Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

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Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:15 pm

Vegeta was said to be as strong as or stronger than SSG Goku in episode 18

initial SSG goku could not believe the power so he is obviously stronger than super Vegito or else he could believe it because he has had it before, he then powered up many times over throughout the fight with Beerus

when Vegeta entered "that place" he felt god ki for the first time meaning he obviously did not have it

going by this we have SSG >= Super Sayain 2 Vegito by statements
SSJ Vegeta (no God ki) > Super Sayain 2 Vegito by the fact he is stronger or on par with Goku

at very least we have Base Vegeta a great deal above base Vegito without god ki,

so we can stop the theory's of they used god ki etc because without it they are already stronger than anyone who ever appeared in the buu saga

i have used the common multipliers here
Last edited by ryan s on Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:40 pm

Rage Vegeta in BoG was only a little bit stronger than SSJ3 Gokuu. He only surpassed Vegito with god ki.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:54 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Rage Vegeta in BoG was only a little bit stronger than SSJ3 Gokuu. He only surpassed Vegito with god ki.
I just proved the opposite, rage vegeta surpassed ssgss in Super

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:06 pm

I read this and I couldn't understand any of it. Either I'm having a rough night comprehending stuff or you're spouting gibberish.
ryan s wrote:Vegeta was said to be as strong as or stronger than SSG Goku in episode 18
Where is this said exactly?
ryan s wrote:initial SSG goku could not believe the power so he is obviously stronger than super Vegito or else he could believe it because he has had it before, he then powered up many times over
Nobody has argued otherwise that SSJG Goku was superior to Super Vegetto. Goku already stated that even with Super Vegetto they wouldn't be able to rival Beerus anyway. So SSJG Goku has to be superior to Super Vegetto.
ryan s wrote:when Vegeta entered "that place" he felt god ki for the first time meaning he obviously did not have it
This is incorrect, the first time Vegeta senses God Ki is actually at the start of episode 18 when Whis returns back from Earth with Goku. The Oracle Fish says "Ah, so you're finally able to sense the Ki of a god, huh?" Furthermore it was never said that they require God Ki in order to sense God Ki. Whis specifically states that both Vegeta and Goku have reached a level of strength that they can now sense God Ki. That doesn't mean they have to have God Ki itself. It's mere supposition to assume that you require God Ki to sense God Ki.
ryan s wrote:going by this we have SSG >= Super Sayain 2 Vegito by statements
How exactly does what you just said mean this? Please explain.
ryan s wrote:SSJ Vegeta (no God ki) >= Super Sayain 2 Vegito
It's possible but as with the above statement how are you drawing this conclusion?
ryan s wrote:Base Vegeta = Super Vegito
What is the basis for this also? Are you saying that SSJ is not a big boost like it was before? Because here you're effectively saying that SSJ Vegeta is a 2x boost over Base Vegeta. If that is the case then why doesn't Goku just use regular Kaioken for fights as x10 and x20 vastly outstrip a SSJ transformation which is only double your base's power.
ryan s wrote:at very least we have Base Vegeta a great deal above base Vegito without god ki,
Assuming that Goku and Vegeta can channel God Ki into their base forms, something I don't subscribe to, you can't possibly prove this unless the characters state that they aren't using God Ki and then perform feats that would clearly put them about base Vegetto. Your logic is flawed.
ryan s wrote:i have used the common multipliers here
What does this mean? I saw no numbers indicating multipliers. What do you mean by common? 50x for SSJ? 2x SSJ for SSJ2? Because this basis is thrown out of the water when you said Base Vegeta = Super Vegetto when Vegeta's SSJ form, which should be 50x stronger, so 25x stronger than SSJ2 Vegetto, is more than equal SSJ2 Vegetto, implying SSJ is only a 2x boost.
Last edited by Hitiro on Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:25 pm

1) episode 18: Goku " you might be even stronger than me"
2) i agree but some people still disagree with that
3) i agree he does not have god ki that was my point: http://s22.postimg.org/65bt13fwx/image.png
4) Goku as a SSJ was as strong as as SSG which is stronger than Super Vegito and initial SSG was stronger than Super Vegito by quite a lot and it got stronger and stronger it is at least stronger than buu arc Super Saiyain 2 vegito just by adding it up
5) My bad i made a error, Vegeta as a ssj would be well beyond Super Saiyan 3 Vegito
6) i don`t subscribe to that and i proved it
7)yep i screwed up got all confused about the multipliers

i thought because SSJ Vegeta> SSJ2 Vegito
-50x Would equal SSJ Vegito because it is a extra 50x boost but it is a contradiction
Last edited by ryan s on Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:45 pm

