What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

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Steven Bloodriver
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What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:49 am

So far, the only information I could find regarding about this mystery that has eluded me is from Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, where it seemingly says that the Super Saiyan 4 transformation is 10x a regular Super Saiyan in power.

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:10 pm

And thats pretty much the closesd you'll get anything resembling an official multiplier for the form. Anything else is made up, head-cannon.

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:11 pm

Yup, that's the only official product with any allusions to its multiplier, though I'm not completely sure any SS4's power level was actually stated in game, but was instead assumed because Ozaru Vegeta-Baby had a power level of 1.58 billion and Super 1-Star Dragon had a power level of 1.9 billion IIRC.

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:01 pm

All we know is this, Goku went from being weaker than Super Baby Vegeta to being on par with Oozaru Baby Vegeta with SSJ4.
If Oozaru works the same for Baby then he was 10x stronger which means Goku would need a greater power-up than 10x to match that, the guide multiplier is 400x for SSJ3 then SSJ4 is any number above 4000x.
Could be 4001x, 4100x, 4500x, 5000x, or higher possibly, there's no concrete figure.
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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:12 pm

My personal estimate is that SSJ4 directly corresponds to the SSJ levels.

Base SSJ4 is Ozaru multiplier of 10 x SSJ multiplier of 50
For x500
From there I believe a SSJ4 can go full power or the equivalent of SSJ2 which would be x1000.

In terms of Goku vs baby we know SSJ3 was under Baby. We also know SSJ4 didn't appear x10 stronger that SSJ3 vs baby

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:16 pm

TheMikado wrote:In terms of Goku vs baby we know SSJ3 was under Baby. We also know SSJ4 didn't appear x10 stronger that SSJ3 vs baby
How exactly does one know that?

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:19 pm

I go with an x5000 times base multiplier. Golden Oozaru is x500 (SS1s + Oozaru) and once Goku compresses all of that power into a smaller, more controllable form, it becomes ten times stronger from there. There's also the fact 4 is called a potential unlock too, I believe Vegeta went from being far inferior to Goku to being on par with him upon attaining 4.
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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by Pantalones » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:45 pm

Considering that it's apparently been described as unlocking potential... why not have Golden Oozaru be the expected 500x increase (Super Saiyan and Oozaru multipliers on top of each other) and then SSj4 also be 500x but with a potential-unlocking effect triggered upon first transforming so it seems like a much more drastic increase than that if the character transforming still has a lot of untapped potential? Then maybe "beyond limits/full power" SSj4 could be something along the lines of a 2x boost on top of that, mirroring Super Saiyan 2's increase over regular Super Saiyan.

Or maybe SSj4 could just be 1000x from the beginning (so just like Golden Oozaru is "Super Oozaru," the SSj4 form would basically be "Super Oozaru 2"), and "beyond limits/full power" SSj4 could be some boost on top of that -- either a potential-unlock, or a flat 4x increase (bringing the boost to 4000x) to continue the mirroring of SSj form boosts (SSj4 Beyond Limits being essentially "Super Oozaru 3.")

...I think I like the "500x with potential unlock" version a bit better though, fits better with Vegeta suddenly leaping up to being on par with Goku near the end (maybe he unlocked his "raging Vegeta makes Beerus actually use a tiny bit of effort for a second" level of power? XD)

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by Xeztin » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:09 pm

Pantalones wrote:Considering that it's apparently been described as unlocking potential... why not have Golden Oozaru be the expected 500x increase (Super Saiyan and Oozaru multipliers on top of each other) and then SSj4 also be 500x but with a potential-unlocking effect triggered upon first transforming so it seems like a much more drastic increase than that if the character transforming still has a lot of untapped potential? Then maybe "beyond limits/full power" SSj4 could be something along the lines of a 2x boost on top of that, mirroring Super Saiyan 2's increase over regular Super Saiyan.

Or maybe SSj4 could just be 1000x from the beginning (so just like Golden Oozaru is "Super Oozaru," the SSj4 form would basically be "Super Oozaru 2"), and "beyond limits/full power" SSj4 could be some boost on top of that -- either a potential-unlock, or a flat 4x increase (bringing the boost to 4000x) to continue the mirroring of SSj form boosts (SSj4 Beyond Limits being essentially "Super Oozaru 3.")

...I think I like the "500x with potential unlock" version a bit better though, fits better with Vegeta suddenly leaping up to being on par with Goku near the end (maybe he unlocked his "raging Vegeta makes Beerus actually use a tiny bit of effort for a second" level of power? XD)
I really wished GT continued for a bit longer just so we could get solid facts, SSJ4 was really one of the coolest designs that just didn't get a long enough run or backstory honestly.

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:14 pm

Pantalones wrote:Considering that it's apparently been described as unlocking potential... why not have Golden Oozaru be the expected 500x increase (Super Saiyan and Oozaru multipliers on top of each other) and then SSj4 also be 500x but with a potential-unlocking effect triggered upon first transforming so it seems like a much more drastic increase than that if the character transforming still has a lot of untapped potential? Then maybe "beyond limits/full power" SSj4 could be something along the lines of a 2x boost on top of that, mirroring Super Saiyan 2's increase over regular Super Saiyan.

