Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by DragonBallLove » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:10 pm

I like to see this as the DC Multiverse: each timeline branching for a given Earth (Universe) affects ONLY that Earth. Case in point: Future's End, or Jon/Superboy's future only affecting Prime Earth. With F.E. there's interaction with Earth-2, and only then are two universes affected (the changes being reversed are because DC time works more like Back to the Future than like in DB, but the point stays).

I know this causes some logical loopholes and nonsense, but c'mon, DB is full of that. I know this is the "watsonian" forum, and sorry for using a "doylist" explanation, but I believe that using Ockham's razor from a narrative perspective (not for the scientific, even logical, point of view), the simplicity of the story is preserved, and that's a must in a young people's show.

And perhaps Mirai Bulma have perfected the machine? Super doesn't seem to imply the BlueTrunks travel to the present have branched time again...

TL;DR: I think time travel with Mirai Bulma's machine only affects the given universe, because the story is simpler that way and nothing have show us the contrary. I even think the machine doesnt not create divergent timelines anymore, because aforementioned reasons.

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Sandubadear » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:45 pm

DragonBallLove wrote:TL;DR: I think time travel with Mirai Bulma's machine only affects the given universe, because the story is simpler that way and nothing have show us the contrary. I even think the machine doesnt not create divergent timelines anymore, because aforementioned reasons.
Then what would happen when Champa enters Universe 7 to search for the Super DBs? Would he enter in the "Trunks timeline U7" or "Main timeline U7"?
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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Nejishiki » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:58 pm

Champa collected Super Dragon Balls from both universes and had been interacting with his same brother. Beerus was able to cross between universes himself and there was no confusion over which version of the characters were meeting each other. Otherwise, Champa or Beerus would be having conversations that would be impossible for certain versions of the same gods to recall.

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Sandubadear » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:12 pm

Yes, it would make no sense if only one universe would have a different timeline. Otherwise, if Beerus all of a sudden decided to go to Universe 6, Beerus from Trunks timeline and Beerus from the main timeline would end up meeting in Universe 6 (since only one exists) even without a time machine.
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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by DragonBallLove » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:28 pm

I see your point, but as nonsensical as it would seem, I still bet for my explanation to be true. Just because the writers are sloppy and prone to plotholes. Just wait and see.

PS: I'd love to be wrong.

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Cipher » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:31 pm

The fact that inter-universe travel exists basically confirms time travel affects every universe (the Beerus and Whis of Trunks' timeline won't be the same as those in the main series, and they can interact freely with multiple universes), and the most recent arc seems to have explicitly doubled down on this with the time rings and -- likely -- whatever the Zamasu/Black connection winds up being.
dario03 wrote:Yeah episode 54 makes it sound like it splits all. But then again maybe somebody in Universe 10 used a time machine. After all they said a new ring appeared a few years ago but Trunks just now traveled back again so shouldn't there be another new one? Doesn't the time machine always split the time line? Or maybe it takes a while for new rings to show up.
There is a minor potential plot hole with the time rings in episode 54 -- namely that Trunks' and Cell's time-traveling shenanigans created three new timelines rather than one -- but you could explain that, if you really wanted to, by assuming that each "split" universe only gets one new time ring, meaning they can't access Cell's timeline or the one his Trunks changed.

Alternately, I guess you could just assume the rings are the result of time travel in Universe 10 alone, but -- that's pretty hard to justify and it seems like a very targeted reference.

Trunks hasn't split the timeline on his most recent trip back because he hasn't, from his perspective, further changed events that have already occurred. Nothing has been "overwritten," so to speak. Were someone from the main timeline to go back (like, if someone hopped in the restored time machine now and went back to the Boo arc), that would create a new split. Alternately, were someone from Trunks' timeline to go back before he originally arrived (stacking further changes on top of his and Cell's), that would also create a new split.

As long as Trunks always visits the main timeline at a point after his last departure, he's safe. It just becomes part of that timeline's destined events. It's a little conceptual, but consistent.

Basically, there isn't an alternate timeline out there where Trunks doesn't show up after the Champa arc, because those events hadn't "happened" for anyone yet.

Or, the de facto requirement for a split is: "Does it change the history its time-traveler is familiar with?" If so, it'll create a split. And it'll further split for every back-and-forth time-traveler who already exists in that timeline and would be affected by the change (hence Cell's time travel creating both the main series' timeline and a different "future" for Trunks).

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:31 am

I think the whole Zamasu situation is proof enough that yes, it does in fact affect all the universes.
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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by darkerspare » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:41 pm

TobyS wrote:I'm dying to know about all this as well.
What bugs me is this means there are 4 sets of universes, with 4 Mira's, 4 Towa's. 4 Beerus's and 4 Whis's and 4 Omnikings.

I find it weird the omniking can be duplicated without consent. I wonder if he knows. Maybe he is outside it all like the time nest.... I'd love answers but I don't think we will get em.
This has bugged me as well, I thought it was just me. Theoretically, Future Beerus, Whis and all DBS characters exist in Trunks' timeline. Theoretically, Trunks could have Beerus and Whis meet their counterparts.

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:39 pm

Up until Battle of Gods and DB Super, I always concluded that alternate universes were created during time travel. Four, at least.

Not to sidetrack, but didn't Tapion use the time machine to go back in time in Wrath of the Dragon? That's, like, ANOTHER SET of universes being made right there!

