Goku with weighted clothing in the 23rd Budokai was stated to already be superior to the Goku that beat King Piccolo in all categories... aside from speed, which was the same as before. Tenshinhan was faster than weighted Goku, who had to remove the weights in order to beat him, so he almost certainly should be above the Goku that beat King Piccolo and Piccolo himself.3. Where are you getting this? How do you know Tenshinhan is unbelievably stronger than King Piccolo? You realise that Both Goku and Piccolo had reached battle powers in the 400's by BoZ. So it is perfectly fine to have Tenshinhan that low. What in the story states Tenshinhan surpassed King Piccolo? Goku pretty much took Tenshinhan a part during the tournament. With plenty of energy to spare. Piccolo also was still stronger than Tenshinhan despite losing a lot of energy during his fight with Goku. So Tenshinhan probably didn't get much stronger than the 180 that was recorded when he fought Goku.
GT Power Levels explain DB Super
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Tenshinhan being faster doesn't necessarily mean that he is above King Piccolo in terms of battle power. Just like how Burta claims he is the fastest in the universe when he is comparable to Recoom and Jheese in terms of battle power yet he is clearly faster than the two even Jheese notes the speed difference between him and Burta.Neon Z wrote:Goku with weighted clothing in the 23rd Budokai was stated to already be superior to the Goku that beat King Piccolo in all categories... aside from speed, which was the same as before. Tenshinhan was faster than weighted Goku, who had to remove the weights in order to beat him, so he almost certainly should be above the Goku that beat King Piccolo and Piccolo himself.3. Where are you getting this? How do you know Tenshinhan is unbelievably stronger than King Piccolo? You realise that Both Goku and Piccolo had reached battle powers in the 400's by BoZ. So it is perfectly fine to have Tenshinhan that low. What in the story states Tenshinhan surpassed King Piccolo? Goku pretty much took Tenshinhan a part during the tournament. With plenty of energy to spare. Piccolo also was still stronger than Tenshinhan despite losing a lot of energy during his fight with Goku. So Tenshinhan probably didn't get much stronger than the 180 that was recorded when he fought Goku.
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
I have to be honest, I'm not understanding why people have such weird issues with scaling and multipliers in GT. They are pretty simple to be honest.
Goku and Vegeta are approximately equal minus Vegeta's in ability to hit SSJ3. So both bases would be 1.
Goku SSJ3 X400
Vegeta SSJ2 x 100
Now from what I have read they had targeted Babi's power alone at approximately X400 Goku/Vegeta's base when he possessed Vegeta.
Hence why he could over power him.
Due to the lack of knowledge we can only infer power levels based on Babi Vegeta going toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku.
Goku was not completely overwhelmed so it was likely Vegetas and Babis power levels were additive.
I.E. Vegeta x100 + Babi x400 = x500. Which would have been enough to beat X400 SSJ3 form but not completely overwhelm.
This can be seen by watching the battle where Babi Vegeta is blocking SS3J Goku's Attacks.
Now SSJ4 IS NOT NOT NOT x10 SSJ3. If it was then Goku would have completely overwhelmed Babi Vegeta.
Instead they fought well with Goku getting an edge. This implies the SSJ1 multiplier and Ape form multiplier.
x50 X x 10 = X500 for SSJ4 (base none full power)
When babi goes Great Ape we see hin gain the multipler as well but it only be on Vegetas base and additive to Babi x400 so X900
However we see Goku going (Full Power) SSJ4 which if it has a same or similar multiplier to SSJ2 would put Goku SSJ4 Full Power at x1000 base and enough to beat Babi Vegeta in Ape form.
This is the ONLY multiplier formula that 1) makes sense and 2) doesn't use fanboy nonsense which is NOT part of official canon, I.e x10 SSJ3 equals SSJ4 nonsense
Goku and Vegeta are approximately equal minus Vegeta's in ability to hit SSJ3. So both bases would be 1.
Goku SSJ3 X400
Vegeta SSJ2 x 100
Now from what I have read they had targeted Babi's power alone at approximately X400 Goku/Vegeta's base when he possessed Vegeta.
Hence why he could over power him.
