Calculating the Formula for Fusion

[shadowfox87]

Ok, so for the longest time, there has been the debate of how Fusion works. On page 63 of the Super Exciting Guide, it stated that Vegito=Goku x Vegeta. This caused everyone to assume that Fusion is a multiplication of power levels and not addition or some other formula. I will now prove why this is wrong. Vegito=Goku x Vegeta was not meant to be about power levels but implying that Vegito is the fusion of Goku and Vegeta.

In the 2004 V-Jump, it was already published that SSJ Gogeta's power level is 2.5 billion=2.5 x 10^9. We already know that both Goku and Vegeta have a base power level far exceeding that of 1 million=1 x 10^6. If we now try to multiply a million times a million, we get: (1 x 10^6)(1 x 10^6)=1 x 10^12. This far beyond SSJ Gogeta and would hence, make absolutely no sense.

If you are going to argue that the formula for Vegito is different from Gogeta, I disagree. The power level of Vegito=Gogeta. The only difference is that Gogeta defuses after 30 mins while Vegito is permanent. Hence, in a real fight between Vegito and Gogeta, Vegito would always win because he wouldn't defuse. The energy derived from fusion is based on the energy of the characters fusing. Since the ingredients don't change, neither should the total energy or power level.

The only power level mentioned in the Buu Saga was based on Kili. During the fight between Goku and Yakon, Babidi stated Goku to have 3000 kili. V-Jump also published Cooler's power level at 470 million, which is approximately 4 times stronger than Freeza from Namek. Since SSJ Goku beat Cooler, we can assume that his power level >470 million before the Android Saga. Then Goku further ascended SSJ to ASSJ to FPSSJ. According to the Super Exciting Guide, SSJ2 is 2x SSJ, meaning that FPSSJ of less than 2x or 1.5x SSJ. So let us assume that SSJ Goku is 850 million and SSJ Vegeta is 820 milliion. Then FPSSJ Goku=850 x 1.5=1.3 billion and FPSSJ Vegeta=820x1.5=1.2 billion. Then 1.3 billion+1.2 billion=2.5 billion which is the exact power level of SSJ Gogeta. Hence, I think that Fusion is an addition and not a multiplication.

The only assumption made here were the power levels of SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta during the Buu saga.

[Anime Kitten]

Interesting... and also very confusing.

[shadowfox87]

Interesting... and also very confusing.

Haha, it was for me at first, but I think it makes sense and uses most of the numbers from the Databooks.

[Anime Kitten]

Haha, it was for me at first, but I think it makes sense and uses most of the numbers from the Databooks.

Probably more reliable than Toriyama's memory, unfortunately...

[LightBing]

I disagree. Vegetto and Gogeta are different because of the different methods. Potara is magic, it isn't supposed to be predictable. Look at Old Kai and the Witch, while we don't know how strong he was before, at very least he had to be above an attendant like Kibito. So fusing in this case made him much weaker. While Goku+Vegeta had amazing results.

Fusion, yes I think there's a formula. Because it has rules: same size, same power and the fact that Goku made a prediction of it's result.

[shadowfox87]

I disagree. Vegetto and Gogeta are different because of the different methods. Potara is magic, it isn't supposed to be predictable. Look at Old Kai and the Witch, while we don't know how strong he was before, at very least he had to be above an attendant like Kibito. So fusing in this case made him much weaker. While Goku+Vegeta had amazing results.

Fusion, yes I think there's a formula. Because it has rules: same size, same power and the fact that Goku made a prediction of it's result.

In the example you just stated, that is due to the ingredients of the fusion. If Goku fused with Satan, his power would be weaker or it would it be no different. However, the method of Fusion - Dance vs Potara only differs in the time. That is, with Fusion Dance, the Fusion wears off in 30 mins and the Potarra is permanent. As long as the ingredients are the SAME, the power level will also be the SAME because the total energy is derived from the materials of the Fusion are the same in both methods. In addition, for the Fusion Dance, the characters must match their power levels or it results in a suboptimal fusion. However, if you assume that it is optimal, then Fusion Dance=Potara except the time.

So Vegito=Gogeta, but Vegito would win in a fight because he would not defuse after 30 mins. This is what I stated already in the first post.

[LightBing]

Then why did Old Kai got significantly weaker? If he's one of the ingredients, why was his power lost? With Mr.Satan, there would be no reason for Goku to think he would get weaker if it was like that. But if it's an addition like you said. he can't get weaker only stronger even if it's just by 5.

