What happened to Gohan's training?

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Kishido
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What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Kishido » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:55 pm

You know his words to Piccolo to train him again.

Currenlty it looks like he became even weaker as in RoF

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:21 pm

To avoid some arguments, can we put at the top this isn't about being a family man, or being relevant. It's just about what happened to this plot element. Cause I am pretty sick of the former argument.

Anyways, I have no damned idea. My only guess is, it was a toei idea that Toriyama had no plans for, so it was scrapped. I really have no in-universe reasoning for this. It completely shoots Gohan's character development in the foot. It'd be like if in the Pan episode, Goku said he wanted to spend more time with his family after seeing what it's like, and then just avoiding them all the time again to train. I'm of the opinion that they NEVER should have bothered teasing Gohan to go in this direction, if they wouldn't follow through with it. It just pissed off a lot of people, and went against the intended direction the story seemed to have him going.

It makes Gohan look bad that he wants to do better, but then suddenly out of nowhere quits his noble act of wanting to be stronger for his family. It half-way ruins that touching reunion he had with his family by having him back peddle, which was one of the only good things about the ROF arc and it's shittyness. I can only think in-universe he just didn't have the time, which then makes him look like an idiot for promising what he couldn't do.
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Kishido » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:27 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:To avoid some arguments, can we put at the top this isn't about being a family man, or being relevant. It's just about what happened to this plot element. Cause I am pretty sick of the former argument.

Anyways, I have no damned idea. My only guess is, it was a toei idea that Toriyama had no plans for, so it was scrapped. I really have no in-universe reasoning for this. It completely shoots Gohan's character development in the foot. It'd be like if in the Pan episode, Goku said he wanted to spend more time with his family after seeing what it's like, and then just avoiding them all the time again to train. I'm of the opinion that they NEVER should have bothered teasing Gohan to go in this direction, if they wouldn't follow through with it. It just pissed off a lot of people, and went against the intended direction the story seemed to have him going.

It makes Gohan look bad that he wants to do better, but then suddenly out of nowhere quits his noble act of wanting to be stronger for his family. It half-way ruins that touching reunion he had with his family by having him back peddle, which was one of the only good things about the ROF arc and it's shittyness. I can only think in-universe he just didn't have the time, which then makes him look like an idiot for promising what he couldn't do.
I doubt this was TOEI idea and Toriyama had no clue of it... Same the other way around that TOEI had not asked Toriyama about the future arc before producing this story element.

But I agree... It makes no sense and Gohan looks even worse as before... And on top on that it was a slap into the face of Gohan fans, who had hope after this

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:36 pm

Kishido wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:To avoid some arguments, can we put at the top this isn't about being a family man, or being relevant. It's just about what happened to this plot element. Cause I am pretty sick of the former argument.

Anyways, I have no damned idea. My only guess is, it was a toei idea that Toriyama had no plans for, so it was scrapped. I really have no in-universe reasoning for this. It completely shoots Gohan's character development in the foot. It'd be like if in the Pan episode, Goku said he wanted to spend more time with his family after seeing what it's like, and then just avoiding them all the time again to train. I'm of the opinion that they NEVER should have bothered teasing Gohan to go in this direction, if they wouldn't follow through with it. It just pissed off a lot of people, and went against the intended direction the story seemed to have him going.

It makes Gohan look bad that he wants to do better, but then suddenly out of nowhere quits his noble act of wanting to be stronger for his family. It half-way ruins that touching reunion he had with his family by having him back peddle, which was one of the only good things about the ROF arc and it's shittyness. I can only think in-universe he just didn't have the time, which then makes him look like an idiot for promising what he couldn't do.
I doubt this was TOEI idea and Toriyama had no clue of it... Same the other way around that TOEI had not asked Toriyama about the future arc before producing this story element.
I think it was. Considering how different the manga treated the subject, the fact the manga didn't mention anything about training, I think it's pretty clear. That whole training bit, Goku's attitude towards Gohan, it's handled very differently in both mediums. I think if it was a Toriyama idea, he wouldn't have dropped it this fast, and not acknowledge it at all. That fits more in line with Toei, like the whole Googeta arc which is pretty clearly a filler arc.
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Kishido » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:42 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
Kishido wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:To avoid some arguments, can we put at the top this isn't about being a family man, or being relevant. It's just about what happened to this plot element. Cause I am pretty sick of the former argument.