ryan s wrote:1) episode 18: Goku " you might be even stronger than me"
Him being stronger than Goku doesn't necessitate him being stronger than SSJG Goku. Goku had lost an undefined portion of the power that was the SSJG form. He absorbed some of it and that's why when he reverted back and started using SSJ he hadn't fallen to that significant of a degree. The fact that Goku was fighting Beerus in SSJ and fighting roughly the same as he was while he had the form would indicate that Goku didn't retain that much of the God Ki. If we're using the guidebooks multipliers then his base form only retained 1/50th of the SSJG forms power which is only enough for him to continue to fight Beerus while being a SSJ. And this probably tailed off even further as he still can't put up a fight against Beerus. Essentially it would be something like this:

SSJG Goku = Beerus 70%

SSJ Goku(After SSJG) = Beerus 70%

SSJ Goku(An undefined period of time after SSJG was lost) = Beerus 10%

SSJB Goku = Beerus 70%
ryan s wrote:2) i agree but some people still disagree with that
Who are these people? I've certainly not seen anyone here think otherwise.
ryan s wrote:3) i agree he does not have god ki that was my point
Him having or not having God Ki is irrelevant really. He can't be as strong as you're claiming otherwise regular SSJ would make him a lot stronger than Beerus. Even Whis. Using Akira Toriyama's numbers if Vegeta is a 6(What SSJG Goku apparently was to Beerus) and Beerus is a 10 then SSJ Vegeta, even assuming a multiplier of 2x, would be a 12, and SSJ2 would put him at 24 which would surpass Whis by a bunch considering Toriyama said Whis is a 15.
ryan s wrote:4) Goku as a SSJ was as strong as as SSG which is stronger than Super Vegito and initial SSG was stronger than Super Vegito by quite a lot and it got stronger and stronger it is at least stronger than buu arc Super Saiyain 2 vegito just by adding it up
Initial SSJ Goku was as strong as SSJG. The episodes have shown us that Goku is not that strong anymore as a SSJ. Otherwise it would be a simple matter of Goku using SSJ2 to beat Beerus as Beerus needed 70% to beat SSJG Goku. With SSJ2, Beerus would need 140% to beat him which means SSJ2 Goku > Beerus. So clearly Goku is not that strong any more. He is still stronger than the rest of the characters in his base form. Even a fused SSJ3 Gotenks considering Vegeta's fight with him. But nowhere near SSJG level in his SSJ form.
ryan s wrote:5) My bad i made a error, Vegeta as a ssj would be well beyond Super Saiyan 3 Vegito
He may be but there is no way to prove that without knowing how the original characters ranked in percentage against Beerus and without knowing how strong SSJ Vegeta actually is. He can't be SSJG level as I said. Because otherwise both Goku and Vegeta would be strong enough in SSJ2 to take him fairly easily.
ryan s wrote:6) i don`t subscribe to that and i proved it
You haven't really proved it because you would need concise evidence backing up your claim. But, assuming they do turn their God Ki on and off for arguments stake, unless we are told they have it on or off and they defeat an opponent equivalent to Super Vegetto's level we can't possibly say that they are that strong without using God Ki.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:53 pm

1) Goku himself said he did not feel he had gotten any weaker and Beerus indicated he still had the power all of it and Goku was at 100%
2) people exist outside of kanzenshuu
3)those numbers were given for battle of gods the movie and no longer apply, x10 kaioken Goku is still below Beerus as monoka is still believed to be stronger because he can give beerus a hard time
4) he is SSG level there are multiplie quotes that say he kept all the power which would mean SSJ vegeta is well beyond vegito
5)i just gave evidence proving my claim

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”


Minute: 5
Context: Goku sizes up Vegeta
Goku: "Amazing, Vegeta! I can't believe how much stronger you've grown! You might already be even stronger than I am! Your ki has a completely different quality to it than back when you were on Earth."