Anyway, the idea of mini-universes in Universe 7 is a convenient simplification that I'm kind of okay with. Imagine if we had 48 Universes; 12 from each timeline!

There probably isn't a "Future Beerus" if time travel affects only one universe, though.
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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Cipher » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:05 pm

Esfír Dedragón wrote:Up until Battle of Gods and DB Super, I always concluded that alternate universes were created during time travel. Four, at least.

Not to sidetrack, but didn't Tapion use the time machine to go back in time in Wrath of the Dragon? That's, like, ANOTHER SET of universes being made right there!

Anyway, the idea of mini-universes in Universe 7 is a convenient simplification that I'm kind of okay with. Imagine if we had 48 Universes; 12 from each timeline!

There probably isn't a "Future Beerus" if time travel affects only one universe, though.
What?

Every piece of evidence we have implies that time travel actually does create an alternate timeline containing every universe. Beerus and Champa can visit each other without any confusion of which "version" of them they're meeting, after all. If only Universe 7 had alternate timelines, it'd be very confusing for Champa and other visitors, but we have no indication that's the case. The Zamasu/Black plot seems to be strongly hinting at this as well, though we'll see how it plays out.

And yes, there should be a Beerus in Trunks' timeline who's never come to Earth. Why wouldn't there be? There's a "different" Kaioshin in that timeline who wound up training Trunks, after all.

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:43 pm

Cipher wrote:
Esfír Dedragón wrote:Up until Battle of Gods and DB Super, I always concluded that alternate universes were created during time travel. Four, at least.

Not to sidetrack, but didn't Tapion use the time machine to go back in time in Wrath of the Dragon? That's, like, ANOTHER SET of universes being made right there!

Anyway, the idea of mini-universes in Universe 7 is a convenient simplification that I'm kind of okay with. Imagine if we had 48 Universes; 12 from each timeline!

There probably isn't a "Future Beerus" if time travel affects only one universe, though.
What?

Every piece of evidence we have implies that time travel actually does create an alternate timeline containing every universe. Beerus and Champa can visit each other without any confusion of which "version" of them they're meeting, after all. If only Universe 7 had alternate timelines, it'd be very confusing for Champa and other visitors, but we have no indication that's the case. The Zamasu/Black plot seems to be strongly hinting at this as well, though we'll see how it plays out.

And yes, there should be a Beerus in Trunks' timeline who's never come to Earth. Why wouldn't there be? There's a "different" Kaioshin in that timeline who wound up training Trunks, after all.
Then the Dragon Ball Universe (Omniverse?) is even bigger than any of us have imagined before.

Think of the possibilities within those layers of alternate reality! :shock:
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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Cipher » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:52 pm

Esfír Dedragón wrote:Then the Dragon Ball Universe (Omniverse?) is even bigger than any of us have imagined before.

Think of the possibilities within those layers of alternate reality! :shock:
Well, presumably the other universes within the different timelines wouldn't be all that different from one another. The only way they'd even be affected is the butterfly-effect changes on the few beings who are able to move between universes (which presumably includes only the highest gods; possibly just Whis/Vados and the King of Everthing).

Kaioshin, Beerus and Whis should be quite different in Trunks' timline, due to having different/no experiences on Earth, but their influence on other universes appears to be minimal and infrequent.

The King of Everything may wind up being fairly different as a result of meeting Goku, so I guess that would be a major change, but even he doesn't seem to tamper with existing universes on small scales.

So, like, Universe 3 is probably identical across all four known timelines.
Last edited by Cipher on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Anime Kitten » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:54 pm

Esfír Dedragón wrote:Then the Dragon Ball Universe (Omniverse?) is even bigger than any of us have imagined before.

Think of the possibilities within those layers of alternate reality! :shock:
I believe it's even bigger than we are imagining. And can imagine.
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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:08 pm

Cipher wrote:
Esfír Dedragón wrote:Up until Battle of Gods and DB Super, I always concluded that alternate universes were created during time travel. Four, at least.

Not to sidetrack, but didn't Tapion use the time machine to go back in time in Wrath of the Dragon? That's, like, ANOTHER SET of universes being made right there!

Anyway, the idea of mini-universes in Universe 7 is a convenient simplification that I'm kind of okay with. Imagine if we had 48 Universes; 12 from each timeline!

There probably isn't a "Future Beerus" if time travel affects only one universe, though.
What?

Every piece of evidence we have implies that time travel actually does create an alternate timeline containing every universe. Beerus and Champa can visit each other without any confusion of which "version" of them they're meeting, after all. If only Universe 7 had alternate timelines, it'd be very confusing for Champa and other visitors, but we have no indication that's the case. The Zamasu/Black plot seems to be strongly hinting at this as well, though we'll see how it plays out.

And yes, there should be a Beerus in Trunks' timeline who's never come to Earth. Why wouldn't there be? There's a "different" Kaioshin in that timeline who wound up training Trunks, after all.
Would that also mean that there are four Omni-Kings?
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Re: Does the time machine cause multiple time lines for all universes or just the one it is used in?

Post by Cipher » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:45 pm

Esfír Dedragón wrote:Would that also mean that there are four Omni-Kings?
We don't quite know how he works in regards to space-time, but I'd say presumably, yes.

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