Base Cabba stronger than ssj3 Gotenks?

[Hitiro]

And yet the average of the saiyan race in the main universe was just around 1000 in power level... Even though they had decades, centuries of fighting with others and among themselves...

I would imagine back then there weren't many races strong enough to challenge the Saiyan's. In fact it is more or less implied that it was the case. The only notable Aliens during the first 20-30 years of Goku's life were specifically stated to be rare and abnormally strong. IF they were stronger than Saiyans with the exception of the Namekian race that is. Furthermore the Saiyan race in the main universe were not good guys and they didn't look after themselves. Akira Toriyama stated that Saiyans usually died young because they were constantly in battle. And I very much doubt they sparred with each other to get stronger. Heck, a minority of the Saiyan deaths could probably be attributed to in-fighting. When and if they did fight each other the other Saiyan was probably killed. From the filler, OVA's and specials alone we see that the king even slaughters his own people if they don't do their job correctly. In comparison the Saiyans of Universe 6 only battle to protect the galaxy/universe. They aren't spread out like a plague trying to capture the entire galaxy/universe like the main universe Saiyans were. And even considering this Freeza wiped them out because the race posed a threat. They were getting stronger despite all the handicaps they gave themselves.

[Tectorman]

And yet the average of the saiyan race in the main universe was just around 1000 in power level... Even though they had decades, centuries of fighting with others and among themselves...

I would imagine back then there weren't many races strong enough to challenge the Saiyan's. In fact it is more or less implied that it was the case. The only notable Aliens during the first 20-30 years of Goku's life were specifically stated to be rare and abnormally strong. IF they were stronger than Saiyans with the exception of the Namekian race that is. Furthermore the Saiyan race in the main universe were not good guys and they didn't look after themselves. Akira Toriyama stated that Saiyans usually died young because they were constantly in battle. And I very much doubt they sparred with each other to get stronger. Heck, a minority of the Saiyan deaths could probably be attributed to in-fighting. When and if they did fight each other the other Saiyan was probably killed. From the filler, OVA's and specials alone we see that the king even slaughters his own people if they don't do their job correctly. In comparison the Saiyans of Universe 6 only battle to protect the galaxy/universe. They aren't spread out like a plague trying to capture the entire galaxy/universe like the main universe Saiyans were. And even considering this Freeza wiped them out because the race posed a threat. They were getting stronger despite all the handicaps they gave themselves.

Makes sense. You pretty much cannot zenkai or otherwise improve as a warrior after a defeat if your defeat is a guaranteed death sentence. Goku is considered remarkable by multiple characters familiar with stock Saiyans (Vegeta, Ginyu, Frieza) for his unwillingness to casually murder his defeated foes. That mercy is not the norm for U7 Saiyans.

[rereboy]

And yet the average of the saiyan race in the main universe was just around 1000 in power level... Even though they had decades, centuries of fighting with others and among themselves...

I would imagine back then there weren't many races strong enough to challenge the Saiyan's. In fact it is more or less implied that it was the case. The only notable Aliens during the first 20-30 years of Goku's life were specifically stated to be rare and abnormally strong. IF they were stronger than Saiyans with the exception of the Namekian race that is. Furthermore the Saiyan race in the main universe were not good guys and they didn't look after themselves. Akira Toriyama stated that Saiyans usually died young because they were constantly in battle. And I very much doubt they sparred with each other to get stronger. Heck, a minority of the Saiyan deaths could probably be attributed to in-fighting. When and if they did fight each other the other Saiyan was probably killed. From the filler, OVA's and specials alone we see that the king even slaughters his own people if they don't do their job correctly. In comparison the Saiyans of Universe 6 only battle to protect the galaxy/universe. They aren't spread out like a plague trying to capture the entire galaxy/universe like the main universe Saiyans were. And even considering this Freeza wiped them out because the race posed a threat. They were getting stronger despite all the handicaps they gave themselves.

They don't need other races. They fight each other (they were pretty savage) and train with each other. Most of the gains of the main characters were achieved this way or even alone.

[Hitiro]

They don't need other races. They fight each other (they were pretty savage) and train with each other. Most of the gains of the main characters were achieved this way or even alone.