the proof is there just because you deny it does not make it go away

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:30 pm

By the way, I don't know where you got your translation for when Vegeta says "Is this what they call God Ki?" because Ken Xyro's translation says something entirely different.Image
ryan s wrote:1) Goku himself said he did not feel he had gotten any weaker and Beerus indicated he still had the power all of it
In the movie, it was stated that Goku absorbed the power and that's why it didn't fall drastically. Going from every episode following the one where Goku fights Beerus this still seems to be the general idea otherwise Goku can and would surpass Beerus any time he wants by transforming into SSJ2 or SSJ3.
ryan s wrote:2) people exist outside of kanzenshuu
Then the statement is irrelevant here because they aren't here to see it?
ryan s wrote:3)those numbers were given for battle of gods the movie and no longer apply, x10 kaioken Goku is still below Beerus as monoka is still believed to be stronger because he can give beerus a hard time
There is nothing wrong with these numbers though. Beerus still uses 70% in the anime. That can easily translate to SSJG Goku's 100% being about 60% of Beerus power. Which means Goku is a 6 and Beerus is a 10 on that scale. Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that Beerus needed to use 70% to subdue SSJG Goku and initial SSJ Goku(After SSJG power absorbed) which means that any form after SSJ would put Goku above Beerus. Yet we see in the later episodes Goku says they still can't beat Beerus.
ryan s wrote:4) he is SSG level there are multiplie quotes that say he kept all the power which would mean SSJ vegeta is well beyond vegito
But there aren't? The only quote that suggests SSJG level is the one with SSJB where Goku says he is channelling the SSG power through SSJ. If it is as you say then why are Goku and Vegeta still talking about surpassing Beerus and Monaka if they have already surpassed Beerus? That makes no sense.
ryan s wrote:5)i just gave evidence proving my claim

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”
The issue here is Beerus is just speculating. He says "it seems" so he could be wrong. Given that the movie says that Goku had lost some of the power but his power hadn't fallen drastically I will still say he isn't SSJG level as a SSJ. In fact, if it is the case that Goku is stronger than Beerus with any form above SSJ then that would be the same for Freeza too. Yet Golden Freeza is still scared of Beerus. And we know that SSJB > SSJ. So that makes no sense either. Goku has to have weakened to a reasonable level now or Beerus would not still be a goal post for him and Vegeta.

ryan s wrote:Minute: 5
Context: Goku sizes up Vegeta
Goku: "Amazing, Vegeta! I can't believe how much stronger you've grown! You might already be even stronger than I am! Your ki has a completely different quality to it than back when you were on Earth."

the proof is there just because you deny it does not make it go away
This isn't proof though. Nothing is to say Goku hasn't lost a portion of that God Ki now. In fact, Goku, after training with Vegeta at the Beerus' place and growing a bit stronger, still said that Beerus was superior to them.Image
That would make no sense if they could just flip their SSJ2 form on and beat him.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:44 pm

i am not going to argue with you for the sake of arguing if you keep replying just for the sake of arguing i won`t reply again, you say you don`t subscribe to God ki in thier base forms yet you say the fact that Goku did not turn ssj2 or 3 proves she is above Beerus yet Goku in the last episode turned ssj3 Beerus did not care

1) dragon team subs the most accurate subs out there
2)it does not matter what the movie said the fact is he kept the power why he did not turn ssj2 or 3? it is just a plot hole ( a point just to argue)
3)Beerus never said he used 70% ever and the fact that he is still above kaioken x10 goku completely removes the Battle of Gods movie numbers which were given two years+ before Super and are clearly no longer relevant
4)Goku said he felt he had not got any weaker after going out at 100% i think Goku would know better than you if his power had fallen, your later post is again clinging to the BOG numbers
5) Goku never got God ki, it was stated his ki could be sensed but he had the full power, also where did i say ssj2 Vegeta could beat Beerus ? Beerus is on a whole different level a complete retcon from the movies

the evidence is all there and you are trying to refute it, when it is so obvious to claim Goku got weaker when he himself said he felt just as strong is absurd, not only that Goku said he was going 100% prior

Beerus even says in the next episode "so this is the power of the super sayain god" and smiles indicating Goku was stronger than he even was previously

anyway i am tired, its like 2am

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:42 am

ryan s wrote:i am not going to argue with you for the sake of arguing if you keep replying just for the sake of arguing i won`t reply again, you say you don`t subscribe to God ki in thier base forms yet you say the fact that Goku did not turn ssj2 or 3 proves she is above Beerus yet Goku in the last episode turned ssj3 Beerus did not care
This makes no sense. What are you on about? I'm not saying that the fact Goku didn't turn SSJ2 or 3 proves he's above Beerus. I'm stating that IF Goku were to transform that high given you claim that SSJ rivals SSJG then he should easily be able to beat Beerus. The fact that Beerus did not care in the most recent episode proves that Goku's SSJ is nowhere near SSJG level. Otherwise his SSJ2 and SSJ3 would be a worry for Beerus. Effectively, this is your claim:

SSJ Goku = SSJG Goku <= Beerus 70%
SSJ2 Goku = 2x SSJG Goku <= Beerus 140%
SSJ3 Goku = 8x SSJG Goku <= Beerus 560%