Due to the lack of knowledge we can only infer power levels based on Babi Vegeta going toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku.
Goku was not completely overwhelmed so it was likely Vegetas and Babis power levels were additive.
I.E. Vegeta x100 + Babi x400 = x500. Which would have been enough to beat X400 SSJ3 form but not completely overwhelm.
This can be seen by watching the battle where Babi Vegeta is blocking SS3J Goku's Attacks.
Now SSJ4 IS NOT NOT NOT x10 SSJ3. If it was then Goku would have completely overwhelmed Babi Vegeta.
Instead they fought well with Goku getting an edge. This implies the SSJ1 multiplier and Ape form multiplier.
x50 X x 10 = X500 for SSJ4 (base none full power)
When babi goes Great Ape we see hin gain the multipler as well but it only be on Vegetas base and additive to Babi x400 so X900
However we see Goku going (Full Power) SSJ4 which if it has a same or similar multiplier to SSJ2 would put Goku SSJ4 Full Power at x1000 base and enough to beat Babi Vegeta in Ape form.
This is the ONLY multiplier formula that 1) makes sense and 2) doesn't use fanboy nonsense which is NOT part of official canon, I.e x10 SSJ3 equals SSJ4 nonsense
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Doesn't the GT perfect files even say Vegetto is as strong as SSJ4 Goku though. So I'm still doubt that SSJ4 Goku in GT Series could beat SSJB Goku in DBS
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Tien was confident in beating goku, even after sensing how strong he has become , even after he could easily destroy daimao easily.Hitiro wrote:Tenshinhan being faster doesn't necessarily mean that he is above King Piccolo in terms of battle power. Just like how Burta claims he is the fastest in the universe when he is comparable to Recoom and Jheese in terms of battle power yet he is clearly faster than the two even Jheese notes the speed difference between him and Burta.Neon Z wrote:Goku with weighted clothing in the 23rd Budokai was stated to already be superior to the Goku that beat King Piccolo in all categories... aside from speed, which was the same as before. Tenshinhan was faster than weighted Goku, who had to remove the weights in order to beat him, so he almost certainly should be above the Goku that beat King Piccolo and Piccolo himself.3. Where are you getting this? How do you know Tenshinhan is unbelievably stronger than King Piccolo? You realise that Both Goku and Piccolo had reached battle powers in the 400's by BoZ. So it is perfectly fine to have Tenshinhan that low. What in the story states Tenshinhan surpassed King Piccolo? Goku pretty much took Tenshinhan a part during the tournament. With plenty of energy to spare. Piccolo also was still stronger than Tenshinhan despite losing a lot of energy during his fight with Goku. So Tenshinhan probably didn't get much stronger than the 180 that was recorded when he fought Goku.
BoZ Tien is 5 years training from that. Tien (before increasing speed) was matching goku blow to blow while saying he got much stronger, and he compared that to daimao killing goku.
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
It's actually the anime comic for the Goku Jr GT TV Special, which aired between the Baby and Super 17 arcs, that implies that Super Vegetto may be as strong as, or possibly even stronger, than SSJ4 Goku. Emphasis on "implies".Captain Strawberry wrote:Doesn't the GT perfect files even say Vegetto is as strong as SSJ4 Goku though. So I'm still doubt that SSJ4 Goku in GT Series could beat SSJB Goku in DBS
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Are you implying...that people can think differently? Blasphemy! Don't you know by now that everyone must abide by this secondary material? Furthermore, they must interpret it how as SS Vegetto being stronger than SS4 Goku, otherwise, they're nothing more than biased GT fanboys. I thought this was the norm by now.Lord Beerus wrote:It's actually the anime comic for the Goku Jr GT TV Special, which aired between the Baby and Super 17 arcs, that implies that Super Vegetto may be as strong as, or possibly even stronger, than SSJ4 Goku. Emphasis on "implies".
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
I actually agree with this based on a fusion calculation I found elsewhere.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Are you implying...that people can think differently? Blasphemy! Don't you know by now that everyone must abide by this secondary material? Furthermore, they must interpret it how as SS Vegetto being stronger than SS4 Goku, otherwise, they're nothing more than biased GT fanboys. I thought this was the norm by now.Lord Beerus wrote:It's actually the anime comic for the Goku Jr GT TV Special, which aired between the Baby and Super 17 arcs, that implies that Super Vegetto may be as strong as, or possibly even stronger, than SSJ4 Goku. Emphasis on "implies".
