Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

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Darkton
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Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Darkton » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:58 am

Inspired by comments on where Movie 7 takes place by KaiserNeko, I made a flowchart detailing the number of time-travel changes that could've occurred in the Cell Arc, which can be found here.
Last edited by Darkton on Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:21 am

Nope, it says 403 forbidden, with a requirement to log in, because Imgur has decided to collectively troll the entire world with their new policy.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Darkton » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:58 am

dbgtFO wrote:Nope, it says 403 forbidden, with a requirement to log in, because Imgur has decided to collectively troll the entire world with their new policy.
Was not made aware of this until just now. Hmm... methinks I need a new image host. I'm gonna give this multiple tries to see what works.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by apex_pretador » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:25 am

This?
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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by AvatarReiko » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:01 pm

Good timeline. Although, just wanted to mention that Trunks(the one that Cell killed) would have been present in "Mystery Timeline" until the part 17 and 18 emerged. That's where that timeline and the Main one would diverge. Remember, the Trunks that Cell killed killed the Cyborgs using the remote, which means that events in this timeline played out the same way as the main one e.g. Them fighting Gero and subsquently discovering the lab. Presumably, after he discovered the plans, he returned to the future and gave them to Bulma to build te remote.This what I call the unseen timeline. Cell would not have appeared in this timeline. Hence, no Cell games

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Darkton » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:01 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:Good timeline. Although, just wanted to mention that Trunks(the one that Cell killed) would have been present in "Mystery Timeline" until the part 17 and 18 emerged. That's where that timeline and the Main one would diverge. Remember, the Trunks that Cell killed killed the Cyborgs using the remote, which means that events in this timeline played out the same way as the main one e.g. Them fighting Gero and subsquently discovering the lab. Presumably, after he discovered the plans, he returned to the future and gave them to Bulma to build te remote.This what I call the unseen timeline. Cell would not have appeared in this timeline. Hence, no Cell games
Slight problem with that, though: while it is true Piccolo theorizes that Trunks came back to tell them he beat the Artificial Humans, we barely know anything about that Trunks. Remember, he didn't make the trip back; he was killed before he could.

In addition, I'm pretty sure the reason they got the plans was because Cell told Piccolo about the bunker lab where they were stored, so if Cell didn't do that then the Z-Warriors probably would've assumed that Trunks had destroyed all of Gero's lab and not look for the blueprints. That tells me Trunks beat the two in his time by bringing Goku along instead, which tells me that there's another timeline split, one where Goku disappeared and one where he left and came back. That's all been covered in the mystery section, though, since we really don't know how Trunks beat 17 and 18 in that timeline.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:49 pm

I Can't buy any of the "more then 3 timelines" ideas.

On the one hand they never appear in guides, (there was that one with 4 but that has been omitted since)

We all know Toriyama wasn't thinking of something that complex. Not that he isn't smart enough but it ain't his style.

Most of all it's totally mean spirited and defeats the whole point.

Dragonball bar a few tense moments is pretty light hearted and gag filled shonen stuff. People point to the Trunks future as being incredibly dark, it's so dark and un-db like that characters actually create a time machine to "fix" something so obviously wrong.

I'm sure ideally they wanted to change their future but IIRC Trunks tells us that Bulma, suspected (and was later proved right) that her time machine would create an alternate timeline and not directly help them.... But she did it anyway because "she thought there deserved to be a time where things were better".

Any of these theories where there are like 4-8 timelines, always have like all but one of them with the "bad ending".

It'd be totally mean spirited if Bulma's attempt to make one nice time came at the price of creating a net increase in Dark timelines...
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Darkton » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:10 pm

TobyS wrote:I Can't buy any of the "more then 3 timelines" ideas.

On the one hand they never appear in guides, (there was that one with 4 but that has been omitted since)

We all know Toriyama wasn't thinking of something that complex. Not that he isn't smart enough but it ain't his style.

Most of all it's totally mean spirited and defeats the whole point.

Dragonball bar a few tense moments is pretty light hearted and gag filled shonen stuff. People point to the Trunks future as being incredibly dark, it's so dark and un-db like that characters actually create a time machine to "fix" something so obviously wrong.

I'm sure ideally they wanted to change their future but IIRC Trunks tells us that Bulma, suspected (and was later proved right) that her time machine would create an alternate timeline and not directly help them.... But she did it anyway because "she thought there deserved to be a time where things were better".

Any of these theories where there are like 4-8 timelines, always have like all but one of them with the "bad ending".

It'd be totally mean spirited if Bulma's attempt to make one nice time came at the price of creating a net increase in Dark timelines...
A lot of these timelines are mostly unknown, actually. In fact, some of them turn out quite nice, like the one where Cell doesn't show up and the Z-Warriors defeat the Artificial Humans, then Buu happens without Goku dying beforehand. That's a pretty good one.