[shadowfox87]

Then why did Old Kai got significantly weaker? If he's one of the ingredients, why was his power lost? With Mr.Satan, there would be no reason for Goku to think he would get weaker if it was like that. But if it's an addition like you said. he can't get weaker only stronger even if it's just by 5.

There is no official confirmation from the manga or anime that states Old Kaioshin got weaker after fusing with the Witch. It is implied that he got no power boost or it was so insignificant that it didn't matter. Old Kaioshin gained magic and that was it. I'm reading Chapter 501 of the manga and there's no mention of it. If there is, then please show me.

[LightBing]

Then why did Old Kai got significantly weaker? If he's one of the ingredients, why was his power lost? With Mr.Satan, there would be no reason for Goku to think he would get weaker if it was like that. But if it's an addition like you said. he can't get weaker only stronger even if it's just by 5.

There is no official confirmation from the manga or anime that states Old Kaioshin got weaker after fusing with the Witch. It is implied that he got no power boost or it was so insignificant that it didn't matter. Old Kaioshin gained magic and that was it. I'm reading Chapter 501 of the manga and there's no mention of it. If there is, then please show me.

There isn't one, like I said before it's an assumption based on the fact that the weakest Kaioshin was much stronger than Freeza, it's logical to me that such beings are at the very least stronger than most other creatures.

Ok, let me give you a more concrete example, Kibitoshin. We know Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo and weaker than SSJ Saiyans, while Kibito is about on the same level as Base Gohan. Yet after fusing Kibitoshin was ready to challenge Boo, sure he was quickly told he wouldn't stand a chance, but his confidence tells us he got a significant boost, much more than a simple addition.

[shadowfox87]

There isn't one, like I said before it's an assumption based on the fact that the weakest Kaioshin was much stronger than Freeza, it's logical to me that such beings are at the very least stronger than most other creatures.

Ok, let me give you a more concrete example, Kibitoshin. We know Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo and weaker than SSJ Saiyans, while Kibito is about on the same level as Base Gohan. Yet after fusing Kibitoshin was ready to challenge Boo, sure he was quickly told he wouldn't stand a chance, but his confidence tells us he got a significant boost, much more than a simple addition.

Obviously not because at that time, Mystic Gohan was losing against Super Buu that absorbed Gotenks+Piccolo. East Kaioshin has the power level of an average SSJ, greater than Piccolo but weaker than SSJ Gohan (who was already weaker than SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta). Kibito was approximately the same as East Kaioshin but a bit weaker. East Kaioshin is much weaker than Darbura who is weaker than Fat Buu who is weaker than Kid Buu who is weaker than Super Buu.

There is no way that the fusion of East Kaioshin+Kibito would stand a ghost of a chance when Mystic Gohan who is even stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku was losing the fight. This is why the Old Kaioshin said don't even bother. Kibitoshin didn't even stand a chance against Kid Buu.

[LightBing]

There isn't one, like I said before it's an assumption based on the fact that the weakest Kaioshin was much stronger than Freeza, it's logical to me that such beings are at the very least stronger than most other creatures.

Ok, let me give you a more concrete example, Kibitoshin. We know Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo and weaker than SSJ Saiyans, while Kibito is about on the same level as Base Gohan. Yet after fusing Kibitoshin was ready to challenge Boo, sure he was quickly told he wouldn't stand a chance, but his confidence tells us he got a significant boost, much more than a simple addition.

Obviously not because at that time, Mystic Gohan was losing against Super Buu that absorbed Gotenks+Piccolo. East Kaioshin has the power level of an average SSJ, greater than Piccolo but weaker than SSJ Gohan (who was already weaker than SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta). Kibito was approximately the same as East Kaioshin but a bit weaker. East Kaioshin is much weaker than Darbura who is weaker than Fat Buu who is weaker than Kid Buu who is weaker than Super Buu.

There is no way that the fusion of East Kaioshin+Kibito would stand a ghost of a chance when Mystic Gohan who is even stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku was losing the fight. This is why the Old Kaioshin said don't even bother. Kibitoshin didn't even stand a chance against Kid Buu.

No way is Kibito even close to Kaioshin, he couldn't even lift the Z-Sword something both Base Gohan and Goku could do.

Here's the quote:
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.2-4
Context: right after Kaioshin and Kibito merge
Kaioshin: “Oooh! Am-amazing! This is amazing power! Hahaah! [ ] Goku! I can fight too like this! I’ll go with you!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Don’t get carried away! No matter how strong you’ve become, you were never anything special. I doubt you could fight Boo head-on; you’d just end up getting absorbed. So stay here.”

