Vegeta becoming SSGSS

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Kishido
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Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Kishido » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:27 am

I think we really need a thread for this one... It's still strange how Vegeta without ritual was able to get God Ki and reach the same level as Goku without ever absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God.

Yeah I read Herms theory about it and it still makes no sense for me... If Herms theory would be true than Goku after losing his SSG form against Beerus but still absorbing the power should have blue hair as Super Saiyan.

What are your theories about it?

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sintzu
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by sintzu » Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:51 pm

No one said a Saiyan can't reach it on their own so it looks like the ritual is the easy way to do it while training with Whis or someone similar is the hard and longer way.
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Hot Rod » Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:22 pm

Since I don't take Dragon Ball Super canon (the re-telling part), I like to say the ritual was made off-screen for Vegeta. It's way much better to think that way.

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:27 pm

While Vegeta served as Beerus' maid, he had to wipe his booty so much, the constant grinding developed those forearm and bicep muscles. Thus, a SSGSS was born.
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:28 pm

I think you probably care more about consistency in the story than those writing and animating it. Vegeta keeping up with Goku's power was more important to the story than sticking to their highly specific and seemingly arbitrary rules for becoming a SSJG, so they had to go.

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:55 pm

It makes sense if you don't take God ki seriously. I mean if Freeza can somehow get to his new form just by training for 4 months, Super Saiyan God was nothing more than just a short cut, and by extension, Vegeta achieving the same form as Goku is not anything special like it should have been.
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Kishido
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Kishido » Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:03 pm

sintzu wrote:No one said a Saiyan can't reach it on their own so it looks like the ritual is the easy way to do it while training with Whis or someone similar is the hard and longer way.
It still makes no sense... Goku absorbed the SSG power... Vegeta never has done it.

On the other way around... if Goku has absorbed it why he haven't the blue hair against the Berus after he turned Super Saiyan?

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sintzu
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by sintzu » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:27 pm

Kishido wrote:
It still makes no sense... Goku absorbed the SSG power... Vegeta never has done it.

On the other way around... if Goku has absorbed it why he haven't the blue hair against the Berus after he turned Super Saiyan?
Goku absorbing it meant that he didn't have to train in order to get it unlike Vegeta who trained for 10 months with Whis.

When Goku fought Beerus he had the power but not the form which means he was a normal Ssj with normal Ki except it was really strong Ki thanks to him getting a power boost from the form.

The way I see the Blue hair form which is how it was explained in Super is that it's a form of Ssjg that is reached by the Saiyan without the need for the ritual.

In other words there are 2 Ssjg forms : red which is reached by the ritual and Blue which is reached without the ritual.

In terms of power I think they're both the same and that the power the user gains from them depends on his base form which is what Toriyama said in an interview.
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:31 pm

Kishido wrote:
sintzu wrote:No one said a Saiyan can't reach it on their own so it looks like the ritual is the easy way to do it while training with Whis or someone similar is the hard and longer way.
It still makes no sense... Goku absorbed the SSG power... Vegeta never has done it.

On the other way around... if Goku has absorbed it why he haven't the blue hair against the Berus after he turned Super Saiyan?
I always liked to think that he absorbed the God ki but in his SSJ form he just had the strength of SSG but couldn't heal himself. During Goku's and Vegetas training he passed on the Ki to Vegeta (the magic bro fist in the anime) and Whis showed them how to bring out SSG's full power in SSJ healing abilities and all thus turning it blue. Something happened when they done that bro fist, I'm not sure if it was at that moment the Ki was passed or they learned how to bring it out. I'm guessing after Freeza's death the cast will be questioning the form.

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:34 pm

sintzu wrote:
Kishido wrote:
It still makes no sense... Goku absorbed the SSG power... Vegeta never has done it.

On the other way around... if Goku has absorbed it why he haven't the blue hair against the Berus after he turned Super Saiyan?
Goku absorbing it meant that he didn't have to train in order to get it unlike Vegeta who trained for 10 months with Whis.