And I'm well aware Toriyama didn't think this through. This is just for fun on my part. I don't completely believe it.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by TobyS » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:24 pm

Sorry OP, didn't mean for my post to seem dismissive, I can see you've put a lot of thought in and it's logically well laid out and stuff.

It's a common consensus that dragonball is one of those series where "change anything and everyone dies". So the moment I hear "hey there's x additional changed timelines" my first thought is "poor z-warriors!" :lol: And that isn't what AT probably intended OOUniverse or what Bulma intended INUniverse (although that doesn't make it untrue...)

But yeah, good stuff.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:04 am

I don't think we need schemes nor alternate timelines, but we do know that there are two universes separated by time from which Trunks departs and travels to. The sad truth is that he is dead at the end, because that's what Cell told us from the time he came from, but if Trunks killed the Androids and Cell, then he must have been another. Well, the fact is: there were two Cells in the future! Remember that before one universe changed because of Trunks' interference, Cell had already arrived, so it must have been the case where Goku killed Freeza and King Cold as well. The difference lies in baby Cell being killed in the main universe, while he was alive in the other, hence why there were two of them. Now, if we're going to count the fact that Cell knew about Trunks' interference, then why can't we consider the super computer that gathered his battle data informing Cell upon arrival?

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:55 pm

Image

I made this chart just now, which deals with two universes that started the same, but were changed by Trunks' interference. If the problem is still about Cell knowing that Trunks interfered, then we could say that Dr. Gero's computer overwrote his information upon the arrival of whom Cell killed in his future. It should also explain his surprise when he found out that he was alive. This is starting to become a bit like Terminator Genisys more so than a traditional time travel story.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Darkton » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:21 am

Desassina wrote:Image

I made this chart just now, which deals with two universes that started the same, but were changed by Trunks' interference. If the problem is still about Cell knowing that Trunks interfered, then we could say that Dr. Gero's computer overwrote his information upon the arrival of whom Cell killed in his future. It should also explain his surprise when he found out that he was alive. This is starting to become a bit like Terminator Genisys more so than a traditional time travel story.
I can't see it.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Geekdom101 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:43 am

May I use this in a video?
"Allow me to show you... my further evolution"

OFFICIAL Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgIqhB ... yUSp71VCOQ

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:16 am

Darkton wrote:
Desassina wrote:Image

I made this chart just now, which deals with two universes that started the same, but were changed by Trunks' interference. If the problem is still about Cell knowing that Trunks interfered, then we could say that Dr. Gero's computer overwrote his information upon the arrival of whom Cell killed in his future. It should also explain his surprise when he found out that he was alive. This is starting to become a bit like Terminator Genisys more so than a traditional time travel story.
I can't see it.
Can't you see the image or the logic? I can send you a higher quality one, in case you're using too high of a resolution, but I bet that's not the case :P

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Saiga » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:39 am

Desassina wrote:
I made this chart just now, which deals with two universes that started the same, but were changed by Trunks' interference. If the problem is still about Cell knowing that Trunks interfered, then we could say that Dr. Gero's computer overwrote his information upon the arrival of whom Cell killed in his future. It should also explain his surprise when he found out that he was alive. This is starting to become a bit like Terminator Genisys more so than a traditional time travel story.
You seem to imply that their were two Cells in Future Trunks' timeline, and that the Trunks that is killed by the Cell who travels to the present timeline is the same Trunks we see in the main cast. That isn't the case at all, there are two different timelines where Trunks is killed by Cell in one and kills Cell in the other.

The four timeline model is the simplest one to me, it is a shame that the fourth timeline was cut from future reprints instead of elaborating on as that tied the whole thing together.

But, essentially, we're told travelling back in time creates a split timeline. Trunks did it when he fought Freeza and Cold, which created a split in the timeline that eventually lead to Cell travelling back in time. That created another split, bringing us up to three timelines.

Then Trunks does a second trip back to the past when he shows up after the timeskip. That's another split - the one we see, and the timeline as it would have been if he hadn't arrived (which leads to "a Cell Games without Trunks" as mentioned in the guidebook).
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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by rereboy » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:53 am

Here is my chart:

Image

Timeline 1: original timeline. Trunks travel back creating Timeline 2 ; (read after reading Timeline 2): After returning, Trunks defeats the androids, probably with the remote. But Cell awakens and kills Trunks. Cell travels back in time.

Timeline 2: timeline born out of Trunks time travel. Its events differ from Timeline 1 after the arrival of Freeza. They somehow defeat the androids thanks to Trunks and his help, probably using the remote to shut them off. Trunks returns to his own Timeline, probably with the remote to shut the androids off.

