theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

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theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by dragonballer » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:50 pm

since god ki messed up with ssj "static" multipliers,why would kaioken stay the same? let's compare post-god ssj and kaiohken:

ssj forms kaionken boosts
base: 1 ssjb: 8
ssj: 5 (significant boost) ssjb kk: 12
ssj2,ssj3: 5 (insignificant boost) ssjb kkx3,kkx4,...: 12
(acumulated small boosts) ssjb kkx10: 16

also,kaiohken gives "false" impression of power,in saiyan-arc we have:

goku: ~8000
vegeta: 18000
goku kkx3: ~24000

goku was 1,5x stronger than vegeta but he was not able to finish the latter while namek vegeta,with 24000,killed a 18000 enemy with two hits.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:23 pm

dragonballer wrote:since god ki messed up with ssj "static" multipliers,why would kaioken stay the same?
Where is the proof that God Ki messed up the SSJ static multipliers?

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by dragonballer » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:30 pm

Hitiro wrote:
dragonballer wrote:since god ki messed up with ssj "static" multipliers,why would kaioken stay the same?
Where is the proof that God Ki messed up the SSJ static multipliers?
at least it is confirmed with ssj2 and 3,they don't have x2 and x8 now.

with normal ssj,i can't be sure,but base goku vs hit implies goku is not 50x weaker than his ssj form.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:24 pm

dragonballer wrote:at least it is confirmed with ssj2 and 3,they don't have x2 and x8 now.

with normal ssj,i can't be sure,but base goku vs hit implies goku is not 50x weaker than his ssj form.
How is it confirmed? Can you give me an example?

I don't think the Base Goku vs Hit actually shows this because you have to remember that Hit is an assassin who is trying not to kill Goku or Vegeta. That is difficult to do. Look at the fights with the Z-fighters against Freeza's army. They are exhausting themselves by restraining their abilities to levels that won't kill their opponents. And Hit automatically loses if he kills Goku in the tournament. So he is obviously going to try not to snap Goku like a twig.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by dragonballer » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:05 pm

Hitiro wrote:
dragonballer wrote:at least it is confirmed with ssj2 and 3,they don't have x2 and x8 now.

with normal ssj,i can't be sure,but base goku vs hit implies goku is not 50x weaker than his ssj form.
How is it confirmed? Can you give me an example?

I don't think the Base Goku vs Hit actually shows this because you have to remember that Hit is an assassin who is trying not to kill Goku or Vegeta. That is difficult to do. Look at the fights with the Z-fighters against Freeza's army. They are exhausting themselves by restraining their abilities to levels that won't kill their opponents. And Hit automatically loses if he kills Goku in the tournament. So he is obviously going to try not to snap Goku like a twig.
isn't it confirmed that ssj2 and 3 are not relevant anymore to goku and vegeta?

ok,lets say that hit was really hurt by a 50x weaker opponent because he was trying to catch a bug without killing it. what about goku vs "monaka"?

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:10 pm

dragonballer wrote:isn't it confirmed that ssj2 and 3 are not relevant anymore to goku and vegeta?

ok,lets say that hit was really hurt by a 50x weaker opponent because he was trying to catch a bug without killing it. what about goku vs "monaka"?
Them being irrelevant doesn't mean that their strength has changed though. Both SSJ2 and SSJ3 waste a bunch of anime being maintained and according to Akira Toriyama both Goku and Vegeta are trying to do away with any forms apart from SSJ and SSJB because they are the most stable forms. And when you think about it the difference between the forms is less of an increase when you compare it to the original SSJ form. So getting stronger in their base forms makes more sense than to rely on forms that are only a bit stronger than the original SSJ form. Why go SSJ2 when you can just train and get two 2x stronger and then be equivalent to what you would have been at SSJ2 back when you hadn't trained?

Whis pretty much said that Beerus was having difficulty because he was fighting in the suit. Trying to keep it from being destroyed while he fights as to not make Goku aware that he was fighting Beerus. The others seemed to be shocked by Goku being able to keep up with Beerus until Whis mentions this.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by dragonballer » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:48 pm

Hitiro wrote:
dragonballer wrote:isn't it confirmed that ssj2 and 3 are not relevant anymore to goku and vegeta?

ok,lets say that hit was really hurt by a 50x weaker opponent because he was trying to catch a bug without killing it. what about goku vs "monaka"?
Them being irrelevant doesn't mean that their strength has changed though. Both SSJ2 and SSJ3 waste a bunch of anime being maintained and according to Akira Toriyama both Goku and Vegeta are trying to do away with any forms apart from SSJ and SSJB because they are the most stable forms. And when you think about it the difference between the forms is less of an increase when you compare it to the original SSJ form. So getting stronger in their base forms makes more sense than to rely on forms that are only a bit stronger than the original SSJ form. Why go SSJ2 when you can just train and get two 2x stronger and then be equivalent to what you would have been at SSJ2 back when you hadn't trained?