The formula was based on the restrictions and feats associated with each user.
Fusion Dance = (A Current Power Level) + (B Current Power Level) X 2
Earring Fusion: = (A Potential Power Level) + (B Potential Power Level) x 2
Based on Vegitto's Earring Fusion (Base X 100 SSJ2 Vegeta "at Least") + ( Base x 400 SS3 Goku) X times 2 = (x100+x400)2 = x1000
IF we look at my previous multipliers which have proven consistent in BOTH GT and DBZ then SSJ4 base would only be X500 and even full power could only be x1000
Furthermore Vegeta's potential would likely be above X100 just due to his power flux but in ability to hit SSJ3 which would push the Vegitto form beyond SSJ4 full power.
Now, this does not mean I think Vegitto is actually MORE powerful than SSJ4 at all. Rather that the Vegitto FORM is more powerful than SSJ4.
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Now, on multipliers:
- SS gohan = 15
Base vegeta = 3
SS vegeta = 30
Baby vegeta = 60
SBV = 120
SBV2 = 160
Ozaru baby = 10x vegeta + baby = 400
Majuub = 120 ??
Base goku = 20
SS goku = 40
SS3 goku = 60
SS4 goku = 400 = 10x SS
_____________
But in super 17 arc:
Majuub = 120
Vegeta (SS or SS2 ??) = 150
Goku = 200
______________
But in shadow dragon arc:
Vegeta SS4 = 1500
Goku SS4 (beyond limit) = 1500
Syn shenron = 1200
Omega = 12000
SS4 gogeta = 30,000
_________________________________________________
So, SS4 gogeta is ONLY 1500x BASE GT goku. Why? Simple, GT can't have consistent multipliers except great ape form.
- SS gohan = 15
Base vegeta = 3
SS vegeta = 30
Baby vegeta = 60
SBV = 120
SBV2 = 160
Ozaru baby = 10x vegeta + baby = 400
Majuub = 120 ??
Base goku = 20
SS goku = 40
SS3 goku = 60
SS4 goku = 400 = 10x SS
_____________
But in super 17 arc:
Majuub = 120
Vegeta (SS or SS2 ??) = 150
Goku = 200
______________
But in shadow dragon arc:
Vegeta SS4 = 1500
Goku SS4 (beyond limit) = 1500
Syn shenron = 1200
Omega = 12000
SS4 gogeta = 30,000
_________________________________________________
So, SS4 gogeta is ONLY 1500x BASE GT goku. Why? Simple, GT can't have consistent multipliers except great ape form.
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
I took it that ssj4 is more than 10x simply based off bebi going oozaru and only equaling ssj4 goku,while without oozaru he got his ass handed to him.TheMikado wrote:I have to be honest, I'm not understanding why people have such weird issues with scaling and multipliers in GT. They are pretty simple to be honest.
Goku and Vegeta are approximately equal minus Vegeta's in ability to hit SSJ3. So both bases would be 1.
Goku SSJ3 X400
Vegeta SSJ2 x 100
Now from what I have read they had targeted Babi's power alone at approximately X400 Goku/Vegeta's base when he possessed Vegeta.
Hence why he could over power him.
Due to the lack of knowledge we can only infer power levels based on Babi Vegeta going toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku.
Goku was not completely overwhelmed so it was likely Vegetas and Babis power levels were additive.
I.E. Vegeta x100 + Babi x400 = x500. Which would have been enough to beat X400 SSJ3 form but not completely overwhelm.
This can be seen by watching the battle where Babi Vegeta is blocking SS3J Goku's Attacks.
Now SSJ4 IS NOT NOT NOT x10 SSJ3. If it was then Goku would have completely overwhelmed Babi Vegeta.
