Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

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CosmicSaiyan
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Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by CosmicSaiyan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:51 pm

If Goku already mastered his SSJG form, and confirmed in the movie and by Toriyama that he was around 30-40 percent still weaker than Beerus, and from his own interpretative scale Goku being at 6, Beerus at 10 and Whis 15. Why is that when he transformed into SSJG Blue, Goku still wasent way above Beerus and Whis level??
I mean wouldnt his powers multiply by 50? or does his new super saiyan blue form follows a complete different formula that perhaps might only give him around 20 percent increase of power than original transformations that increased Saiyans powers by 5000 percent or 50 times multiplied from their base form.

First theory is that the SSJ God might perhaps be way stronger than Goku Base form in the RoF saga, which i dont see happening because didnt Toriyama said that Goku already absorbed that power within him so technically Goku's base form now is at a SSJ God level.

Second theory is that perhaps characters like Beerus and Whis still have something in them that makes them beyond anyone else in the series. Goku might have a godly ki, but he doesnt have that same status or rank. Its funny how Vegeta was able to reach SSJG level just by training with Whis despite the original claims thats its impossible to obtain godly ki no matter how long you train. Again bunch of hyperbolic nonsense, getting annoying already!!

Anyway if SSJ Blue transformation is really not that big of a power increase, then if Goku used Kaioken wouldn't it had been more effective than his new transformation.

Lets say current Goku in his base form is at 6 and he is at a mega Galaxian-universal level if using DBS feats.

SSG Blue Goku= around 8~9 (Universal)

Beerus=10 (Universal+)

Whis=15 (Multiversal)

Goku with kaioken times x10= 60 (Multiversal++)

But I probably see why they wouldn't use Kaioken because the more Goku becomes stronger, the more broken and bloody OP this powerup would seem to be. I mean by the whole logic of power scaling Goku at SSG Blue form should have been at around 300 in terms of scale making him soo powerful that he could probably just sneeze entire dragon ball verse out of existance because he would be 20 times stronger than Whis.

But i guess they decided to really nerf these whole SSJG Blue transformations making them not only kinda useless but only powerful enough that isnt above the villains level, that wouldn't just allow them to one shot golden Frieza. Sure they dont want Goku to become Mary.Sue but at the same time their completely making the series inconsistent in general. What wrong with being overpowered i mean? Frieza was a weakling anyway!

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:50 pm

Highly unlikely. Kaio-Ken is inferior to Super Saiyan, so I don't think it'd do anything but make Goku weaker. On top of that, it's only effective in bursts.

Overall, I don't see Kaio-Ken being useful for Godku.
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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:55 pm

Anything is possible. Look at Shisami.
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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:50 pm

CosmicSaiyan wrote:
Lets say current Goku in his base form is at 6 and he is at a mega Galaxian-universal level if using DBS feats.

SSG Blue Goku= around 8~9 (Universal)

Beerus=10 (Universal+)

Whis=15 (Multiversal)
Since Goku stopped using Kaio-Ken once he learned how to transform into a Super Saiyan, I think we can safely assume it's no longer a relevant technique for him.

Also those numbers don't make much sense. Toriyama claimed something like Golden Freeza still being much, much weaker than Beerus, even though Freeza starts the fight being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by CosmicSaiyan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:41 pm

TheatreStyleKai wrote:
Since Goku stopped using Kaio-Ken once he learned how to transform into a Super Saiyan, I think we can safely assume it's no longer a relevant technique for him.