If you subscribe to the theory that SSJ Goku is as strong as SSJG Goku then SSJ3 Goku would be 5.6x stronger than Beerus. That is why I'm saying that Goku's power dropped after his battle with Beerus. To a level where SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 are not threats and only SSJB + SSJB Kaioken x10 can put him near Beerus. As we see in the current episode Beerus is not worried about SSJ3. He would be if SSJ Goku is as strong a SSJG Goku.
ryan s wrote:1) dragon team subs the most accurate subs out there
Even they get things wrong, if you look at Herms Fact checker he has the line say "Is this God Ki?" rather than "Is this what they call God Ki?" The former would suggest that Vegeta is making an observation and already knows what God Ki is. The latter suggests that it is his first time experiencing God Ki. But we already know that both Goku and Vegeta can sense God Ki prior to this moment. We get told so by other characters.
ryan s wrote:2)it does not matter what the movie said the fact is he kept the power why he did not turn ssj2 or 3? it is just a plot hole ( a point just to argue)
Or he just didn't think to do it? Goku has those kinds of moments. Perhaps he wanted a decent fight with Beerus even. Because SSJ2 would have made him too strong and he wouldn't be able to have any fun. As Cell said before "It is only fun if their respective powers are the same."
ryan s wrote:3)Beerus never said he used 70% ever and the fact that he is still above kaioken x10 goku completely removes the Battle of Gods movie numbers which were given two years+ before Super and are clearly no longer relevant
It was Whis who said he used 70% not Beerus. But if it's the case that the line never gets said in the anime then that is fine I guess. The main issue is that Rage Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power. If SSJG rivals or surpasses this then SSJ3 would rival Beerus. Even if we say that SSJG is only 5% Beerus that would put SSJ3 Goku at 40% Beerus. SSJB is stronger still, even assuming it is only a 2x boost over SSJ3 that puts SSJB at 80% Beerus and then you bring in the KK x10 and we have SSJB Goku KK x10 being 800% Beerus. Basically 8x stronger than Beerus.

The only way this will work is if SSJG's strength was equivalent to 1% making SSJB Goku KK x10 around 80% of Beerus' power. That would mean that Rage Vegeta was 10x stronger than SSJG which I find hard to believe. Especially seeing as Beerus was happy to fight SSJG Goku. Why would he be happy in fighting a weaker opponent?
ryan s wrote:4)Goku said he felt he had not got any weaker after going out at 100% i think Goku would know better than you if his power had fallen, your later post is again clinging to the BOG numbers
You're putting words into my mouth now. I said that going from the BoG events his power may have fallen after the battle.
ryan s wrote:5) Goku never got God ki, it was stated his ki could be sensed but he had the full power, also where did i say ssj2 Vegeta could beat Beerus ? Beerus is on a whole different level a complete retcon from the movies
I never said he got God Ki in base form. I said he absorbed the power of SSJG and nobody stated the could send his Ki. I'm not sure where you got this. I didn't say you said SSJ2 Vegeta could beat Beerus. I said that if Vegeta was as strong as SSJG in his SSJ form which Beerus needed 70% to fight against then SSJ2 Vegeta would be superior to Beerus by 1.4 times. But as you have provided the anime doesn't say how much power Beerus needed to fight SSJG Goku. It would have to be something above 10% though otherwise Beerus would be disappointed.
ryan s wrote:the evidence is all there and you are trying to refute it, when it is so obvious to claim Goku got weaker when he himself said he felt just as strong is absurd, not only that Goku said he was going 100% prior
Again, putting words into my mouth I said he may have gotten weaker after the battle with Beerus. Not during. In the BoG movie Goku's power had fallen slightly when he absorbed the SSJG power and made it his own. Nothing is to say this didn't happen to Goku after battle in the anime. What Goku says during the fight does not have any effect on what happens after the battle.
ryan s wrote:Beerus even says in the next episode "so this is the power of the super sayain god" and smiles indicating Goku was stronger than he even was previously

anyway i am tired, its like 2am
Again, I'm not saying that in the anime his power fell straight away. I'm saying that after the battle he had lost a portion of the power.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:28 am

Would you stop quoting every single line please and make it smaller and number the points

1) Goku never lost any power so SSJ=SSG confrimed in episode 13 and episode 14 when beerus says "so this is the power of super sayain God" indicating he was stonger than ever and goku saying he did not feel he got any weaker
2) kaioken x10 Goku is weaker than beerus not stronger which messes up your power scaling,he is probabaly not even on the level of champa because hit waas terrified to fight him
3) is this God ki? if he had God ki he would not have to ask that question anyway, its as stupid as asking is this ki? then to say the pressure is immense only shows that he does not have it again
4) have you watched super? because you are missing basic things like 70%
5) the narrator a-also said SSJ goku surpassed the level of gods which fits well with Beerus comment in episode 14