Instead they fought well with Goku getting an edge. This implies the SSJ1 multiplier and Ape form multiplier.
x50 X x 10 = X500 for SSJ4 (base none full power)
When babi goes Great Ape we see hin gain the multipler as well but it only be on Vegetas base and additive to Babi x400 so X900
However we see Goku going (Full Power) SSJ4 which if it has a same or similar multiplier to SSJ2 would put Goku SSJ4 Full Power at x1000 base and enough to beat Babi Vegeta in Ape form.
This is the ONLY multiplier formula that 1) makes sense and 2) doesn't use fanboy nonsense which is NOT part of official canon, I.e x10 SSJ3 equals SSJ4 nonsense
Plus ssj4 goku took bebi's most powerful attack prior to oozaru transformation and didnt even flinch.
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
None of these Power levels makes any sense or has any consistency??? Where did you even get these from?apex_pretador wrote:Now, on multipliers:
So, SS4 gogeta is ONLY 1500x BASE GT goku. Why? Simple, GT can't have consistent multipliers except great ape form.
I have a number of clips which I use as evidence.buutenks wrote:
I took it that ssj4 is more than 10x simply based off bebi going oozaru and only equaling ssj4 goku,while without oozaru he got his ass handed to him.
Plus ssj4 goku took bebi's most powerful attack prior to oozaru transformation and didnt even flinch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChCu6cnfDFc
SSJ3 Goku is clearly outmatched buy Baby is still required to block his attacks. Meaning Goku is weaker, but Not by x10 as much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggI4r9y22DE
Here we can see BASE SSJ4 Goku power is about equal to slightly above Baby with Goku obviously having a fighters edge. I have no idea why it hurts when he takes punches from Baby but no Damage on his most powerful attack. The most I can guess is some sort of last minute shield since the ground underneath him is still intact.
This would make since with the SSJ3 x400 SSJ4 = x500 with Baby being between those two numbers is not closer to the x500 range. I would argue base SSJ4 and baby are equal but Goku has an actual fighting and experience edge.
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
He wasn't actually hurt by taking the punches. In the original dialogue for the anime, Rou Kaioushin states that Goku's hardly using any of his power when fighting Bebi, and then in both the original and the dub, Goku establishes that he was playing along with Bebi's attacks, pretending to act like the punches were actually hurting him, when in reality they weren't doing much anything.TheMikado wrote: Here we can see BASE SSJ4 Goku power is about equal to slightly above Baby with Goku obviously having a fighters edge. I have no idea why it hurts when he takes punches from Baby but no Damage on his most powerful attack. The most I can guess is some sort of last minute shield since the ground underneath him is still intact.
Episode 35
Time: 9m20s
Context: As Soguroko is cheering Goku on
Kibitoshin: "But still, Baby is doing well too. He's fighting toe-to-toe against Super Saiyan 4 Goku!"
Elder Kaioshin: "What are you looking at? Watch closely! Goku isn't using even a smidgen of his power."
Kibitoshin: "Y-you mean it?"
Elder Kaioshin: "What is he thinking!? Why doesn't he get serious and fight!?"
So it's clear that Bebi Vegeta being "even" with Goku is simply because Goku's not even trying against him at that point, and that Bebi is only "even" with the "smidgen" of power that Goku was bothering to use.Episode 35
Time: around 10m30s
Context: After Goku and Baby take a breather
Goku: "Sorry about that. Even I am surprised...at my overwhelming strength."
Baby: "W-what?!"
Goku: "Your punches are tickling me!"
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Unfortunately the video clearly shows blood on Goku's lip from Bebi's punches so it's clear his hits were in fact doing some amount of damage unless Goku can also fake bloody wounds as well.Darkprince410 wrote:
He wasn't actually hurt by taking the punches. In the original dialogue for the anime, Rou Kaioushin states that Goku's hardly using any of his power when fighting Bebi, and then in both the original and the dub, Goku establishes that he was playing along with Bebi's attacks, pretending to act like the punches were actually hurting him, when in reality they weren't doing much anything.
Episode 35
Time: 9m20s
Context: As Soguroko is cheering Goku on
Kibitoshin: "But still, Baby is doing well too. He's fighting toe-to-toe against Super Saiyan 4 Goku!"
Elder Kaioshin: "What are you looking at? Watch closely! Goku isn't using even a smidgen of his power."