Also those numbers don't make much sense. Toriyama claimed something like Golden Freeza still being much, much weaker than Beerus, even though Freeza starts the fight being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
Well then they basically nerfed Goku for the sake of a plot, cause in Dragon Ball Super during Beerus fight, their powers very pretty close to each other considering that they stalemated multiple times during their clashes. Saying that Golden Frieza was still much weaker than Beerus would technically also make him weaker than SSG Blue Goku since his new transformation should technically be stronger than his original red haired form that put him almost on Beerus level. Therefore another inconsistency for the sake of trying to make the show entertaining while attempting to make old villains still relevant to the power ups Goku recently got.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by Lionel » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:56 am

Kaioken is a very powerful technique in its own right. Were it not for the transformations, we would likely see it being used on a very frequent basis throughout the later arcs. Considering how meagre of an increase the SSJGSSJ form appears to give, it would seem more logical to use Kaioken if multipliers like ten and twenty could be used. There would be no tension left with Goku becoming so powerful that not even Whis could stand up to him which seems to be one of the more reasonable explanations for it not being reintroduced aside from Toriyama having forgotten about it after so many years.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by CosmicSaiyan » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:20 am

Lionel wrote:Kaioken is a very powerful technique in its own right. Were it not for the transformations, we would likely see it being used on a very frequent basis throughout the later arcs. Considering how meagre of an increase the SSJGSSJ form appears to give, it would seem more logical to use Kaioken if multipliers like ten and twenty could be used. There would be no tension left with Goku becoming so powerful that not even Whis could stand up to him which seems to be one of the more reasonable explanations for it not being reintroduced aside from Toriyama having forgotten about it after so many years.
They probably forgot about it, because even if they ended making it irrelevant for Goku, why weren't Krillin, Piccolo or Tien ever were shown to use it? Toriyama just dosent seem to care about that technique anymore, ever since Super Saiyan forms came to existence. I mean Kaioken technically gives you a limitless potential since you could amplify your power by whatever you want as long as your body is durable enough to take it. But I guess that last filler during the after life with Goku was the last time we ever seen the potential of Kaioken coming back which never happened in canon.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by mirai.popo » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:38 am

CosmicSaiyan wrote:
TheatreStyleKai wrote:
Since Goku stopped using Kaio-Ken once he learned how to transform into a Super Saiyan, I think we can safely assume it's no longer a relevant technique for him.

Also those numbers don't make much sense. Toriyama claimed something like Golden Freeza still being much, much weaker than Beerus, even though Freeza starts the fight being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
Well then they basically nerfed Goku for the sake of a plot, cause in Dragon Ball Super during Beerus fight, their powers very pretty close to each other considering that they stalemated multiple times during their clashes. Saying that Golden Freeza was still much weaker than Beerus would technically also make him weaker than SSG Blue Goku since his new transformation should technically be stronger than his original red haired form that put him almost on Beerus level. Therefore another inconsistency for the sake of trying to make the show entertaining while attempting to make old villains still relevant to the power ups Goku recently got.
Disagreed. Goku was not nerfed: Kaioken is a all-out burst transformation that have a huge drawback. On other hand Kami Ki is the contrary, not a burst-out but a in-concentration ki that provides more power and more stamina. Your body would be obliterated if you multiply KaioKen too many times, once it kills your cells bursting out all of its energy. A kaioken time x100 would kill Goku, in my opinion. So let's say that:

Goku Base = 1
-----------------------------------
Goku Kaioken = 2
Goku Kaioken x 2 = 4
Goku Kaioken x 100 = 1267650600228229401496703205376
So at cost of suicide Goku could have 5 minutes (or a lot less) of imense power (but we saw golden Freeza doing the same thing and loosing because of stamina).
-----------------------------------
Goku SSJ = 50
Goku SSJ2 = 100
Soku SSJ3 = 200
Until here, maybe kaioken x20 would compensate, if you don't mind the low stamina. But Goku minds it and that's why he trains SS Full Power with Gohan in the Time Chamber
----------------------------------
Goku SSJG = 100000
Goku SSJGSS = 5000000
Here I theorized about SSJG multiplier (x500) and SSJGSSJ multiplier (another x500 buff), what seems plausible to me, once goku was defeated with 1 finger tap of bills on SSJ3 and put some fight on SSJG mode. That being the case, kaioken is not viable anymore.

