Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

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Hitiro
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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:35 am

ryan s wrote:Episode 15
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus. a few months later
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."
Significance: Both Vegeta and the narrator mention that Goku has "surpassed the level of (the) god(s)" (神の域を超えた/kami no iki wo koeta; literally "surpassed the realm of the gods"). This is a twist on the stock Japanese phrase 神の域に達している/kami no iki ni tasshiteiru, literally meaning to reach the realm of the gods, but used to indicate when someone has reached an extremely high level of skill, in anything from martial arts to driving skill. In most cases the phrase is used metaphorically, but in this case Goku has just become a literal god, so it's more apt than usual. The interesting thing of course is that rather than talk about Goku simply "reaching" a godly level (as in the standard phrase), Vegeta and the narrator instead talk about Goku "surpassing". Most likely this is reference to how Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God form into himself. Interestingly, in Dragon Ball Heroes, this SSG-Absorbed base form was referred to as "Saiyan Who Has Surpassed God" (神を超えたサイヤ人).
But as Herms explains in this he surpassed it by absorbing it into him. This statement is not one about strength or even indicating that he is still as strong now as he was back then in the fight. Vegeta is quite literally saying that he surpassed SSJG which he did, he's not saying that he is still that strong.
ryan s wrote:episode 16 i will surpass Goku with my own power, i will surpass the level of the Gods (Context: after Goten is amazed that Goku is now “second in the universe” next after Beerus, Goku tells Vegeta he’ll be the next to become SSG Vegeta: “If it’s only going to get me to second place, then I don’t need that power! Just wait and see, I’ll get stronger relying solely on my own power! I’ll surpass Super Saiyan God, Beerus, and you!”)
And this means what exactly? He is stating three distinct things, it does not say where they rank or in what order he needs to surpass them. Clearly Beerus would be the final hurdle to surpass but the context of this dialogue does not say that.
ryan s wrote:episode 16 shows that goku kept up his training because he wanted to get even stronger

no he did not get weaker
Goku training does not mean that the "Crimson flame", as Beerus called it, didn't die down after the fight. Goku may be training but as he has been training the original strength has slowly lowered. For instance, in Boku No Hero Academy the "One for all" power was also called something akin to a flame that is passed down from individual to individual and the original bearer, once he has transferred the power, will still be able to use the embers that remain for a while. Before the flame finally dies out within them and then the original bearer cannot use or call upon that power any more.
ryan s wrote:if you think i am the plug headed one you really need help your arguments are poor and you don`t listen, i won`t argue with someone who just flat out is ignorant and comes up with irrational reasons for why i am wrong, your arguments and reasoning is terrible, you interpretation of statements is even worse

there is no reason he would not in the first place what a stupid argument
Nothing you've said proves that Goku still has the strength he did back when he fought Beerus. And no, it's not a stupid argument to make.
ryan s wrote:No SSG is not stronger than Rage Vegeta for the 100th time

SSGSS Goku x10 < Beerus
Rage Vegeta > 10% Beerus
SSGSS>SSG
Rage Vegeta>SSG
If SSG is not stronger than Rage Vegeta why does Beerus rank Goku as the second strongest he has ever fought apart from Monaka?
From this statement it would be:

1. Monaka
2. SSJG Goku
3. Rage Vegeta

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:03 pm

poor use of statements again and since when is herms the final authority? many statements show he surpassed SSG that is all and it is clear

you are right why did Beerus not use rage vegeta as the bar, but when has super had consistent logic?

also the many statements quoted to you clearly show Goku kept the power, not one statement says he lost it and not one good reason can be given, through many episodes it is stated he kept the power i think Toei wanted us to know something like maybe he kept the power

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ssbgoku » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:27 pm

ryan s wrote:poor use of statements again and since when is herms the final authority? many statements show he surpassed SSG that is all and it is clear

you are right why did Beerus not use rage vegeta as the bar, but when has super had consistent logic?

also the many statements quoted to you clearly show Goku kept the power, not one statement says he lost it and not one good reason can be given, through many episodes it is stated he kept the power i think Toei wanted us to know something like maybe he kept the power
You think so ?, then read this below properly and let's see if you can counter it.