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:34 am

ryan s wrote:Would you stop quoting every single line please and make it smaller and number the points

1) Goku never lost any power so SSJ=SSG confrimed in episode 13 and episode 14 when beerus says "so this is the power of super sayain God" indicating he was stonger than ever and goku saying he did not feel he got any weaker
2) kaioken x10 Goku is weaker than beerus not stronger which messes up your power scaling,he is probabaly not even on the level of champa because hit waas terrified to fight him
3) is this God ki? if he had God ki he would not have to ask that question anyway, its as stupid as asking is this ki? then to say the pressure is immense only shows that he does not have it again
4) have you watched super? because you are missing basic things like 70%
5) the narrator a-also said SSJ goku surpassed the level of gods which fits well with Beerus comment in episode 14
1) Again, Goku being SSJG level during the fight with Beerus does not make him still that strength later in the series. I've been saying this multiple times. He maintained the strength for SSJG during the battle and in the period of 6 months after the fight he must have lost most of that energy.

2) I'm not saying KK x10 Goku is stronger. I'm saying if you have SSJ Goku = SSJG then he WILL be stronger. Unless you put SSJG at 1% of Beerus power and assume that SSJB is only 2x SSJ3. Because if SSJ Goku is 10% Beerus' power or more and maintains that even after the fight with Beerus then SSJB + KKx10 will be stronger than Beerus. effectively it would look something like this:

Assuming SSJG is 10% or more of Beerus' power and his Ki remains the same after 6 months
Base Goku < 0.2% Beerus
SSJG Goku <= 10% Beerus
Rage Vegeta <= 10% Beerus
SSJ Goku(After SSJG) <= 10% Beerus
SSJ2 Goku <= 20% Beerus
SSJ3 Goku <= 40% Beerus
SSJB Goku <= 80% Beerus
SSJB KKx10 Goku <= 800% Beerus

Assuming SSJG is 10% or more of Beerus' power plus power loss after a few months or sometime after the battle
Base Goku < 0.2% Beerus
SSJG Goku <= 10% Beerus
Rage Vegeta <= 10% Beerus
SSJ Goku(After SSJG, during the fight) <= 10% Beerus
Base Goku(After 6 months) < 0.2% Beerus
SSJ Goku(After 6 months) <= 1% Beerus
SSJ2 Goku(After 6 months) <= 2% Beerus
SSJ3 Goku(After 6 months) <= 4% Beerus
SSJB Goku(After 6 months) <= 8% Beerus
SSJB KKx10 Goku(After 6 months) <= 80% Beerus

The only way to fix your "His SSJ stays SSJG level" opinion and not make him 8x stronger than Beerus is either:
A) Make SSJG as weak as 1% Beerus. And have Rage Vegeta up to 10x stronger than SSJG Goku.
B) Get Goku's God Ki to disappear over the short time he before he starts training with Whis and Beerus.

Your decision.

3) That's not how it works, I can walk up to a sports car and say "Is this a Dodge Viper?" this is an inquisitive question that can mean you have some knowledge of what a Dodge Viper is. I'm not saying Vegeta has God Ki here, we're arguing whether he could sense God Ki. Which he already could. Because the Oracle Fish confirmed it earlier in episode 18 right at the start of the episode.

4) I had already said that them not saying 70% is fine. What is the issue is that Rage Vegeta made Beerus use 10% of his power. Going by this basis and the fact that SSJG is portrayed as stronger than Rage Vegeta then going by the numbers I provided above SSJB KKx10 would be 8x stronger than Beerus. But that isn't the case, right? So either Goku lost power after the fight with Beerus or SSJG is weaker than Rage Vegeta. So which is it?

5) And then in episode 22 Goku says that neither him nor Vegeta can match Beerus. For that to be true their SSJ forms can't be SSJG level. Otherwise by simple numbers and scaling we have SSJB KKx10 Goku at 8x stronger than Beerus. Because the minimum strength for SSJG in the series is "making Beerus use 10% of his power." As you can see from the number I provided above SSJ can't be 10% Beerus otherwise Goku is too strong.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:37 am

thank you for breaking it down, it makes it much easier for me to reply and not go through chunks of text which i find hard personally