P.S. = Would be great to see Tiencha, Kirilin and Piccolo to learn the kaioken. That would elevate their fighting power and maybe get them relevant again.
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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:16 pm

No. The cons of the Kaioken heavily outweigh the pros. Goku's body would be wrecked if he went Kaioken x20 or beyond. The Kaioken is a more useful technique if used in short bursts not for a prolonged duration of time. Not mention that the multiplier in strength provided in the Kaioken form pales in comparison to what SSJ can provide.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by Hot Rod » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 pm

I don't think Kaio-Ken would be effective in any way anymore, which means we won't see it again in the series. Super Saiyan transformations are far more "reliable" with less cons, I would even say Super Saiyan 3 is still more effective than mastering Kaio-Ken to power up to... I don't know, x100?

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a Super Saiyan (which by itself is a transformation with no cons) with the power of a Super Saiyan God, something I theorize that even the Super Saiyan's multiplier was thrown through the window.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:54 pm

Ofcourse it would.
SSJ Blue gives an increase that's even less then 2 x.
Kaioken can be multiplied up to 20 x so it's only logical that Kaioken would boost Goku's strength much higher.
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:00 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:Ofcourse it would.
SSJ Blue gives an increase that's even less then 2 x.
Kaioken can be multiplied up to 20 x so it's only logical thst Kaioken would boost Goku's strength much higher.
That's only if you look at the God scale with 2+2=4 logic when I think a more appropriate way is looking at every level as a tier of its own. Say Goku and Vegeta's base forms are 6 each and a fifty times increase from SSJ increases their power so they qualify under a tier 8. That's the only way I can see multipliers being reconciled with the God scale unless the multiplier for SSJ was never as high as we thought or it actually did shrink as time went on.
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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:12 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Ofcourse it would.
SSJ Blue gives an increase that's even less then 2 x.
Kaioken can be multiplied up to 20 x so it's only logical thst Kaioken would boost Goku's strength much higher.
That's only if you look at the God scale with 2+2=4 logic when I think a more appropriate way is looking at every level as a tier of its own. Say Goku and Vegeta's base forms are 6 each and a fifty times increase from SSJ increases their power so they qualify under a tier 8. That's the only way I can see multipliers being reconciled with the God scale unless the multiplier for SSJ was never as high as we thought or it actually did shrink as time went on.
Well given that Beerus went as high as 70% power in BoG, that corresponds well with SSG Goku being a 6 compared to Beerus' 10 and thus implying that kind of 2+2=4 logic at least as written by Toriyama.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:19 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Ofcourse it would.
SSJ Blue gives an increase that's even less then 2 x.
Kaioken can be multiplied up to 20 x so it's only logical thst Kaioken would boost Goku's strength much higher.
That's only if you look at the God scale with 2+2=4 logic when I think a more appropriate way is looking at every level as a tier of its own. Say Goku and Vegeta's base forms are 6 each and a fifty times increase from SSJ increases their power so they qualify under a tier 8. That's the only way I can see multipliers being reconciled with the God scale unless the multiplier for SSJ was never as high as we thought or it actually did shrink as time went on.
Well given that Beerus went as high as 70% power in BoG, that corresponds well with SSG Goku being a 6 compared to Beerus' 10 and thus implying that kind of 2+2=4 logic at least as written by Toriyama.
Only if every tier requires the same amount of power gains. Let's say to qualify as a 1 on the God scale you need a PL of 1 trillion then 2 trillion to classify as a 2 and so forth. But I think its more likely the gap between each tier grows the higher it goes, making the gap between say a 6 and a 7 considerably greater than between a 1 and 2.
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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by buutenks » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:35 pm

Think due to how powerful goku has become kaioken cant multiplie his PL by so much.Plus in blue form he gets god ki and that is cooler.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:43 pm

buutenks wrote:Plus in blue form he gets god ki and that is cooler.
No, that's Freeza's brother.

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Re: Would Goku Kaioken be more effective than SSJG Blue?!!

Post by buutenks » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:54 am

Funny ^^ .

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