Kibitoshin: "Y-you mean it?"
Elder Kaioshin: "What is he thinking!? Why doesn't he get serious and fight!?"So it's clear that Bebi Vegeta being "even" with Goku is simply because Goku's not even trying against him at that point, and that Bebi is only "even" with the "smidgen" of power that Goku was bothering to use.Episode 35
Time: around 10m30s
Context: After Goku and Baby take a breather
Goku: "Sorry about that. Even I am surprised...at my overwhelming strength."
Baby: "W-what?!"
Goku: "Your punches are tickling me!"
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Because he was suppressing his strength and lowering his guard to let himself get hit. We've seen before where if an individual lowers their power/guard, they can take damage from attacks they normally wouldn't if they were actually trying. Vegeta vs. #19, Vegeta vs. Cell's 2nd form, Goku vs. Sorbet's laser, etc. We even see Goku intentionally drop his guard and give a smirk to Bebi in the midst of being pummeled, further supporting that he wasn't even trying to defend against the blows, because he knows they couldn't do any real damage to him whatsoever.TheMikado wrote:Unfortunately the video clearly shows blood on Goku's lip from Bebi's punches so it's clear his hits were in fact doing some amount of damage unless Goku can also fake bloody wounds as well.Darkprince410 wrote:
He wasn't actually hurt by taking the punches. In the original dialogue for the anime, Rou Kaioushin states that Goku's hardly using any of his power when fighting Bebi, and then in both the original and the dub, Goku establishes that he was playing along with Bebi's attacks, pretending to act like the punches were actually hurting him, when in reality they weren't doing much anything.
Episode 35
Time: 9m20s
Context: As Soguroko is cheering Goku on
Kibitoshin: "But still, Baby is doing well too. He's fighting toe-to-toe against Super Saiyan 4 Goku!"
Elder Kaioshin: "What are you looking at? Watch closely! Goku isn't using even a smidgen of his power."
Kibitoshin: "Y-you mean it?"
Elder Kaioshin: "What is he thinking!? Why doesn't he get serious and fight!?"So it's clear that Bebi Vegeta being "even" with Goku is simply because Goku's not even trying against him at that point, and that Bebi is only "even" with the "smidgen" of power that Goku was bothering to use.Episode 35
Time: around 10m30s
Context: After Goku and Baby take a breather
Goku: "Sorry about that. Even I am surprised...at my overwhelming strength."
Baby: "W-what?!"
Goku: "Your punches are tickling me!"
Rou Kaioushin outright establishes that Goku wasn't using even close to his full strength, thus Bebi is only doing damage to a heavily suppressed Ssj4 Goku.
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
As I've said, in my mind, GT exists for cool non-canon characters for video games. When I learned the details of Battle of Gods' plot, that was the final nail in the coffin for GT. That series existed solely to fill the gap left by anything official existing. Now with the new films and Super, I just can't justify trying to shoehorn so many things that don't fit into the "official" (read: my head) canon. Beerus and Whis are incredible characters and have come to be some of my favorites. GT just feels... completely off without some of the things we've come to accept as essential to post-Buu era. Even if you decide to accept that for some reason they lost their ability (and memory of it, for that matter) of god power, that doesn't take away the fact that Goku and Vegeta received all that training from Whis and no longer needed Super Saiyan.
Again, this is all my opinion and if you wish to do that, great.
Again, this is all my opinion and if you wish to do that, great.
Thanos before Thanos was cool.
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
I think GT and Super are suposed to be official continuations of the tv anime (DBZ and DBKai, respectively), though they focus on different eras. I just have the impression Toriyama has more involvement with Super that he ever had with GT and probably that makes some people hold Super in a higher regard, but I could be wrong. There are people who like GT and dislike Super for the same reason other people like Super and dislike GT, but they don't automatically overwrite each other.
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Tenshinhan saying he could beat Goku literally means nothing when you consider speed as his asset. The faster fighter will always have an advantage over the slower and stronger fighter. Tenshinhan believes he can't compete with Goku's strength yet he believes he can still beat him because in his words he thought Goku had not got any faster.apex_pretador wrote:Tenshinhan was confident in beating goku, even after sensing how strong he has become , even after he could easily destroy daimao easily.
