Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

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Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:18 pm

Let's say that after witnessing Ultimate Gohan being beaten down by Super Buu (Buutenks), the Elder Supreme Kai had suggested the SSJ4 transformation to Goku instead of the Potara, and after helping Goku achieve this form, would it have been enough to make Goku strong enough to defeat both Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo Absorbed), Buuhan, and/or the pure form of Buu?

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:23 pm

The GT Perfect Files put SS4 Goku's power around Vegetto's, so probably.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by MaxZ » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:34 pm

No.

SSJ4 is supposedly 10x stronger than SSJ3

that's roughly as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks, conservatively

Ultimate Gohan is still much stronger than a hypothetical SSJ4 Goku from the Buu Saga.

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Ash57 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:11 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:The GT Perfect Files put SS4 Goku's power around Vegetto's, so probably.
No, it doesn't at all. This is a fan-made myth. What actually said SSJ4 Goku's power was around Vegetto's was a Chinese Hero Fan Comics, which i don't think shouldn't be taken as reliable since Super Baby Vegeta 1 is implied to be > Vegetto on GT.

No.

SSJ4 is supposedly 10x stronger than SSJ3

that's roughly as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks, conservatively

Ultimate Gohan is still much stronger than a hypothetical SSJ4 Goku from the Buu Saga.
SSJ4 being 10x SSj3 is another fan-made thing which i'm completely unsure of the original source.

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The most factual answer you can get, combining the original manga, the Daizenshuu, AND Gt Perfect Files, is a "no"

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”

Here Elder Kaioshin says his ability can draw someone's hidden power wa~~~aaay above their limits. Therefore, so far we have:
Ultimate Gohan >>>>> Gohan at his Limits >> Normal Gohan
Daizenshuu 2 wrote:He's a pacifist who from the time he was little has dreamed of becoming a scholar, rather than fighting. Because he is half Saiyan and half Earthling, his latent power is above average, but since he doesn't like voluntarily fighting or training, it was essential that he be trained by Piccolo and his father Goku. He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku
Daizenshuu 2 states Gohan potentially has power greater than Goku's. The "potentially" means Gohan's potential is above Goku's. Therefore;
Gohan's Potential > Goku's Potential
Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P4.9, P5.1-2
Context: after Gohan’s unintentional display of power
Goku: “…Am…amazin’…So he really wasn’t just some regular dirty old geezer?...*talking to Kaioshin* ‘Do-dormant ability’…That’s a person’s true power, that they have hidden all along…Right?”
Kaioshin: “Ye-yeah…I-I think so…”
Goku: “Mu-must be…Man, Go-Gohan…Just how the heck much power is he hidin'?...”
Here, Goku is completely flabbergasted by Gohan's potential, going as far as to say "how the heck much power is he hiding?" this is yet another confirmation that Gohan's potential not only surpasses, but FAR surpasses what Goku could reach at the time. Therefore;
Gohan's Potential >>>> Goku's Potential is proven and supported both by Daizenshuu 2 and the manga.

Now moving onto GT Perfect Files;
Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!!
Here, GT Perfect Files states Super Saiyan 4 draws a person's power to its utmost limits.

Combining all of this information
-Super Saiyan 4 draws the Saiyan's power to its utmost limits.
-Gohan's limits are implied to be far bigger than Goku's according to both Daizenshuu 2 and the manga
-Elder Kaioshin's unlock not only brings a person to its 'utmost limits', it actually brings it 'wa~~aay, wa~~aaay, waa~aaaaaay past their limits"

Therefore, Boo Saga Super Saiyan 4 Goku wouldn't even stand a chance against Ultimate Gohan. The final chains are:
Ultimate Gohan(Gohan Way Past his Limits) >>>>>> Boo Saga SSJ4 Goku(Goku at his Limits)
Gohan's Broken Limits >>>>>> Gohan's Limits >>>> Goku's Limits

It's such a ridiculously gargantuan gap that i doubt Goku is even touching any form of Gotenks(but Base), let alone Gohan.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Anime Kitten » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:19 pm