Timeline 3: timeline created by Cell's time travel. This timeline differs in events from Timeline 2 after the arrival of Cell, which is some time before the arrival of Freeza, but the differences are only noticeable after Cell reveals himself. Its important to note that this Timeline is created from Timeline 2, not Timeline 1, hence why it includes the different events of Timeline 2 with the added interference of Cell. This is the main timeline, the one we see in the series. Cell is killed by Gohan and Trunks returns home.

Timeline 4: timeline created by Trunks' attempt to return to Timeline 1 from Timeline 3. Since he tried to return to a point in time before Cell had time travelled, which created Timeline 3, the return of Trunks creates a brand new Timeline so that the paradox is resolved. This is why and how different Timelines are created, by the way. But they only are created when the time travel creates a paradox. Its possible to simply travel between Timelines as long as it doesn't create a paradox. For example, when Trunks returns home after warning about the androids and then simply returns later to that timeline to help against them, there's no temporal paradox, because the timeline already existed and Trunks didn't travel to a problematic moment in time. So that doesn't create a paradox nor a new Timeline. Anyway, like I was saying, Trunks attempt to return creates a new Timeline, Timeline 4. In this one, Trunks is strong enough to kill the androids and Cell with his power.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:58 am

Saiga wrote:But, essentially, we're told travelling back in time creates a split timeline. Trunks did it when he fought Freeza and Cold, which created a split in the timeline that eventually lead to Cell travelling back in time. That created another split, bringing us up to three timelines.
There's only a split from the perspective of a time traveller, who doesn't know much about the inner workings of time, and it could be different for the reader. He has only memories of something that has yet to happen, which means that the future is different from the perspective of whoever is being influenced by Trunks. That's a general time travel theory, by the way, which doesn't account for matter or universes being created with time.
You seem to imply that their were two Cells in Future Trunks' timeline, and that the Trunks that is killed by the Cell who travels to the present timeline is the same Trunks we see in the main cast. That isn't the case at all, there are two different timelines where Trunks is killed by Cell in one and kills Cell in the other.
Try to follow me: if Trunks and Krillin hadn't killed the baby Cell in the lab, how many Cells would we count in their time? Two of them, just like in Trunks' future where baby Cell went unnoticed all of those years. Who's to say that the Cell that Trunks kills after the Androids isn't the one who had always existed before Freeza and King Cold's arrival? It's an event that was bound to happen, with or without Trunks' interference, so it explains the existence of two Cells. And who's to say that when Cell came out of the lab, he didn't kill Trunks?
The four timeline model is the simplest one to me, it is a shame that the fourth timeline was cut from future reprints instead of elaborating on as that tied the whole thing together.
I'll be honest: I don't know how anyone can sit through that Youtube dude's 40 minutes video, which explains the 4 timelines theory, when they could be studying time travel theory, or watching Terminator Genisys instead. What you consider simple, I take as overly complex when the simplest theory is that Trunks was dead, because that's what Cell told us from the same time he remembered. Anything could have happened between that event and Trunks' message to Bulma in RoF, which includes him being revived.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Victorious » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:18 am

There must be at least 4 timelines because in Cell's timeline a Future Trunks kills Freeza. This is plainly shown when Cell is explaing his origins to Piccolo in Ginger Town. Goku doesnt kill Freeza in Cell's timeline. Therefore the Trunks that kills Freeza in Cell's timeline comes from a mysterious 4th timeline. Which means Cell's timeline is weird as hell,Lol. I believe the Trunks Cell kills and who's time machine he steals though was born in his timeline.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Desassina » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:55 am

That's easily explained by Cell having his memories overwritten by the super computer that was functioning by the time of Trunks' arrival. A bit like Terminator Genisys where Kyle Reese got to know his future from the perspective of a changed timeline.

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Re: Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

Post by Saiga » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:02 am

Who's to say that the Cell that Trunks kills after the Androids isn't the one who had always existed before Freeza and King Cold's arrival?
That wouldn't make sense. That would mean the Cell that killed Trunks travelled in time to Trunks timeline, killed Trunks, and then timetravelled again. The only reason there were two Cells in the present timeline is because one travelled back in time after stealing Trunks' machine. If there were two in the future timeline, then that creates an infinite loop where Cell just keeps going back in time, finding no Androids and going back in time again to repeat the exact same events.

Cell needs Trunks' time machine before there can be two Cells in one timeline. So I think it's pretty safe to say the Cell that stole Trunks' time machine came from a future where he was the only one.

Also, the Cell in the present timeline who was around before Freeza and Cold arrived was also active in the Android arc. So if he was the same Cell in Trunks' future timeline, then he'd long be active before Trunks was a grown up or could destroy the Androids. He'd be around before the Cell in Gero's lab is completed.
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