BoZ Tenshinhan is 5 years training from that. Tenshinhan (before increasing speed) was matching goku blow to blow while saying he got much stronger, and he compared that to daimao killing goku.
Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
But again, just based on how things are playing out it looks like Super and GT are linked.Thanos wrote:As I've said, in my mind, GT exists for cool non-canon characters for video games. When I learned the details of Battle of Gods' plot, that was the final nail in the coffin for GT. That series existed solely to fill the gap left by anything official existing. Now with the new films and Super, I just can't justify trying to shoehorn so many things that don't fit into the "official" (read: my head) canon. Beerus and Whis are incredible characters and have come to be some of my favorites. GT just feels... completely off without some of the things we've come to accept as essential to post-Buu era. Even if you decide to accept that for some reason they lost their ability (and memory of it, for that matter) of god power, that doesn't take away the fact that Goku and Vegeta received all that training from Whis and no longer needed Super Saiyan.
Again, this is all my opinion and if you wish to do that, great.
1) Super Starts with Emperor Pilaf who wishes himself young again and is on the road trip to see the Super Dragon Balls. In GT it starts because an elderly Emperor Pilaf somehow learned of the mysterious black star dragon balls and hasn't be after them before. These have powers that send them across the galaxy which implies they have some previous cosmic connection an he uses them to wish Goku young again. There's no way this is just coincidence. Pilaf wasn't even relevant in DBZ so to make him a core part of BOTH Super and GT sounds like an attempt at continuity.
2) It looks like the majority of the remainder of Super will take place off world meaning the events of GT can still happen since its sandwiched right inbetween.
3) I believe they will go SSJ4 in Super and both Goku and Vegeta will obtain God status but this proves too dangerous and Whis is forced to erase their memory but cannot remove their power.
This would explain Goku's insane base power level in GT.
4) I believe there is a reason SSJ God looks like normal base once you have obtained it. Furthermore I believe SSB will revert back to Yellow once its God form has been fully mastered. Again don't think SSJ God power looking like normal base is a coincidence.
5) In GT, nothing is stronger than Goku other than created android/machines and dragons. Even with that, most utilize none traditional means against Goku.
6) In GT Goku has miraculous healing powers? Goku supposedly blinded as SSJ4 but mysteriously regains his eyesight for no apparent reason. Healing power of SSG? Who knows.
7) People use the argument of the Supreme Kai's defusion as evidence however Supreme Kai say that his power substantially increased after the fusion and he still retains his dominance.
Should the Universe be threatened I could see Kai refusing again. It could also set up a circumstance where Kibito is mortally wounded and we see an emotional scene where Supreme Kai fuses with him to "save" him inside himself.
The argument of no Gold Frieza in hell has been pointed out, however we do not know the circumstances under which he is imprisoned/punished. Furthermore the point of Cell and Frieza's attack wasn't to beat/defeat him. It was to imprison him. Gold Frieza was unnecessary for what he was doing and Goku was not very imposing in his child form and actually played around without even going super Saiyan. In fact Goku never actually "beat" them physically they were ultimately imprisoned in ice using the trap they set for Goku in the first place.
I think my point is that there is enough evidence and explainable circumstances to make it possible that GT is canon and a continuation of the same main timeline and not hard enough evidence to make GT non-canon at this point. This can obviously change in the future but there have been more than enough opportunities to completely invalidate GT to the point of no return and that hasn't happened yet.
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
Current strength, which is massively higher than when he beat daimao. Also, he was much faster than goku who beat daimao.Hitiro wrote:Tenshinhan saying he could beat Goku literally means nothing when you consider speed as his asset. The faster fighter will always have an advantage over the slower and stronger fighter. Tenshinhan believes he can't compete with Goku's strength yet he believes he can still beat him because in his words he thought Goku had not got any faster.apex_pretador wrote:Tenshinhan was confident in beating goku, even after sensing how strong he has become , even after he could easily destroy daimao easily.
BoZ Tenshinhan is 5 years training from that. Tenshinhan (before increasing speed) was matching goku blow to blow while saying he got much stronger, and he compared that to daimao killing goku.