But as I and Tectorman said the Saiyans of U7 were ruthless and would slaughter even their own unlike Goku who was not the norm for a Saiyan. Even Raditz was going to kill off his own brother once he came to earth and found he wasn't normal. Granted he did give him a chance but I would imagine any fighting happening between the Saiyans on planet Vegeta would have been over petty things and would have lead to the death of one, if not both, of the Saiyans. A prime example is Vegeta casually killing Nappa just because he could.

[rereboy]

They don't need other races. They fight each other (they were pretty savage) and train with each other. Most of the gains of the main characters were achieved this way or even alone.

But as I and Tectorman said the Saiyans of U7 were ruthless and would slaughter even their own unlike Goku who was not the norm for a Saiyan. Even Raditz was going to kill off his own brother once he came to earth and found he wasn't normal. Granted he did give him a chance but I would imagine any fighting happening between the Saiyans on planet Vegeta would have been over petty things and would have lead to the death of one, if not both, of the Saiyans. A prime example is Vegeta casually killing Nappa just because he could.

They were savage and ruthless but they still functioned as a society. Their added savagery is only an argument for them (the ones that survive and progress) to evolve even more quickly than the good saiyans from the other universe... and yet, after decades, centuries, their average is 1000 in power level...

[Hitiro]

That's only an argument for them (the ones that survive) to evolve even more quickly than the good saiyans from the other universe... and yet, after decades, centuries, their average is 1000 in power level...

Again, like I stated, Akira Toriyama said that Saiyans usually die young because they are constantly in battle. So if they are dying all the time then their power levels will stay within a certain range. Sure there may be some who get to a decent power level over 1000 but they would soon be dead too in a couple of battles. It is completely different for U6 Saiyans who cooperate and value their lives and others. They would tend to live to see another day. In fact I think it was documented somewhere that Zenkai's were rarely a thing amongst the Saiyans because they would usually die in battle rather than survive to fight another day. Furthermore if it's just a more powerful Saiyan slaughtering a weaker one then he is obviously not going to receive any benefit from the fight.

[Cipher]

I can only fathom that Vegeta's line about being even with Cabba was simply a Toei addition -- par for the course. If one looks at the rest of the match--his immediately reacting to Cabba's request to learn Super Saiyan, the way he effortlessly take a direct punch after appearing to fight evenly beforehand--it's easy to assume he's going easy from the get-go to get Cabba riled up.

This also plays better with Cabba being in awe of Frost, though I suppose that could work either way.

[SaiyaSith]

He was chosen to take part in the Tournament so he would have to be incredibly strong. It's not really a plot hole that he's stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

There's no proof that Cabba is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Is Uub stronger than Goku because he beat up on Goku at points in the tournament? Vegeta was training Cabba just like Goku trained Uub. They're very similar episodes.

[Nejishiki]

I can only fathom that Vegeta's line about being even with Cabba was simply a Toei addition -- par for the course. If one looks at the rest of the match--his immediately reacting to Cabba's request to learn Super Saiyan, the way he effortlessly take a direct punch after appearing to fight evenly beforehand--it's easy to assume he's going easy from the get-go to get Cabba riled up.

This also plays better with Cabba being in awe of Frost, though I suppose that could work either way.

Toyotaro has Vegeta claiming Cabba is a match for himself, as well. The notes for this scenario may have been as simple as saying Vegeta praises him, because it's 2-for-2 as far as dialogue is concerned.

[Cipher]

Toyotaro has Vegeta claiming Cabba is a match for himself, as well. The notes for this scenario may have been as simple as saying Vegeta praises him, because it's 2-for-2 as far as dialogue is concerned.

Oops! Haven't read that chapter.

Well then. My life will just have to go on.

[pacz360]

He was chosen to take part in the Tournament so he would have to be incredibly strong. It's not really a plot hole that he's stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

There's no proof that Cabba is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Is Uub stronger than Goku because he beat up on Goku at points in the tournament? Vegeta was training Cabba just like Goku trained Uub. They're very similar episodes.

Vegeta said himself cabba is match to his base form and base vegeta>>>>ssj3 gotenks theres nothing that contradicts

[SaiyaSith]

He was chosen to take part in the Tournament so he would have to be incredibly strong. It's not really a plot hole that he's stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

There's no proof that Cabba is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Is Uub stronger than Goku because he beat up on Goku at points in the tournament? Vegeta was training Cabba just like Goku trained Uub. They're very similar episodes.