Sure he wouldn't be able to handle Boo, but clearly he got much stronger. Much more than the result of the addition of both.

[shadowfox87]

No way is Kibito even close to Kaioshin, he couldn't even lift the Z-Sword something both Base Gohan and Goku could do.

Here's the quote:
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.2-4
Context: right after Kaioshin and Kibito merge
Kaioshin: “Oooh! Am-amazing! This is amazing power! Hahaah! [ ] Goku! I can fight too like this! I’ll go with you!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Don’t get carried away! No matter how strong you’ve become, you were never anything special. I doubt you could fight Boo head-on; you’d just end up getting absorbed. So stay here.”

Sure he wouldn't be able to handle Boo, but clearly he got much stronger. Much more than the result of the addition of both.

Where are you getting that from? It is obvious that they are stronger because they fused, but there is no information to imply that it is more than the result of an addition. That is an assumption. Another assumption being that you think Kibito is not close to Kaioshin. What does lifting the Z-sword have anything to do with comparing Kibito with East Kaioshin? Neither could lift the Z-sword, so both are weak. Kibito follows the orders of Kaioshin so we can assume that he is a bit weaker than him.

[DBZAOTA482]

Metomoran Fusion:

A = B

A + B = C x 10

Potara Fusion: (A x B) x (9 x Rival Boost) + 1)

[shadowfox87]

Metomoran Fusion:

A = B

A + B = C x 10

Potara Fusion: (A x B) x (9 x Rival Boost) + 1)

That is all made-up. None of that is proven. The formula for Potara and Fusion Dance cannot be different because the ingredients are exactly the same, the energies are exactly the same. There is no "rival boost" factor lol. Only in Fusion Dance you have to match power levels in order to fuse optimally. If you don't match energies in Fusion Dance, it can result in having a weaker power such as Fat Gogeta. For Potara, it doesn't matter and it is much more efficient. By logic, we can only deduce by what is shown. What is shown is that Potara is permanent and Fusion Dance is 30 mins. In terms of the differences in power, they are exactly the same if Fusion Dance was performed correctly.

[LightBing]

No way is Kibito even close to Kaioshin, he couldn't even lift the Z-Sword something both Base Gohan and Goku could do.

Here's the quote:
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.2-4
Context: right after Kaioshin and Kibito merge
Kaioshin: “Oooh! Am-amazing! This is amazing power! Hahaah! [ ] Goku! I can fight too like this! I’ll go with you!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Don’t get carried away! No matter how strong you’ve become, you were never anything special. I doubt you could fight Boo head-on; you’d just end up getting absorbed. So stay here.”

Sure he wouldn't be able to handle Boo, but clearly he got much stronger. Much more than the result of the addition of both.

Where are you getting that from? It is obvious that they are stronger because they fused, but there is no information to imply that it is more than the result of an addition. That is an assumption. Another assumption being that you think Kibito is not close to Kaioshin. What does lifting the Z-sword have anything to do with comparing Kibito with East Kaioshin? Neither could lift the Z-sword, so both are weak. Kibito follows the orders of Kaioshin so we can assume that he is a bit weaker than him.

From the manga. I'm talking about the sword outside the rock. When the sword was out, Kibito talked as if the sword wasn't that heavy, he was proven wrong because he couldn't even lift it up, something Base Gohan and Base Goku were able to do, Kaioshin never tried. From this scene we know he's weaker than Goku and Gohan in base, since Kaioshin was confirmed as stronger than Piccolo he's obviously much stronger than the base Saiyans and Kibito.

So the result of their fusion if it was addition, would never be anything special. Likely below Dabra. While the comment made, implies he's much greater than that.

[shadowfox87]

From the manga. I'm talking about the sword outside the rock. When the sword was out, Kibito talked as if the sword wasn't that heavy, he was proven wrong because he couldn't even lift it up, something Base Gohan and Base Goku were able to do, Kaioshin never tried. From this scene we know he's weaker than Goku and Gohan in base, since Kaioshin was confirmed as stronger than Piccolo he's obviously much stronger than the base Saiyans and Kibito.

So the result of their fusion if it was addition, would never be anything special. Likely below Dabra. While the comment made, implies he's much greater than that.

No, you cannot assume that Kaioshin is stronger than base Saiyans because we don't know the power gap between Piccolo and base Goku/Gohan. Kaioshin never tried to pick up the sword, so we don't know if he could pick it up either. Kibito is weaker than East Kaioshin, yes, but not by that much. Not only that, there was never any indication of Kibitoshin's power so you cannot assume it was weaker than Darbura either.