You know that copy paste stuff is just annoying and does't work as absolute fact ? Anyway let's see:

1) Suprass super Saiyan god is vauge's statement, why ?, Because it was eariler noted that ssg has time limit and also there was never stated steady level of ssg for everyone ?, keeping in mind that original ssg was weaker then goku, it can be interpreted in too many ways, so no. Why I am choose other way then yours ?, just because both manga and anime has shown neither goku or vegeta having power of ssg as base. Also note bold part, Beerus specifically noted and pointed out about crimson fire burning inside him, yet we had never more indiciation of this crimson fire still burning inside him, which could mean that ss and base form against beerus were just temporary due to being boosted by this crimson fire of ssg.

2) Dragon Ball Heroes is just game and although great is not 100% accurate in everything it does. Why ? Because both managa and anime have shown that base goku/vegeta are nowhere close to ssg as beerus treat them with laugh while ssg pushed him a lot, try to counter this mr. smartass.

3) Just hype. Later on oracle fish note that goku and vegeta transforming would make them much more powerfull and if they were already ssg level in base then they could one shot beerus as ss and we know this is false. Also Whis use castle and tree example to show how far goku or vegeta is in compare to beerus. MOreover Beerus notes how much they improved but goku still points out neither he or vegeta has chance against him

Lastly, rage vegeta was only noted to push beerus to use 10% against him and yet Roshi only note him to suprass goku(ss3 at the same time). Also same with goku, who eariler mentioned fusion wouldn't be enough to beat beerus after arriving on scene and witnessing rage vegeta he only congratulates him for suprassing him(not even mention of majin buu form like gohan/gotenks absorbed). Also Combined ki goku was above rage vegeta and only his power was called as the strongest power in universe, so:

10% beerus > combined ki goku ~bog ss vegetto > buu arc ss vegetto >rage vegeta > ss3 goku

ss2 vegetto > 10% beerus

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:32 pm

ryan s wrote:poor use of statements again and since when is herms the final authority? many statements show he surpassed SSG that is all and it is clear

you are right why did Beerus not use rage vegeta as the bar, but when has super had consistent logic?

also the many statements quoted to you clearly show Goku kept the power, not one statement says he lost it and not one good reason can be given, through many episodes it is stated he kept the power i think Toei wanted us to know something like maybe he kept the power
Not one statement states he kept the power either though, so the same can be argued. And from the constant events within the show, including SSJB + KKx10. It is clear that they are nowhere near SSJG level in their SSJ forms. In fact, the fight against Trunks should be clear evidence of this. Because otherwise that means that Trunks clearly trains better than Vegeta and Goku if he can get up to the level of SSJG by himself. It's fine for them to maintain a portion of that power after the events of BoG but as we clearly see in the episode where Goku spars with Trunks it is impossible for his SSJ to be SSJG level. I find it more believable that Trunks surpassed Gohan and Gotenks than believe he has vastly outstripped them and is SSJG level in his SSJ form.

And despite what people say Super's logic hasn't been that bad. The biggest problem was the SSJB + KKx10 stuff from my opinion but then you already proved that SSJG is not 70% of Beerus as that doesn't happen in the anime. So that makes it a little easier to believe that he can still be below Beerus even with KKx10.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:27 pm

there are tons of statements that say he absorbed the power, none that he decreased in power but again we will have to agree to disagree

you seem to agree with me anyway, that in their base forms they are vastly stronger than almost everyone who appeared in z, i don`t know where base Vegito is though

Super has been that bad with logic but it is still a awesome show

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ssbgoku » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:33 pm

ryan s wrote:there are tons of statements that say he absorbed the power, none that he decreased in power but again we will have to agree to disagree

you seem to agree with me anyway, that in their base forms they are vastly stronger than almost everyone who appeared in z, i don`t know where base Vegito is though

Super has been that bad with logic but it is still a awesome show
Yeah, exactly like that ;P. Yeah I know that, still buutenks, buuhan and vegetto are only ones who I consider still releveant at least to base goku/vegeta as current ones.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:41 pm

i don`t disagree with that, they have got to at least be around or above Buuhan in base

they would certainly be above base Vegito as he would be quite weak,

i would do something like this if Goku had not absorbed the power

Goku base > Buuhan > Base Vegito

this would still make Trunks around super sayain 2 vegito level which is insane

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:48 pm

ryan s wrote:there are tons of statements that say he absorbed the power, none that he decreased in power but again we will have to agree to disagree

you seem to agree with me anyway, that in their base forms they are vastly stronger than almost everyone who appeared in z, i don`t know where base Vegito is though

