point this out every single time the subject comes up, but Vegeta changes by like a foot too...

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Cipher » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:11 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:No, I agree with you. Toriyama says Saiyan children have extended youths until they hit a growth spurt and develop a body suited for fighting. Likewise, I feel as if SS4 condenses the Ozaru body into what it considers the best for each individual Saiyan to fight with.
I've always seen that as a bit of a tongue-in-cheek explanation for Goku appearing childlike in the manga until his sudden growth spurt before the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, but yeah, it works with this as well.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by baneofdemon22 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:45 pm

Super Sonic wrote:
baneofdemon22 wrote: I can't stand that about the Hulk. Nor can I get behind the idea that he gets stronger as he gets angrier. He should pass out from exhaustion or explode like a gamma bomb if he gets any angrier. Heck, the whole gamma radiation origin doesn't work for me. I much prefer the failed Super Soldier Serum route from the movies. When it comes to characters like Aquaman or Wonder Woman, I don't need their powers explained to me because one is part Atlantean (Or Merman? Either way) and the other is a demi-god. Anything goes! Same thing with Piccolo. He was a demon; no further explanation needed for me! Clothes powers...sure why not? :lol:
1) It was the Silver/Marvel Age. Back then, the thoughts were often, radiation does things. Also the Cold War was going on, hence the testing of radioactive weapons and whatnot.

2) Do you really want to see Hulk's little Hulk hanging out?
1) Oh I understand that. I enjoyed the silver age Hulk and the 60's cartoon because I could appreciate it within that context, but I don't like anything outside of that. I think they fixed all my problems with him in the recent movies outside the clothes thing and his massive height increase. It's not a big deal though. I'm really not a fan of the Marvel movies anyways. So far the only superhero movies I like are the Dark Knight Trilogy, Spider-man 2, Iron Man, the Winter Soldier, and some of the DC animated movies.

2) No, but there were ways to get around that. The art wasn't very detailed back then, so I don't think it would have ever been a problem in the 60s.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by baneofdemon22 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:47 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Cipher wrote:So ... no agreement on that "It's like oozaru" thing? Like, I always felt that was a really simple, obvious explanation.
Toriyama says Saiyan children have extended youths until they hit a growth spurt and develop a body suited for fighting. Likewise, I feel as if SS4 condenses the Ozaru body into what it considers the best for each individual Saiyan to fight with.
]
I appreciate your explanation. I wish I could like everything Dragon Ball, and I am happy when someone comes up with explanations for what I may consider inconsistencies or plot holes.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by swimtrunks » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:10 am

ABED wrote:I still don't understand why some people hate this or think it was such an awful idea. Goku is a kid at heart, his personality hasn't changed even if his body is that of a pre-teen.
Because Pan filled the role of annoying kid in GT already, we didn't need two of them. Adult Goku had a better design in GT than he did in Z, till they went and ruined it by making him a kid again.

As for GT inconsistencies, how does one explain Cooler's minor appearance?

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:34 pm

I like the potential theory. But I always found it strange how kids like Gotenks were able to go SSJ3 perfectly fine while GT Goku couldn't maintain it. It could be because fusion enhances the body's endurance, or GT Goku's inability to maintain the form for long stemmed from the side effects of the wish. In either case, I always assumed that Gotenks wouldn't turn into a adult if he goes SSJ4 because of how well he managed SSJ3. But I could be wrong.
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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:22 pm

swimtrunks wrote: As for GT inconsistencies, how does one explain Cooler's minor appearance?
Out of Universe answer - The animators probably just like throwing in a random character for fun.

In universe answer - I guess Coola must have died somehow later on earlier in the series. Movie 6 may have happen much differently before GT.
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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Hitiro » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:21 pm

Cetra wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Cetra wrote:here is so much about the Otherworld that still could be explained and therefore is not necessarily a plothole.
It's not explained in the show, any data books or from the people of the show then it's a plot hole. The dead unable to die in GT is a plot hole since in DBZ, they said that the dead can be erase forever if they die again.
That is not what a plothole is. A Plothole has to be paradox to be a Plothole. Other than that it is just an inconstistency that demands an explanation but nothing that actually and definitely means trouble as the plot should fall into that hole not being able to come out without rewriting. And I will repeat myself, the Otherworld rules in Dragon Ball have never been established enough to exclude other things like when rules can be broken or such, therefore everything that could be illogical is not necessarily illogical. What you mention does not actually contradict but only apparently. If there are chances and ways to avoid that contradiction with a proper explanation it does not need to mean it is contradictory, even if it seemed so at first. Oh and of course it needs to be really significant for the story. Just some random stuff that seems problematic for you is also not a plot hole.
A plothole is a logical inconsistency with the story. So if GT has inconsistencies then they are plotholes. As pointed out by Hellspawn the dying once your dead is a pretty glaring plothole as the story had already established that if you die once being dead you cease to exist. Yet both Cell and Freeza die and come back. They also claim they can come back as many times as needed to defeat Goku. Other plotholes included a set of Dragonballs going unnoticed for 17 years on the lookout. Surely Mr. Popo would have come across them at some time during those 23 years. He is supposed to look after the place so it is frankly illogical that he ignored cleaning a room for 23 years. It was also a pretty out in the open room as well from what I recall even though these Dragon Balls were supposed to be hidden away deep in the lookout according to, I think Kaio(?).