1) no there is absolutely no reason Goku would power down, it was stated many times over he kept the power
2) Not really we don`t know where Beerus is in terms of power, they have been very vague and it is fully possible he is that strong and Goku is that strong
3)he can sense god ki but he clearly does not have it (unless he is a SSGSS) because he would already know the pressure is immense, it is a observation of god ki and if he had god ki he would not make that observation because he would know it is immense
4)Rage vegeta can`t be used as evidence for where Beerus is, as we have no idea how strong he had got and he had surpassed SSGSS at that moment,
5) again you speculating like you know where Beerus`s strength is, Beerus is well beyond SSG and SSGSS, that is all we know,

you are not providing evidence against my argument but using head canon to claim Beerus must be here and SSJ Goku can`t be this stronger because of my head canon and we don`t know where Beerus and rage Vegeta are in terms of power, it is impossible to tell and the plot makes them as strong as they need to be and there is nothing suggesting goku got any weaker, no evidence at all.

i want to argue with established facts, that is why i created this topic
1) Goku kept all the power
2) Vegeta was on par or stronger than this Goku
3) vegeta had no God ki (at that time)
4)Vegetas base would be around buu saga Super Vgeito
5) SSJ vegeta would be well beyond SSJ3 vegito (buu saga)
6) therefore SSG is well beyond Vegito


i don`t get while we are arguing about god ki, do you agree they only have it when they are in their god forms?

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:48 am

ryan s wrote:thank you for breaking it down, it makes it much easier for me to reply and not go through chunks of text which i find hard personally

1) no there is absolutely no reason Goku would power down, it was stated many times over he kept the power
2) Not really we don`t know where Beerus is in terms of power, they have been very vague and it is fully possible he is that strong and Goku is that strong
3)he can sense god ki but he clearly does not have it (unless he is a SSGSS) because he would already know the pressure is immense, it is a observation of god ki and if he had god ki he would not make that observation because he would know it is immense
4)Rage vegeta can`t be used as evidence for where Beerus is, as we have no idea how strong he had got and he had surpassed SSGSS at that moment,
5) again you speculating like you know where Beerus`s strength is, Beerus is well beyond SSG and SSGSS, that is all we know,

you are not providing evidence against my argument but using head canon to claim Beerus must be here and SSJ Goku can`t be this stronger because of my head canon and we don`t know where Beerus and rage Vegeta are in terms of power, it is impossible to tell and the plot makes them as strong as they need to be and there is nothing suggesting goku got any weaker, no evidence at all.

i want to argue with established facts, that is why i created this topic
1) Goku kept all the power
2) Vegeta was on par or stronger than this Goku
3) vegeta had no God ki (at that time)
4)Vegetas base would be around buu saga Super Vgeito
5) SSJ vegeta would be well beyond SSJ3 vegito (buu saga)
6) therefore SSG is well beyond Vegito


i don`t get while we are arguing about god ki, do you agree they only have it when they are in their god forms?
1) It is not stated that he kept the power at any point after the fight. We do get mentions that Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger but those statements just mean they have gotten stronger than their previous levels, whatever they were. If they Goku had kept his strength then why would anybody during the Fukkatsu no F arc be surprised that Goku can fight and beat Freeza's final form, albeit Freeza did train. They should clearly know that he should be able to do something in base form if he retained most of his power.

2) But we know that Beerus requires at least 10% to defeat Rage Vegeta. By simple extrapolation we can determine where SSJGod should sit if you want Goku to retain that sort of power as a SSJ. Just by low balling it if SSJGod requires Beerus to exert 10% of his full power to beat them just like he needed 10% to take out Rage Vegeta and Goku's SSJ form is equivalent to that level then Goku's SSJ3 would require Beerus to exert around 80% The only thing that isn't clear is how much stronger SSJB is compared to SSJ3 but I would imagine 2x stronger isn't that big of an ask for it. So that would mean that Beerus would have to exert much more than his 100% to beat SSJB Goku if we're saying SSJ maintained SSJGod levels.

And if we're going to say that SSJ Vegeta, in 6 months, went from being much less 1% to 10%(Assuming SSJG equals Rage Vegeta in strength) then why hasn't he surpassed Beerus yet? Because from simple extrapolation, if he were to gain 10% every 6 months, his SSJ form would be over 70% of Beerus' power by now if we take into account that Goku and Vegeta both trained in the RoSaT for 3 years. Coupled with the fact that they both trained in Whis' staff which we don't know how much time had passed in there.

3) That's incorrect, I've seen plenty of people say things like "Is that a Dodge Viper?" when they have one themselves. The statement is more of an inquisitive assertion. And in this case the line is for the audience to understand that where they are has God Ki. If he had said "Is this what they call God Ki?" then I would agree with you. But he doesn't do that. Furthermore he demonstrated that he did have God Ki prior to this event as when he was fighting Goku while trying to control the leakage of Ki from his body both him and Goku produced SSJB flames in a clash. Not to mention he can, and has, sensed Whis' God Ki prior to going in there. So he already has an understanding of God Ki even if you want to argue he doesn't have any.