Vegeta said himself cabba is match to his base form and base vegeta>>>>ssj3 gotenks theres nothing that contradicts

He also said he was going to destroy his planet, but it wasn't true, he was just helping him train. It's homage to the Goku and Uub episode where Goku pretty much does the same thing.

[Captain Strawberry]

I don't think you need to look at this logically. Super doesn't make sense in general.

But yeah, Base Cabba is above Gotenks and most of the guys from the Boo saga.

Well you have to factor in Whis's training. The whole thinking faster than your body.

[Hitiro]

He also said he was going to destroy his planet, but it wasn't true, he was just helping him train. It's homage to the Goku and Uub episode where Goku pretty much does the same thing.

I think your splitting hairs here. Just because he said he was going to destroy Cabba's planet to rile Cabba does not mean his statement that Cabba matches his strength has any less merit. There was no benefit in him saying Cabba is a match for him. And if he was stronger than Cabba he certainly wouldn't have needed to use SSJBlue to take him out. I understand he would want to show him the form to give the guy something to strive towards but he could have just turned it off and knocked him out in just SSJ if you think he is stronger than Cabba.

Goku also never said that Oob was on par with him during the fight.

[AvatarReiko]

I will never be able to fuly wrap my head around the idea of base Cabba being this absurdly strong. Even Goku and Vegeta never surpassed Frieza in base and they abused the hell out of Zenki and trained like crazy. Yet, without ssj, Cabba could literally pimp slap characters suchas as Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku.

[TheMikado]

I will never be able to fuly wrap my head around the idea of base Cabba being this absurdly strong. Even Goku and Vegeta never surpassed Frieza in base and they abused the hell out of Zenki and trained like crazy. Yet, without ssj, Cabba could literally pimp slap characters suchas as Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku.

To be honest I think what has happened is that in retrospect the writers have completely condensed the power scaling to the power where it feels like Cell was only 10% stronger than Frieza and maybe Buu being only 30% stronger than that. If you scale everyone's power level like that. SSJ Goku/Frieza= 1 Cell = 1.2 Buu = 1.5, then suddenly Piccolo being like a 1.5/2 doesn't look so absurd nor does the Cabba random super strength.

[RandomGuy96]

I will never be able to fuly wrap my head around the idea of base Cabba being this absurdly strong. Even Goku and Vegeta never surpassed Frieza in base and they abused the hell out of Zenki and trained like crazy. Yet, without ssj, Cabba could literally pimp slap characters suchas as Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku.

Maybe not. Vegeta tanked a punch to the head from Cabba without budging when they were in equal forms. His head didn't even move a bit, if anything it was less of an effect than Gotenks' kick had on base Vegeta, that at least budged his head. So it seems like his talk of them being equal in base was a lie to motivate Cabba. Aside from that, all we have is Cabba implying he's superior to Goku's initial base strength (implied to be well below his full on a couple of occasions) and him saying Frost is a superior hand to hand fighter compared to him, when he was seemingly only aware of Frost's first form (he's as surprised as Champa when he switches forms). Although even being within striking distance of first form Frost, when Frost's third form is supposedly Ultimate Gohan level to be on par with base Goku and stronger than the new Piccolo (who fought evenly with what seemed to be a weakened Ultimate Gohan), would be pretty ridiculous.

But that's Toei for you. A similar thing happened in GT. In the Super manga we don't see base Goku or Vegeta do anything to indicate they're significantly stronger than before, like base Goku owning final form Freeza after 1st form Freeza proves himself the superior of SS Gohan, nor do we see Piccolo training with Ultimate-ish Gohan, so we're just left to assume that they're not much stronger than they were in the Buu arc. In that case Cabba, Botamo, and Frost (disregarding his hard to control final form that he apparently never uses) would all be weaker than Namek Freeza.

[ahill1]

So the new Piccolo is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks?

[RandomGuy96]

So the new Piccolo is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks?

Fighting evenly with Ultimate-ish Gohan and surviving for a while against a tired Frost (who was at least strong enough to give base Vegeta trouble, otherwise he wouldn't have transformed), as well as potentially being able to beat that same Frost with a x3.5 amplified attack, would suggest that, yes. Or at least that they're around the same level.

[Captain Strawberry]

Slightly unrelated, the manga has less plotholes and less headcanons.