Anyways, I have no damned idea. My only guess is, it was a toei idea that Toriyama had no plans for, so it was scrapped. I really have no in-universe reasoning for this. It completely shoots Gohan's character development in the foot. It'd be like if in the Pan episode, Goku said he wanted to spend more time with his family after seeing what it's like, and then just avoiding them all the time again to train. I'm of the opinion that they NEVER should have bothered teasing Gohan to go in this direction, if they wouldn't follow through with it. It just pissed off a lot of people, and went against the intended direction the story seemed to have him going.

It makes Gohan look bad that he wants to do better, but then suddenly out of nowhere quits his noble act of wanting to be stronger for his family. It half-way ruins that touching reunion he had with his family by having him back peddle, which was one of the only good things about the ROF arc and it's shittyness. I can only think in-universe he just didn't have the time, which then makes him look like an idiot for promising what he couldn't do.
I doubt this was TOEI idea and Toriyama had no clue of it... Same the other way around that TOEI had not asked Toriyama about the future arc before producing this story element.
I think it was. Considering how different the manga treated the subject, the fact the manga didn't mention anything about training, I think it's pretty clear. That whole training bit, Goku's attitude towards Gohan, it's handled very differently in both mediums. I think if it was a Toriyama idea, he wouldn't have dropped it this fast, and not acknowledge it at all. That fits more in line with Toei, like the whole Googeta arc which is pretty clearly a filler arc.
I do not care about the manga to be honest... And there is a lot of different stuff in it so we now shouldn't watch Super anymore cuz actually it is jst some stupid ideas and the manga is the way to go?

Toriyama is smart enough to actually now that the most money he is doing with TOEI's anime and Bandai... So he should overlook it even more.

And even if it was TOEI's idea Toriyama could built up on it.

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by LightBing » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:19 pm

dbzfan7 second paragraph of his first post is exactly what I think. From what I've seen from Super, Mr.Toriyama only provides the story and the details he cares about, like the universal anthem joke for example. The rest is all Toei and Toyotarõ, obviously the anime has a lot more of "exclusive material" due to it's weakly nature. In this case it's exactly the modus operandi from Toei, keeping a fan favorite character innocently relevant: "Look everyone, Gohan is training again!"

Going for a in-universe explanation, since this is the in-universe section.
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:35 pm

Kishido wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
Kishido wrote:
I doubt this was TOEI idea and Toriyama had no clue of it... Same the other way around that TOEI had not asked Toriyama about the future arc before producing this story element.
I think it was. Considering how different the manga treated the subject, the fact the manga didn't mention anything about training, I think it's pretty clear. That whole training bit, Goku's attitude towards Gohan, it's handled very differently in both mediums. I think if it was a Toriyama idea, he wouldn't have dropped it this fast, and not acknowledge it at all. That fits more in line with Toei, like the whole Googeta arc which is pretty clearly a filler arc.
I do not care about the manga to be honest... And there is a lot of different stuff in it so we now shouldn't watch Super anymore cuz actually it is jst some stupid ideas and the manga is the way to go?

Toriyama is smart enough to actually now that the most money he is doing with TOEI's anime and Bandai... So he should overlook it even more.

And even if it was TOEI's idea Toriyama could built up on it.
I ain't putting the manga in a super higher regard than the anime just cause manga typically usually gets that billing. I do it because anime tends to have filler. Anime tends to have additions that aren't part of the creative vision. Pick your poison for the Hit fight as they essentially hit similar beats. Here though, I feel the Gohan thing was a sub plot they came up with, or the manga at least would have had some beat similar to the anime. They cover a similar story, so to miss this aspect makes me feel it wasn't a real story element.
LightBing wrote:dbzfan7 second paragraph of his first post is exactly what I think. From what I've seen from Super, Mr.Toriyama only provides the story and the details he cares about, like the universal anthem joke for example. The rest is all Toei and Toyotarõ, obviously the anime has a lot more of "exclusive material" due to it's weakly nature. In this case it's exactly the modus operandi from Toei, keeping a fan favorite character innocently relevant: "Look everyone, Gohan is training again!"
Exactly. Seeing his ROF movie script, it's really bare bones. It's not really that deep or anything. I believe entirely that Toei and Toyotaro fill out the blanks however they can. In the recent arcs case, we don't know how much is Toriyama's idea, and how much he was handed according to Kei's insider knowledge.
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Kishido » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:36 pm