Or maybe SSj4 could just be 1000x from the beginning (so just like Golden Oozaru is "Super Oozaru," the SSj4 form would basically be "Super Oozaru 2"), and "beyond limits/full power" SSj4 could be some boost on top of that -- either a potential-unlock, or a flat 4x increase (bringing the boost to 4000x) to continue the mirroring of SSj form boosts (SSj4 Beyond Limits being essentially "Super Oozaru 3.")

...I think I like the "500x with potential unlock" version a bit better though, fits better with Vegeta suddenly leaping up to being on par with Goku near the end (maybe he unlocked his "raging Vegeta makes Beerus actually use a tiny bit of effort for a second" level of power? XD)
That actually makes sense, I always considered SSJ4 to have no upper limit so that's a good baseline

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:16 pm

RandomGuy came up with a 40,000x base multiplier a while back that made more sense than anything else I've seen since then, so when I bother with this stuff, I usually just go with that.
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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:34 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy came up with a 40,000x base multiplier a while back that made more sense than anything else I've seen since then, so when I bother with this stuff, I usually just go with that.
I would say that is too high but then again this is GT we're talking about, Base Vegeta was humiliated by two lax SSJs while Base Goku handled them rather easily and then later they were somehow equal in power.
I guess SSJ4 brings out limits that are apparently necessary for a fight so why shouldn't Vegeta pull out 40,000x out of his ass to match Goku all of a sudden?
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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:05 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy came up with a 40,000x base multiplier a while back that made more sense than anything else I've seen since then, so when I bother with this stuff, I usually just go with that.
I would say that is too high but then again this is GT we're talking about, Base Vegeta was humiliated by two lax SSJs while Base Goku handled them rather easily and then later they were somehow equal in power.
I guess SSJ4 brings out limits that are apparently necessary for a fight so why shouldn't Vegeta pull out 40,000x out of his ass to match Goku all of a sudden?
Everyone uses that scene completely incorrectly.
Gohan was baby possessed which is a power boost itself and different from being a baby minion. It's the same reason baby Goten beat down Gohan or why baby SSJ2 Vegeta beats SSJ3 Goku. I swear everytime I hear someone say that I always wonder if they actually watched GT or just saw a clip out of context.

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:06 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy came up with a 40,000x base multiplier a while back that made more sense than anything else I've seen since then, so when I bother with this stuff, I usually just go with that.
What I was the reason because that sounds completely bananas?

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:09 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy came up with a 40,000x base multiplier a while back that made more sense than anything else I've seen since then, so when I bother with this stuff, I usually just go with that.
What I was the reason because that sounds completely bananas?
Seconded, I really wanna hear this cause it sounds nuts.
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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:18 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy came up with a 40,000x base multiplier a while back that made more sense than anything else I've seen since then, so when I bother with this stuff, I usually just go with that.
What I was the reason because that sounds completely bananas?
Seconded, I really wanna hear this cause it sounds nuts.
I too used this theory back on Neoseeker in 2011 or thereabouts, so I think I can explain the logic behind it:

SS3 Goku is weaker than Vegeta-Baby, who then goes on to transform 2 more times and later gets Ozaru on top of that.
For convenience and neatness sake the first two transformations were basically viewed as Vegeta-Baby's SS2 and SS3 transformations, lining up with him infecting Vegeta, when the Saiyan was a Super Saiyan, so the SEG multipliers applies and you end up with:

SS3 Goku: 400.
Vegeta-Baby: 500.
-"Super Saiyan 2": 1,000.
-"Super Saiyan 3": 4,000.
--Golden Ozaru: 40,000.

Since Goku in Super Saiyan 4 is more or less equal with Golden Ozaru Vegeta-Baby, the boost has to be 40,000x base power.

QED.

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:21 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
What I was the reason because that sounds completely bananas?
Seconded, I really wanna hear this cause it sounds nuts.
I too used this theory back on Neoseeker in 2011 or thereabouts, so I think I can explain the logic behind it:

SS3 Goku is weaker than Vegeta-Baby, who then goes on to transform 2 more times and later gets Ozaru on top of that.
For convenience and neatness sake the first two transformations were basically viewed as Vegeta-Baby's SS2 and SS3 transformations, lining up with him infecting Vegeta, when the Saiyan was a Super Saiyan, so the SEG multipliers applies and you end up with:

SS3 Goku: 400.
Vegeta-Baby: 500.
-"Super Saiyan 2": 1,000.
-"Super Saiyan 3": 4,000.
--Golden Ozaru: 40,000.

Since Goku in Super Saiyan 4 is more or less equal with Golden Ozaru Vegeta-Baby, the boost has to be 40,000x base power.