Also, power level is a combination of speed , strength & durability. It predicts who will win the fight, not the amount of ki.
So, tien 250 > tien (23rd TB) > improved goku (23rd TB, vs tien) >> Goku (vs daimao) > full power young daimao
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Re: GT Power Levels explain DB Super
interesting point, lets see:TheMikado wrote: But again, just based on how things are playing out it looks like Super and GT are linked.
But champa says that namekian made balls have limits, & super DBs don't1) Super Starts with Emperor Pilaf who wishes himself young again and is on the road trip to see the Super Dragon Balls. In GT it starts because an elderly Emperor Pilaf somehow learned of the mysterious black star dragon balls and hasn't be after them before. These have powers that send them across the galaxy which implies they have some previous cosmic connection an he uses them to wish Goku young again. There's no way this is just coincidence. Pilaf wasn't even relevant in DBZ so to make him a core part of BOTH Super and GT sounds like an attempt at continuity.
Also, ho pilaf became too old in 13 years ?
Not impossible
2) It looks like the majority of the remainder of Super will take place off world meaning the events of GT can still happen since its sandwiched right inbetween.
But vegeta said they are already near their limit, and how will they go SS4 when they don't even have tail ?3) I believe they will go SSJ4 in Super and both Goku and Vegeta will obtain God status but this proves too dangerous and Whis is forced to erase their memory but cannot remove their power.
This would explain Goku's insane base power level in GT.
Also, god forms & ozaru aren't compatible. If anything, super is going away from the GT route by removing tails of all other saiyans. Anyways, it doesn't explain how goku's base is so much stronger than vegeta's base.
SSG isn't base form, it has god ki, which can't be sensed. GT goku was being sensed fine.4) I believe there is a reason SSJ God looks like normal base once you have obtained it. Furthermore I believe SSB will revert back to Yellow once its God form has been fully mastered. Again don't think SSJ God power looking like normal base is a coincidence.
Also, if that was true, GT goku must be stronger than beerus in his SS form, means baby vegeta >>> beerus.
Baby sensing goku also proves he's not got god ki.
Also, SS gohan being massively stronger than base vegeta, well , & base gohan being weaker than SS goten when vegeta in base is millions of times stronger than goten ?
In GT, nothing is stronger than goku, because he's goku5) In GT, nothing is stronger than Goku other than created android/machines and dragons. Even with that, most utilize none traditional means against Goku.
Possible, who knows?6) In GT Goku has miraculous healing powers? Goku supposedly blinded as SSJ4 but mysteriously regains his eyesight for no apparent reason. Healing power of SSG? Who knows.
Who knows, kaioshin & kibito felt awkward due to merged, but after seperating, they felt they love each other & are made for each other by god ..., I mean by the apple tree ?7) People use the argument of the Supreme Kai's defusion as evidence however Supreme Kai say that his power substantially increased after the fusion and he still retains his dominance.
Should the Universe be threatened I could see Kai refusing again. It could also set up a circumstance where Kibito is mortally wounded and we see an emotional scene where Supreme Kai fuses with him to "save" him inside himself.
Yeah, and freeza might have trained cell to be as strong as him in his white form , thanking him for freeing him from cocoon.The argument of no Gold Freeza in hell has been pointed out, however we do not know the circumstances under which he is imprisoned/punished. Furthermore the point of Cell and Freeza's attack wasn't to beat/defeat him. It was to imprison him. Gold Freeza was unnecessary for what he was doing and Goku was not very imposing in his child form and actually played around without even going super Saiyan. In fact Goku never actually "beat" them physically they were ultimately imprisoned in ice using the trap they set for Goku in the first place.
Who knows cell had even more potential & surpassed even whis in his regular form.
EoZ is just 3 pages, which can be modified a bit & still be kept as canon, but GT seems hard.I think my point is that there is enough evidence and explainable circumstances to make it possible that GT is canon and a continuation of the same main timeline and not hard enough evidence to make GT non-canon at this point. This can obviously change in the future but there have been more than enough opportunities to completely invalidate GT to the point of no return and that hasn't happened yet.