Why were these Dragonballs not destroyed when they became active again? Then there is the fact that Pilaf even knew what Black Star Dragonballs were. And was able to find them. When the story explicitly goes out of the way to point out that nobody except the Kaio, the original Namekian and possibly Mr. Popo should know of their existence. They were sealed right after their creation. Also, the Dragonballs should only exist if Piccolo is a Dragon Clan Namekian. As only Dragon Clan Namekian can create and maintain Dragonballs. Hence why Kami's set turned to stone on fusion with Piccolo. Even if that could somehow be explained as Piccolo isn't the same person as Kami then there is also the issue of Piccolo not actually being the original Namekian either. And even Kaio didn't think these balls still existed. So how does Pilaf have knowledge surpassing even a god? Also, Kaio somehow finds out that the Dragonballs will blow up earth somehow. Where exactly did he get his information from?

I'm pretty sure this GT inconsistencies thing is already a thread anyway.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Cipher » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:07 pm

swimtrunks wrote:As for GT inconsistencies, how does one explain Cooler's minor appearance?
A throw-away cameo. I doubt the script even called for him.

This one makes me unreasonably frustrated because it's so clearly an Easter egg and for some reason winds up on all kinds of "major plothole" lists.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Captain Strawberry » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:01 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:SS4 seems to give the user the best body for fighting. So, even if Goku was an old man, he would appear in his prime as a Super Saiyan 4.
That's what I am saying :D
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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Thanos » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:35 am

Goku should've transformed into SSJ4 as an adult, then when he reverts to base form, stayed an adult. That would've been a great way to end that silly plot device. But no... they kept him that way... the whole... goddamn... series. That's still one of the major what-the-fucks of that show.
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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Tectorman » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:22 pm

We know that a person's power will interfere with whether a dragon's wish can affect him. Shenron could not kill Vegeta and Nappa because that was beyond Kami's power. We also know that this limitation isn't limited to killing a character. During the Kid Buu fight, Porunga couldn't restore Goku's power all the way, but only to normal levels.

So I'm of the camp that Goku's adult form during SSJ4 is because he's temporarily shrugging off the Black Star Dragon's wish.
Cipher wrote:Literally no one else saw this as the transformation being along the lines of their transformations into giant monkeys?

I've never thought it was "breaking the spell" so much as any Saiyan who turned Super Saiyan 4 would have an adult-appearing body.

Doesn't explain those magic pants, but nothing will.
I just want to make sure I'm understanding your position. Are you saying that since any given Saiyan, young or adult, turning into an Oozaru or Golden Oozaru will look the same as any other Oozaru, that it's because the Oozaru transformation completely ignores the nature of the Saiyan's body while it becomes its own thing? And that the SSJ4 form, being derived from the Golden Oozaru, likewise ignores the nature of the Saiyan's body?

I.e., if Pan could go SSJ, and if she were hit by a buttload of Blutz waves provoking an Oozaru transformation, then she would turn into a Golden Oozaru, and her Golden Oozaru form would look just like Goku's and Vegeta's. And then, if she could reassert her own consciousness, then she would turn into an adult-looking SSJ4, regardless of the fact that she's what?, 12, 13, 14?

Do I have that right?
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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by Cipher » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:43 pm

Tectorman wrote:I just want to make sure I'm understanding your position. Are you saying that since any given Saiyan, young or adult, turning into an Oozaru or Golden Oozaru will look the same as any other Oozaru, that it's because the Oozaru transformation completely ignores the nature of the Saiyan's body while it becomes its own thing? And that the SSJ4 form, being derived from the Golden Oozaru, likewise ignores the nature of the Saiyan's body?

I.e., if Pan could go SSJ, and if she were hit by a buttload of Blutz waves provoking an Oozaru transformation, then she would turn into a Golden Oozaru, and her Golden Oozaru form would look just like Goku's and Vegeta's. And then, if she could reassert her own consciousness, then she would turn into an adult-looking SSJ4, regardless of the fact that she's what?, 12, 13, 14?

Do I have that right?
Basically. I'm saying it's a bodily transformation just like oozaru, and the form simply has an adult appearance.

So if Pan were to achieve Super Saiyan 4, as an actual child, she too would appear adult.

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Re: GT - Why SSJ4 Goku is an adult

Post by apex_pretador » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:37 am

Simple answer : SS4 far exceeds the power of creator of black star DB's. As we know that a wish can't affect someone far stronger than the creator , so goku reverts back to adult form.
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