4)Yes we can use Rage Vegeta as a reference. If Beerus says he needed to exert 10% then that means that Rage Vegeta is just under 10% it's not rocket science. If we say that a character needs 25% difference between him and another to be able to flat out beat them then Beerus would need 10% if Rage Vegeta was 8% and clearly from everything we've seen thus far Beerus hasn't been training so he would be no stronger now than he was then.

5) We also know Beerus required 10% of his power to beat Rage Vegeta. So please don't tell me can't use that. I'm not saying Beerus isn't well beyond SSJG and SSJB. What I'm saying is if Rage Vegeta, which Beerus needed to exert 10% of his power, is weaker than SSJG then SSJ can't be at SSJG level any more if we're using the SSJ multipliers from the guide book.

The only ways to balance this is: A) to have SSJG weaker than Rage Vegeta, which doesn't make sense. B) Have Goku's power drop during the 6 months to a more reasonable level. Or C) Change the SSJ multipliers.

I agree they only have God Ki in SSJB, because it was stated by, I think Kuririn, that he couldn't sense Goku's Ki any more after he went SSJB. I guess you could argue that he was using his God Ki in conjunction with his regular Ki while he was in base form but if that's the case why is it that his normal Ki vanishes when he transforms into SSJB if he can use both at the same time in his base form? So I would say they can't use it in their base forms.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:22 pm

1) They did not get weaker , it was stated he kept the full power and i won`t entertain theory's that have no value or evidence or logical reasoning behind them
2) again this has no value 1) we don`t know where Rage Vegeta or Beerus are so 10% of Beerus means nothing
3) no it is not incorrect, "the pressure is immense" someone who owns a ferrari 458 does not go into another ferrari 458 and go dam this thing is fast if he himself owns one and knows how fast it is
4) What is not rocket science is not knowing where rage vegeta is in power how do you not get that
5)it`s impossible for rage Vegeta to be weaker than SSG
B) still does not solve the issue as rage vegeta would still be higher than ssgss Goku who is stronger than SSG and is less than 10% Beerus

i am done here you have provided no reasonable evidence and it is all poor and all assumption and very circular.

i am fed up of reading through chunks of text that could be summarized in a few words and i am extremely tired right now

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:22 pm

you have also missed the point of the topic

you like me believe they don`t have god ki in their base forms or ssj forms etc

therefore in thier base forms they are stronger than someone like buuhan without god ki

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:04 pm

ryan s wrote:1) They did not get weaker , it was stated he kept the full power and i won`t entertain theory's that have no value or evidence or logical reasoning behind them
2) again this has no value 1) we don`t know where Rage Vegeta or Beerus are so 10% of Beerus means nothing
3) no it is not incorrect, "the pressure is immense" someone who owns a ferrari 458 does not go into another ferrari 458 and go dam this thing is fast if he himself owns one and knows how fast it is
4) What is not rocket science is not knowing where rage vegeta is in power how do you not get that
5)it`s impossible for rage Vegeta to be weaker than SSG
B) still does not solve the issue as rage vegeta would still be higher than ssgss Goku who is stronger than SSG and is less than 10% Beerus

i am done here you have provided no reasonable evidence and it is all poor and all assumption and very circular.

i am fed up of reading through chunks of text that could be summarized in a few words and i am extremely tired right now
1) Where? Show me a place that Goku kept the full power after the fight. Give me just one example. Because there isn't one.

2) If you think this has no value then either you're being pigheaded or just silly. 1) We don't need to know where Rage Vegeta is value wise is to know that SSJG is stronger than it. And we don't need to know where Beerus is value wise because as long as we have some percentage to go against we will know where Beerus lies with others. For instance, Beerus required 10% to beat Rage Vegeta. So if SSJB is 20x stronger than Rage Vegeta then SSJB is 2x stronger than Beerus because Beerus would need 10% x20 which equals 200%. So again, if you're using SSJ multipliers then if SSJGod is the same strength as Rage Vegeta, which it is not it is more powerful, and SSJ equals SSJGod now then 10% x8(For SSJ3) would mean Beerus has to exert 80% of his power to beat SSJ3 Goku. We don't need to know the exact numbers. All we need to know is that Beerus requires 10% to beat Rage Vegeta and that SSJGod is superior to Rage Vegeta. Just by low balling and assuming SSJGod is only equal to Rage Vegeta brings up issues by itself. Having SSJGod stronger than Rage Vegeta, which the story shows it is, would produce and even worse result.