When Goku fought Beerus he had the power but not the form which means he was a normal Ssj with normal Ki except it was really strong Ki thanks to him getting a power boost from the form.

The way I see the Blue hair form which is how it was explained in Super is that it's a form of Ssjg that is reached by the Saiyan without the need for the ritual.

In other words there are 2 Ssjg forms : red which is reached by the ritual and Blue which is reached without the ritual.

In terms of power I think they're both the same and that the power the user gains from them depends on his base form which is what Toriyama said in an interview.
Unless it was a miss translation I think Goku stated he attained something called Super Saiyan God with the help of friends, and is cut off by Frieza and he says this form is stronger because you attained it on your own which Goku agrees to.

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sintzu
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by sintzu » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:45 pm

Xeztin wrote:During Goku's and Vegetas training he passed on the Ki to Vegeta.
Vegeta had god Ki before Goku got there cause when Whis was approaching with Goku, Vegeta could sense him coming then the Oracle fish said "you can sense god Ki now".
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by LightBing » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:55 pm

From what I gather from Super, one can access God Ki if he's strong enough. Vegeta gets much stronger and starts to pick up Whis ki. Later in the episode Whis says:

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

Later we see Goku and Vegeta perceiving SSB while sparring, which just means they've reached the realm Whis mentions and can now access SSB, which gives them a slight boost.
The ritual is the easy way of doing it. It's not a necessity and for me it's not weird Vegeta getting God Ki without it.

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Kishido » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:35 pm

Than I even less understand Super Saiyan God and the red hair.

Where is the difference between needing one ritual to reaching it and doing it on your own.
Why now blue hair? Wh bi red hair in their regular form whe powering up?

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by LightBing » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:13 pm

Kishido wrote:Than I even less understand Super Saiyan God and the red hair.

Where is the difference between needing one ritual to reaching it and doing it on your own.
Why now blue hair? Wh bi red hair in their regular form whe powering up?
SSB is only comparable to SSG by it's God Ki. It doesn't share the muscle loss nor the youthful appearance. They are different transformations. That's why Vegeta didn't need the ritual and why Goku didn't turned into a SSG when he again gained God Ki. The different hairs colors are just because they're different transformations.

Basically:
SSG - Transformation that creates an artificial God, temporally. Can only be achieved by ritual.

SSB- Transformation that allows a non-God, to become a God. Achieved by reaching a certain plateau of strength and training(Whis guidance played an important part).

SSG only gave Goku a huge power boost, he had to train the same way as Vegeta to be a SSB. That's why in Super they made Vegeta train alone with Whis to get that strong, while Goku was doing farm work. Vegeta needed to catch up.

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by whitetop » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:59 pm

Kishido wrote:I think we really need a thread for this one... It's still strange how Vegeta without ritual was able to get God Ki and reach the same level as Goku without ever absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God.

Yeah I read Herms theory about it and it still makes no sense for me... If Herms theory would be true than Goku after losing his SSG form against Beerus but still absorbing the power should have blue hair as Super Saiyan.

What are your theories about it?

In F they all joined since they was told it was the only way, 5 Super Saiyan, but when Vegito and goku was training time was slow? (just like the time capsule) this being taking less time than it did for frezza to get gold form, plus remember Vegito was training before goku son got there, so Vegito was higher than goku son but people must miss that part.

Plus there was a time gap of how Vegito got to training with whis - (could be a new part of a movie?)

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Kishido » Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:07 pm

LightBing wrote:
Kishido wrote:Than I even less understand Super Saiyan God and the red hair.

Where is the difference between needing one ritual to reaching it and doing it on your own.
Why now blue hair? Wh bi red hair in their regular form whe powering up?
SSB is only comparable to SSG by it's God Ki. It doesn't share the muscle loss nor the youthful appearance. They are different transformations. That's why Vegeta didn't need the ritual and why Goku didn't turned into a SSG when he again gained God Ki. The different hairs colors are just because they're different transformations.