Whis pretty much said that Beerus was having difficulty because he was fighting in the suit. Trying to keep it from being destroyed while he fights as to not make Goku aware that he was fighting Beerus. The others seemed to be shocked by Goku being able to keep up with Beerus until Whis mentions this.
why would they discard ssj2 if they can train to become 2x stronger and get another 2x on top of it?

that monaka should be at least 10% of beerus otherwise goku would be disappointed.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:09 am

Toei just doesn't care about power scaling. End of story. SSB kk x10 probably wasn't Toriyama's idea since it wasn't in the manga.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:11 am

dragonballer wrote:
Hitiro wrote:
dragonballer wrote:at least it is confirmed with ssj2 and 3,they don't have x2 and x8 now.

with normal ssj,i can't be sure,but base goku vs hit implies goku is not 50x weaker than his ssj form.
How is it confirmed? Can you give me an example?

I don't think the Base Goku vs Hit actually shows this because you have to remember that Hit is an assassin who is trying not to kill Goku or Vegeta. That is difficult to do. Look at the fights with the Z-fighters against Freeza's army. They are exhausting themselves by restraining their abilities to levels that won't kill their opponents. And Hit automatically loses if he kills Goku in the tournament. So he is obviously going to try not to snap Goku like a twig.
isn't it confirmed that ssj2 and 3 are not relevant anymore to goku and vegeta?

ok,lets say that hit was really hurt by a 50x weaker opponent because he was trying to catch a bug without killing it. what about goku vs "monaka"?
Goku's punch should of instantly killed Monaka, lol.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Khin » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:45 am

dragonballer wrote:why would they discard ssj2 if they can train to become 2x stronger and get another 2x on top of it?
They stopped using SSj2 and SSj3 because they have Super Saiyan Blue that is way stronger and more stable, it's basically the same as why Vegeta discard Grade II after he achieved FPSSj and Super Saiyan 2, even though Grade II still grants significant boost.

Plus. Hit's line entirely contradicts your theory. He sensed Goku' ki getting tripled and quadrupled, which indicates that Kaiou-ken still have the same boost as before.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:22 am

Khin wrote:
dragonballer wrote:why would they discard ssj2 if they can train to become 2x stronger and get another 2x on top of it?
They stopped using SSj2 and SSj3 because they have Super Saiyan Blue that is way stronger and more stable, it's basically the same as why Vegeta discard Grade II after he achieved FPSSj and Super Saiyan 2, even though Grade II still grants significant boost.

Plus. Hit's line entirely contradicts your theory. He sensed Goku' ki getting tripled and quadrupled, which indicates that Kaiou-ken still have the same boost as before.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Goku also says KK doubles his power when he first uses it against Hit, also reinforcing the idea it works the same way it used to.
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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Hitiro » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:34 am

dragonballer wrote:why would they discard ssj2 if they can train to become 2x stronger and get another 2x on top of it?

that monaka should be at least 10% of beerus otherwise goku would be disappointed.
I think the general thought process is that they shouldn't be becoming complacent with the fact that if they are struggling with one form that they can use another. They should be trying to make the base forms stronger than anybody else rather than thinking along the lines of "it's okay not to be stronger than this person in my base form because I can always transform."

Monaka does not need to be at least 10% of Beerus for Goku to be not disappointed. He just needs to be stronger than how strong Goku is currently. Furthermore Goku would probably be able to tell that "Monaka" wasn't giving it his all so he would think that his Base form can't push "Monaka" to use his full power.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Khin » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:50 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Goku also says KK doubles his power when he first uses it against Hit, also reinforcing the idea it works the same way it used to.
Actually, Goku said that Kaiou-ken multiplies his power, not double.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:54 am

Khin wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Goku also says KK doubles his power when he first uses it against Hit, also reinforcing the idea it works the same way it used to.
Actually, Goku said that Kaiou-ken multiplies his power, not double.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I meant it doubles his power in its standard form and multiplies it higher through bigger boosts.
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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:49 am

SSJ multipliers aren't messed up otherwise why would he use them with Future Trunks? It's so he can fight around the power of Future Trunks instead of just blowing him away with SSJ3 and above. The power-scale is completely upside down in Super when it comes to the Hit and punching Monaka stuff. It seem's to me Goku uses SSJ as "Testing the waters" to decide if he should continue on to SSJ2 and SSJ3 or if his opponent is powerful enough to handle SSJB. Kinda like how he went in Black's fight. Going from SSJ1, 2, 3, and Blue all in the same fight is just wasting time and energy, Goku's only going to use what's necessary, no more or less it seems. Also I wouldn't take Toriyama's interviews or statements as gold because Toei could always have other plans.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by dragonballer » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:24 pm

Khin wrote:
dragonballer wrote:why would they discard ssj2 if they can train to become 2x stronger and get another 2x on top of it?
They stopped using SSj2 and SSj3 because they have Super Saiyan Blue that is way stronger and more stable, it's basically the same as why Vegeta discard Grade II after he achieved FPSSj and Super Saiyan 2, even though Grade II still grants significant boost.