Even if true and Toriyama just gives a rough story to them... Why not throwing this story element in. It's not like the whole arc would have changed

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Marco Polo » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:35 pm

It was filler. There I said the forbidden word.

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:24 pm

It was an almighty red herring.

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:45 pm

Maybe he is training off screen? He has more muscle mass than before.
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by 404FILENOTFOUND » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:14 am

Captain Strawberry wrote:Maybe he is training off screen? He has more muscle mass than before.
I think this too, we saw him training with Piccolo during the Champa arc. We also see him talk about conferences and babbling about how busy he was. Though with him not being with Piccolo recently he either isn't training, training on his own or just diddle

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by SSJ Human » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:34 am

Captain Strawberry wrote:Maybe he is training off screen? He has more muscle mass than before.
I noticed that too, though I chalked it up to a design change on the part of the animators.

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:44 am

SSJ Human wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:Maybe he is training off screen? He has more muscle mass than before.
I noticed that too, though I chalked it up to a design change on the part of the animators.
I actually hope the scholarship is also part of the training so he can make the ground breaking science book and become an awesome swordsman nerd
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by NitroEX » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:09 am

Don't know why you're surprised to be honest, they've been screwing Gohan over since the show started.

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by precita » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:32 am

It was a filler scene. Wasn't that obvious?

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:17 am

dbzfan7 wrote:Seeing his ROF movie script, it's really bare bones. It's not really that deep or anything.
I know he left the Z fighters' fight up to the animators but what about everyone's lines ? did he write them or just the ones relevant to the plot ?
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Rubens » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:23 am

Gohan's appearance changed overall since RoF arc; not only his muscle mass, but also his spiky hair is back. Does it mean he trains alone or with Piccolo on his free times? Maybe, maybe not. I think that, in a way, he's simply keeping in shape, probably not to be again his "ultimate" self, but just a strong and skilled super saiyan.

Toriyama said in an interview (couldn't find it to back me up, if someone please would) that while he was drawing Gohan in highschool, the super saiyaman, he acknowledge that Gohan wasn't cut out to be Goku's successor and school was more his thing. I mean, when you create a character you sort of know what would it do in certain stages of its life. (On a side note, in the manga, during Boo arc, there was an inconsistency if you recall: he willingly turned ssj2 in front of Kibito, but later against Dabura he couldn't; maybe Toriyama's idea was that super saiyan should be his limit at that point, before becoming "ultimate" - either way, it's just a supposition)

With the latest episode having Trunks reunite with Gohan, I think served two purposes:
  • To show Gohan in fact is happier around his family and his research work (so don't expect anything great from him in again in terms of power; on the other hand, who knows if his research is for the book he wrote in dragon ball online?);
  • And to motivate Trunks on setting is own purpose (that vision of his having dinner with Mai and his mother).
That's my point of view on the matter.
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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by SSJ Human » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:20 am

Captain Strawberry wrote: I actually hope the scholarship is also part of the training so he can make the ground breaking science book and become an awesome swordsman nerd
Were it to happen, it would be a good way for Online to become something this story can actually develop into. We haven't really had any other references to the game.

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Re: What happened to Gohan's training?

Post by Black Hawk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:11 pm

Rubens wrote:Toriyama said in an interview (couldn't find it to back me up, if someone please would) that while he was drawing Gohan in highschool, the super saiyaman, he acknowledge that Gohan wasn't cut out to be Goku's successor and school was more his thing.
I believe the quote you're referring to came from an interview with him in the Daizenshū 2.
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