[LightBing]

Yes we do. Piccolo is roughly in the realm of a Cell Jr, while the Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Unless you disregard Beerus line in BoG, if you do I have no interest in continuing this discussion.

[LowRyder2005]

Ehr... Arguing that the Potara Fusion would be "A + B" would lead to the conclusion that Goku and Vegeta (half of Vegito's power) could have most likely defeated regular Super Buu (probably less than half the power of Gohan-Buu) by going Super Saiyan. That's kinda impossible.

Metamoran Fusion is hinted to be more than the sum of its parts the moment it's introduced. If you add GT databooks into the equation definitely more than ten times. I mean, Omega Shenron is reported there to be about ten times stronger than regular Syn and Gogeta is leagues above him. But even in DBZ databooks, Gotenks is "many tens of times" stronger than Goten and Trunks (according to Son Goku Densetsu).
Potara is vastly stronger than that through regular power-scaling, although we can't exactly pinpoint how much.

And those V-Jumps were literally numbers made on the spot without too much thought, they hold the same weight of movie posters giving Commander Red 100 BPs. They're not intended to be particularly reliable or perfectly reflect the original story.

[shadowfox87]

Ehr... Arguing that the Potara Fusion would be "A + B" would lead to the conclusion that Goku and Vegeta (half of Vegito's power) could have most likely defeated regular Super Buu (probably less than half the power of Gohan-Buu) by going Super Saiyan. That's kinda impossible.

Metamoran Fusion is hinted to be more than the sum of its parts the moment it's introduced. If you add GT databooks into the equation definitely more than ten times. I mean, Omega Shenron is reported there to be about ten times stronger than regular Syn and Gogeta is leagues above him. But even in DBZ databooks, Gotenks is "many tens of times" stronger than Goten and Trunks (according to Son Goku Densetsu).
Potara is vastly stronger than that through regular power-scaling, although we can't exactly pinpoint how much.

And those V-Jumps were literally numbers made on the spot without too much thought, they hold the same weight of movie posters giving Commander Red 100 BPs. They're not intended to be particularly reliable or perfectly reflect the original story.

Movies are not canon. I stated that in the first post. However, the V-Jump is the only time where Gogeta was given a power level which was 2.5 billion. I already calculated that SSJ Goku would be 1.3 billion while SSJ Vegeta is 1.2 billion. Hence, they would have absolutely NO chance of beating Ultimate Buu (Mystic Gohan+Goten+Trunks+Piccolo). If it was multiplication, then there is no way to get 2.5 billion for Gogeta's power level. I'm using the guidebooks on Kanzenshuu for DB/DBZ/DBS. I have both the GT Perfect Files and neither state anything about a Fusion formula for the Metamorans.

The multiplier for SSJ4 is also unknown in GT. It is not a transformation from SSJ3, but a transformation from Golden Oozaru and later from base. If SSJ3 is 400x, SSJ4 has to be at least 1000x or more. This makes sense since Oozaru is 10x but when Bulma concentrated the Blutz rays on Vegeta, she said it was 1000x concentrated. This means that SSJ4=2.5x SSJ3. Gogeta fought Omega Shenron in SSJ4. Omega Shenron even survived a direct hit of Big Bang Kamehameha to his face. Hence, I'm not surprised that it took SSJ4 level to beat him. If we use 2.5 billion as the previously reported power level of SSJ Gogeta during Movie 12, then SSJ4 would put him at 50 billion.

[Lord Beerus]

Metomoran Fusion:

A = B

A + B = C x 10

Potara Fusion: (A x B) x (9 x Rival Boost) + 1)

That is all made-up. None of that is proven. The formula for Potara and Fusion Dance cannot be different because the ingredients are exactly the same, the energies are exactly the same. There is no "rival boost" factor lol. Only in Fusion Dance you have to match power levels in order to fuse optimally. If you don't match energies in Fusion Dance, it can result in having a weaker power such as Fat Gogeta. For Potara, it doesn't matter and it is much more efficient. By logic, we can only deduce by what is shown. What is shown is that Potara is permanent and Fusion Dance is 30 mins. In terms of the differences in power, they are exactly the same if Fusion Dance was performed correctly.

Actually, it is stated that Potara produce greater results and is just outright superior in comparison to the Fusion Dance in both the manga and the guidebooks.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: "Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! Put the other one on Gohan's ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion."
Goku: "Huh! Re-really!?"
Elder Kaioshin: "Of course. And what's more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago."

Daizenshuu #7 Potara entry:

To use them, the two people who will merge simply have to each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu's body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people's bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.