Basically:
SSG - Transformation that creates an artificial God, temporally. Can only be achieved by ritual.

SSB- Transformation that allows a non-God, to become a God. Achieved by reaching a certain plateau of strength and training(Whis guidance played an important part).

SSG only gave Goku a huge power boost, he had to train the same way as Vegeta to be a SSB. That's why in Super they made Vegeta train alone with Whis to get that strong, while Goku was doing farm work. Vegeta needed to catch up.
Well I like this one... But now t bothers me... Why they HAVE TO turn Super Saiyan after all to become a god? All the training they have done was without turning Super Saiyan and getting to god level.

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Herms » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:24 pm

The fancy six-Saiyans-holding-hands ritual is one way of getting "god ki"...but not the only one. I think we can take that for granted. After all, Beerus is a god with fancy god ki, but obviously he never held hands with a bunch of Saiyans. However, he did train under Whis, we know that. So it's straightforward to assume that Beerus gained his god ki by training with Whis. Therefore, Vegeta likewise trains under Whis and likewise gains god ki. Easy peasey.

The ritual is a quickie way of gaining god ki, while training under Whis is a (slightly) longer way of getting it. Goku took the quick way, while Vegeta didn't want to hold hands with anyone, and so opted for the second method.

See also: drinking the Super God Water vs training under Mister Popo. Goku drank the water and got strong all at once (though he was told he could potentially get just as strong through years of training), then after that trained under Popo and got even stronger. Other characters never drank the water, but trained with Popo and got even stronger than Goku had by drinking the water+Popo training. Water=ritual, Popo=Whis. Not a perfect analogy, but I think the underlying principle is the same.
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by NeoKING » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:47 pm

Super Saiyan God = Having a muscular body

Ritual = Creatine / Steroids

Goku + Ritual = A regular person having to take creatine / steroids to attain a muscular body = Does not like AKA "cheating"

Authentic Training = A regular person training in the gym for lean mean natural muscle

Vegeta + Authentic Training = Regular person training for a muscular body and attains it = Super Saiyan God w/o Ritual

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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:29 pm

Herms wrote:The fancy six-Saiyans-holding-hands ritual is one way of getting "god ki"...but not the only one. I think we can take that for granted. After all, Beerus is a god with fancy god ki, but obviously he never held hands with a bunch of Saiyans. However, he did train under Whis, we know that. So it's straightforward to assume that Beerus gained his god ki by training with Whis. Therefore, Vegeta likewise trains under Whis and likewise gains god ki. Easy peasey.

The ritual is a quickie way of gaining god ki, while training under Whis is a (slightly) longer way of getting it. Goku took the quick way, while Vegeta didn't want to hold hands with anyone, and so opted for the second method.

See also: drinking the Super God Water vs training under Mister Popo. Goku drank the water and got strong all at once (though he was told he could potentially get just as strong through years of training), then after that trained under Popo and got even stronger. Other characters never drank the water, but trained with Popo and got even stronger than Goku had by drinking the water+Popo training. Water=ritual, Popo=Whis. Not a perfect analogy, but I think the underlying principle is the same.
Yes and another thing to add to that was the ki-sensing ability. After Goku drank the God Water he was suddenly able to sense King Piccolo's ki.. But didn't fully master it until after his training with Mr. Popo (the longer way)
A call back maybe? There are many similarities between these 2 cases afterall.
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Re: Vegeta becoming SSGSS

Post by Low Tone G » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:09 pm

For me, the explanation sounds like this: It did happpen for Vegeta to become a SSGSS(Super Saiyan Blue) but it doesn't make sense, when the boost is way too big for the time that has been past. Introducing those feets(Beerus being enough powerful to destroy the whole universe by simply clashing with SSj-God Goku) in Super makes the whole issue even more incredible. I would have accepted it with original BOG movie feats because it didn't really seem such a boost, but now from a Solar System buster to a universe level in 10 months is way to much to swallow.
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