QED.
That makes a surprising amount of sense actually. Still, Goku does need to absorb the other Saiyan's strength to beat Golden Oozaru Baby so the boost doesn't have to be 40 000x base power. Especially since FPSS4 is treated is a pretty significant increase in power for Goku.
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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:27 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy came up with a 40,000x base multiplier a while back that made more sense than anything else I've seen since then, so when I bother with this stuff, I usually just go with that.
What I was the reason because that sounds completely bananas?
Seconded, I really wanna hear this cause it sounds nuts.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Either he was suppressed or Roshi was simply very weak early on.

Something I noticed: the statements about Super Vegetto being about equal to Baby Saga SS4 Goku match perfectly with the SEG implying that Vegetto is Goku x Vegeta.

Let me explain. As I've said a thousand times, I believe that SS4 is a x40,000 multiplier based on the Baby fight, where Super Baby 1 stomped SS3 Goku hard, then went to Super Baby 2, then Super Baby 3, then Golden Ape Baby, and then was only equal with SS4 Goku.
I base that mostly on the fight with Baby. Goku attacks Super Baby 1 in SS3 form and gets his ass kicked. This is his first form of three. I believe the GT Perfect Files compare his forms to SS forms... and why wouldn't they be? He's possessing Vegeta. Anyway, so in his equivalent of an SS form he kicks the crap out of Goku. That means he's over 400 times stronger than base Goku. Then he goes to his second form, then his third. Going by the multipliers that would put him over 3,200 Goku's base. Goku returns and transforms into a Golden Ape, making him x4,000 his base (SS3 x 10). Then he becomes a SS4 and lays the beat down on third form Baby. Then Baby transforms into a Golden Ape himself and is equal with SS4 Goku. If Baby was x500 stronger than base Goku in his first form, then everything else would fit together perfectly- he was strong enough to stomp Goku in that form. Yet his Golden Ape wasn't stomping SS4 Goku.
Another interesting tidbit is the infamous statement in the GT Perfect Files that Gohan never slacked off in his training. That basically says base Gohan in GT is at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan from Z.

Now here's where things get crazy. During the Baby Saga, base Goku effortlessly one-shots Baby Gohan just in base, even though Baby Gohan was a Super Saiyan. Ignoring any power up he may have gotten from being possessed, GT Super Saiyan Gohan would be Ultimate Gohan x 50. By my levels that'd by 160 billion x 50 = 8 trillion. Since base Goku thrashed him effortlessly, let's put him at 12 trillion.

Now, also using my levels for Goku and Vegeta, let's see how strong Vegetto would be if you take the SEG statement literally...

Vegetto- 100,000,000 x 100,000,000 = 10 quadrillion
-Base Vegetto x 50 = Super Vegetto: 500 quadrillion

Now, with my multiplier based on evidence from the Baby fight + the statements from the GT Perfect Files + Goku's feats against SS Baby Gohan, let's see how strong he is...

Goku- 12 trillion
-Base Goku x 40,000 = 480 quadrillion.

There you have it. Super Vegetto is "perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4", that is, the only Super Saiyan 4 that existed at the time that statement was made, and is still Goku x Vegeta. Let me know if I made an error.
There was more, but this was years ago, and I can't be bothered searching through dozens of pages of the power levels thread :P

Random should be tagged by this, so he can go over all of it if he wants to later.
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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:27 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Seconded, I really wanna hear this cause it sounds nuts.
I too used this theory back on Neoseeker in 2011 or thereabouts, so I think I can explain the logic behind it:

SS3 Goku is weaker than Vegeta-Baby, who then goes on to transform 2 more times and later gets Ozaru on top of that.
For convenience and neatness sake the first two transformations were basically viewed as Vegeta-Baby's SS2 and SS3 transformations, lining up with him infecting Vegeta, when the Saiyan was a Super Saiyan, so the SEG multipliers applies and you end up with:

SS3 Goku: 400.
Vegeta-Baby: 500.
-"Super Saiyan 2": 1,000.
-"Super Saiyan 3": 4,000.
--Golden Ozaru: 40,000.

Since Goku in Super Saiyan 4 is more or less equal with Golden Ozaru Vegeta-Baby, the boost has to be 40,000x base power.

QED.
That makes a surprising amount of sense actually. Still, Goku does need to absorb the other Saiyan's strength to beat Golden Oozaru Baby so the boost doesn't have to be 40 000x base power. Especially since FPSS4 is treated is a pretty significant increase in power for Goku.
Ok, I see the problem with the logic. It presumes the baby boost multiples with the SSJ increase. My theory only applies to the Saiyan body and thus the SSJ multipliers only apply to the Saiyans body with the parasite power being additive to that rather than multiplying as well.

It's the reason baby could go through so many transformations and still end up near equal to Goku. As the multiplier increases the proportion of the total SSJ power as the addition becomes lessened.
Last edited by TheMikado on Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:29 pm

TheMikado wrote: Ok, I see the problem with the logic. It presumes the baby boost multiples with the SSJ increase. My theory only applies to the Saiyan body and thus the SSJ multipliers only apply to the Saiyans body with the parasite power being additive to that rather than multiplying as well.
An unproven theory can't really be said to have a "problem" if the only thing that disproves it is another unproven theory.
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