3) You're speaking as if he has experienced the same quantity of God Ki, the car may be a the same Ferrari you have but if theirs is suped-up then you would not have the same experience with it. So that is irrelevant.

4) We DO know where his power is. He is roughly below 10% of Beerus' power. Using Beerus as a measuring pole we can see where the other forms lie. Do you not understand this? SSJG is superior to Rage Vegeta, so even if we assume that they are equal we have problems. So what happens if we increase SSJG's power? There will be even more problems. This is what you don't seem to understand. All we need to know is the fact that Beerus needs 10% to beat Rage Vegeta and from there we can easily low ball to see a low estimation of SSJG and the other forms.

5) Except SSJG is superior to Rage Vegeta, that was already confirmed. Because Beerus tells Goku he isn't the strongest person he has fought. And that he would bring the strongest person in the Tournament Arc. So no, SSJG is above Rage Vegeta who force Beerus to use 10% and if you're saying SSJ is equal to SSJG then SSJB, which is superior to SSJ3, would mean Beerus needs well over 80% to beat SSJB.

And I'm sorry, but it is you who hasn't provided evidence. I've provided plenty of stuff. Please show me where it states Goku kept his God Power after the fight. Because your whole basis is relying on the fact that he maintained this strength. Yet there is absolutely nowhere in the story after his fight with Beerus that says he kept that power or that his SSJ was at SSJG level any more.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:10 pm

episode title "Surpass Super saiyan god" should be enough evidence

Episode 14 narrator "Goku surpassed the level of the gods"

Episode 13 Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”

Episode 15
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus. a few months later
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."
Significance: Both Vegeta and the narrator mention that Goku has "surpassed the level of (the) god(s)" (神の域を超えた/kami no iki wo koeta; literally "surpassed the realm of the gods"). This is a twist on the stock Japanese phrase 神の域に達している/kami no iki ni tasshiteiru, literally meaning to reach the realm of the gods, but used to indicate when someone has reached an extremely high level of skill, in anything from martial arts to driving skill. In most cases the phrase is used metaphorically, but in this case Goku has just become a literal god, so it's more apt than usual. The interesting thing of course is that rather than talk about Goku simply "reaching" a godly level (as in the standard phrase), Vegeta and the narrator instead talk about Goku "surpassing". Most likely this is reference to how Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God form into himself. Interestingly, in Dragon Ball Heroes, this SSG-Absorbed base form was referred to as "Saiyan Who Has Surpassed God" (神を超えたサイヤ人).

episode 16 i will surpass Goku with my own power, i will surpass the level of the Gods (Context: after Goten is amazed that Goku is now “second in the universe” next after Beerus, Goku tells Vegeta he’ll be the next to become SSG Vegeta: “If it’s only going to get me to second place, then I don’t need that power! Just wait and see, I’ll get stronger relying solely on my own power! I’ll surpass Super Saiyan God, Beerus, and you!”)

episode 16 shows that goku kept up his training because he wanted to get even stronger

no he did not get weaker

if you think i am the plug headed one you really need help your arguments are poor and you don`t listen, i won`t argue with someone who just flat out is ignorant and comes up with irrational reasons for why i am wrong, your arguments and reasoning is terrible, you interpretation of statements is even worse

there is no reason he would not in the first place what a stupid argument

No SSG is not stronger than Rage Vegeta for the 100th time

SSGSS Goku x10 < Beerus
Rage Vegeta > 10% Beerus
SSGSS>SSG
Rage Vegeta>SSG

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:38 am

it is established in episode 1 Goku took the job so he could ditch work and train

this is Goku`s mentality


 12:36 | Goku: "Goin' a whole day without trainin' just don't seem right."
 12:42 | Piccolo: "How do you feel?"
 12:44 | Goku: "Well... If I fought you right now, I'd probably lose."
 12:49 | Piccolo: "I see."

yeah he got no weaker

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:09 am

No SSG is not stronger than Rage Vegeta for the 100th time

SSGSS Goku x10 < Beerus
Rage Vegeta > 10% Beerus
I read possibly 1/50 of what's been written, but I'm afraid that there's already a crucial error here. Vegeta is less than 10%, since it's kind of (but only kind of) implied that Beerus used "near 10% of his true strenght", bluff or not is up to personal interpretation, to knock him out cold in a single hit.

I second Hitiro's advice too: I suggest you use paragraphs, quotes and at least some basic punctuation when you write online. Your texts feels rather cluttered and I think quite a lot of people may not have read what you are posting at all simply because of this.

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