Plus. Hit's line entirely contradicts your theory. He sensed Goku' ki getting tripled and quadrupled, which indicates that Kaiou-ken still have the same boost as before.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
yeah,it seems my theory just got screwed :P . it still has the kaiohken's "false" power up thing,but a 70 goku vs 10 beerus doesn't work :crazy: . well,at least i have tried my best to tie super with the movies (darn it,toei!)

post-god ssj1 is almost as strong as ssjg,if he could go 2x and 8x,why wouldn't he try? if blue is more than 8x,we would have something like: ssjg being more than 8x weaker than ssjb and ssjb bellow 10% beerus,so rageta>>>>>>>>>>ssjg.
Xeztin wrote:SSJ multipliers aren't messed up otherwise why would he use them with Future Trunks? It's so he can fight around the power of Future Trunks instead of just blowing him away with SSJ3 and above. The power-scale is completely upside down in Super when it comes to the Hit and punching Monaka stuff. It seem's to me Goku uses SSJ as "Testing the waters" to decide if he should continue on to SSJ2 and SSJ3 or if his opponent is powerful enough to handle SSJB. Kinda like how he went in Black's fight. Going from SSJ1, 2, 3, and Blue all in the same fight is just wasting time and energy, Goku's only going to use what's necessary, no more or less it seems. Also I wouldn't take Toriyama's interviews or statements as gold because Toei could always have other plans.


ssj multipliers are still the same when goku does not use god ki,otherwise ssj2 trunks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ssj3 gotenks. and an another good reason for goku not using god ki is trunks can't sense god ki,so he can't compare him with black.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:43 pm

^ welcome to the forums and I suggest checking out the Super power level thread. Also in regards to your latest post there is a larger group of people on here who do believe that SSJ2 Trunks is >>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks.....

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:51 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ welcome to the forums and I suggest checking out the Super power level thread. Also in regards to your latest post there is a larger group of people on here who do believe that SSJ2 Trunks is >>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks.....
I'm one of those people, I honestly think Future Trunks at base has more strength than a base Gotenks. A fusions power depends on how strong Goten and Trunks are, who are very weak compared to the rest, and Super Saiyan 3 won't mean squat if the base isn't up to snuff. I think a Vegeta and Goku base are stronger than a SSJ3 Gotenks as well but a SSJ2 FT is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:53 pm

Xeztin wrote:
TheMikado wrote:^ welcome to the forums and I suggest checking out the Super power level thread. Also in regards to your latest post there is a larger group of people on here who do believe that SSJ2 Trunks is >>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks.....
I'm one of those people, I honestly think Future Trunks at base has more strength than a base Gotenks. A fusions power depends on how strong Goten and Trunks are, who are very weak compared to the rest, and Super Saiyan 3 won't mean squat if the base isn't up to snuff. I think a Vegeta and Goku base are stronger than a SSJ3 Gotenks as well but a SSJ2 FT is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Well it would also mean Future Trunks base is around SSJ3 Gotenks level.

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Re: theory: 10xkk ssjb is not 10x

Post by apex_pretador » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:48 am

TheMikado wrote:
Xeztin wrote:
TheMikado wrote:^ welcome to the forums and I suggest checking out the Super power level thread. Also in regards to your latest post there is a larger group of people on here who do believe that SSJ2 Trunks is >>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks.....
I'm one of those people, I honestly think Future Trunks at base has more strength than a base Gotenks. A fusions power depends on how strong Goten and Trunks are, who are very weak compared to the rest, and Super Saiyan 3 won't mean squat if the base isn't up to snuff. I think a Vegeta and Goku base are stronger than a SSJ3 Gotenks as well but a SSJ2 FT is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Well it would also mean Future Trunks base is around SSJ3 Gotenks level.
Not necessarily, base FT never did anything impressive.
However, from SS2 FT's performance against SS2 goku, we can say it was better than SS3 gotenks could've pulled off.

SS2 FT > SS3 gotenks >> Base FT

Beerus calling FT impressive only adds up to the point
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