Super has been that bad with logic but it is still a awesome show
There have been tons of events that clearly only work if his power has been scaled back after his fight with Beerus though. They never treat his SSJ form as it being as strong as it was during the fight with Beerus ever again. And just because something isn't stated doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

I think I made it clear that their base forms were stronger than Z characters though. And it is evident throughout the Super, up until Trunks show's up anyway but we can just accept that he trained to keep peace in the future.

There have been a lot of moments in Super where I've thought the logic was bad but after careful evaluation and things being pointed out to me the logic is actually fine. The only beef I had originally was with SSJG being 70% of Beerus but the anime doesn't make it out to be that way anymore so that is fine. It makes much more sense with the forms being much weaker than I originally thought because of the movies.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:27 pm

when it is stated he kept the power and shown in episode 14 that he did and he trained, i don`t see a reason to assume he lost any of it, you can believe he lost it that is fine but you are arguing for some type of consistency in DBS which i am not because i think the show is a mess

i disagree about the logic being fine

Rage Vegeta 10% being above SSGSS
piccolo above base Goku and Vegeta

i am sure there is more but i just enjoy the show

"I think I made it clear that their base forms were stronger than Z characters though." nope i started this thread to prove that they are above z characters in their base

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by Hitiro » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:16 pm

It is not stated that he kept it after the fight. I don't know why you keep saying this. And again, him training does not necessarily mean he kept the strength. Because the Godly strength may have faded while he was training. A lot of stories do this sort of thing. The reason to assume he lost it is because if SSJG forces Beerus to use something like 10% or more than SSJB would simply be too strong if his SSJ form equals SSJG now. It makes more sense that this power faded after his fight with Beerus and he isn't as strong as SSJG any more.

And if you think the show is a mess then I don't see why you're so adamant at having Rage Vegeta being above SSJB? You're argument is literally invalid anyway because we've already been told SSJG Goku was the second strongest Beerus has fought. Monaka being the strongest. Unless SSJB is weaker than SSJG which I actually believe.

And I don't see why you're assuming Piccolo is above Base Goku and Vegeta. You realise that Goku had beaten Frost down pretty badly. His power had dropped pretty significantly. Piccolo also still didn't stand a chance without charging a ridiculous amount of Ki into his attack to try and defeat Frost.

And yes, I did make it clear that was what I thought about base Goku and Vegeta in Super.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta don`t have to use god ki

Post by ryan s » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:23 pm

Because it is obvious he did

context makes it clear
episode 15 Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods. he evloved during his battle with Beerus, Kakarrotto i will surpass you"
episode 16 "i will surpass you Goku and show them all. with my own power, i will surpass the level of the Gods"
episode 17 narrator: "after witnessing Goku evolve during his battle with Beerus, vegeta trained so that he too could reach the level of the gods "

the narrator adds "too" so it is pretty clear Goku is above SSG otherwise they would not have to add "too" because Goku at this point would not be at the level of the gods by your reasoning as he had decreased in power which is days after or months after the Beerus fight also funny that Vegeta needs to surpass the level of the gods to surpass Goku his goal.

It said Goku surpassed the level of the Gods, he attained the power himself and it is shown during the fight. It is was not godly strength as it was made clear his power could be sensed, absorbing the power and not the ki type. you talk as if i am wrong but you are in a even worse position as i can`t see any reason why the power Goku attained had faded or would fade,there is no reason to say it faded and the logical assumption is to say it has not with the amount of statements that are repeated and shown.

context makes it so clear Goku kept the power

Because rage Vegeta has to be above SSGSS for obvious reasons, That does not make my argument invalid it means it is a contradiction, no SSG is not stronger as it is stated in the show that SSGSS is stronger and shown in the manga that it is stronger the name itself is pretty obvious

Vegeta had to turn SSJ to beat a weakened frost which still makes piccolo stronger, if frost was that much stronger he could have just broken out so piccolo is not far off

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