Ash57 wrote:*snippety snipper*
Wow. I love this post so much. :clap: I think I'll sig it for a while, if that's okay.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:26 pm

Ash57 wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:The GT Perfect Files put SS4 Goku's power around Vegetto's, so probably.
No, it doesn't at all. This is a fan-made myth. What actually said SSJ4 Goku's power was around Vegetto's was a Chinese Hero Fan Comics, which i don't think shouldn't be taken as reliable since Super Baby Vegeta 1 is implied to be > Vegetto on GT
Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Anime Kitten » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:27 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Welcome to Kanzenshuu, man. :mrgreen:
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Ash57 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:28 pm

Anime Kitten wrote:
Ash57 wrote:*snippety snipper*
Wow. I love this post so much. :clap: I think I'll sig it for a while, if that's okay.
No prob.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Bullza » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:37 pm

Ash57 wrote:No, it doesn't at all. This is a fan-made myth.
It is? I've seen that mentioned a lot before, even here and I've never seen anyone say that it was false.

Also you quoted a statement from the Daizenshuu 2. Where did you quote that from? I'd like to see the English translation of the Daizenshuu myself to read through. Is it buried somewhere on this forum?

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Ash57 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:55 pm

Bullza wrote:
Ash57 wrote:No, it doesn't at all. This is a fan-made myth.
It is? I've seen that mentioned a lot before, even here and I've never seen anyone say that it was false.

Also you quoted a statement from the Daizenshuu 2. Where did you quote that from? I'd like to see the English translation of the Daizenshuu myself to read through. Is it buried somewhere on this forum?
1. Yes, it is a myth. The GT Perfect Files doesn't actually say this. The guidebook which states it is a chinese comics. Here is Herms's GTPF thread: viewtopic.php?t=14812

2. I got it from here. Just press CTRL + F and search for "Son Gohan"
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Black Hawk » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:07 am

Ash57 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Ash57 wrote:No, it doesn't at all. This is a fan-made myth.
It is? I've seen that mentioned a lot before, even here and I've never seen anyone say that it was false.
1. Yes, it is a myth. The GT Perfect Files doesn't actually say this. The guidebook which states it is a chinese comics. Here is Herms's GTPF thread: viewtopic.php?t=14812
I could certainly be mistaken, but I believe the whole Vegetto and Super Saiyajin 4 comparison was in the Dragon Ball GT animanga, published by Shueisha.
DBGT Anime Comics wrote:Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:40 am

Black Hawk wrote:
Ash57 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
It is? I've seen that mentioned a lot before, even here and I've never seen anyone say that it was false.
1. Yes, it is a myth. The GT Perfect Files doesn't actually say this. The guidebook which states it is a chinese comics. Here is Herms's GTPF thread: viewtopic.php?t=14812
I could certainly be mistaken, but I believe the whole Vegetto and Super Saiyajin 4 comparison was in the Dragon Ball GT animanga, published by Shueisha.
DBGT Anime Comics wrote:Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!
Yeah, it's from the animation comic "Dragon ball GT TV Special "and it is published by Shueisha.

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:38 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:The GT Perfect Files put SS4 Goku's power around Vegetto's, so probably.
But remember, Goku's base in GT is very strong!!!

MaxZ wrote:No.

SSJ4 is supposedly 10x stronger than SSJ3
I'm not here to spark debates but that's fan speculation. For all we know, SSJ4 might be 1.5x or 2x stronger than SSJ3. We don't need crazy multipliers to be much stronger than someone. Or even some percentages more.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:12 am

I subscribe to the logical multiplier of the Oozaru form which is x10.

Starting at a base of 1 we know SSJ gives an x50 boost, using SSJ4 which is a combination of both should give a minimum of x500, so stronger than SSJ3s x400. Further because it's based on SSJ there should theoretically be advanced levels which corresponds to the other SSJ multiplers. In theory a SSJ4-2 would be x1000, which is what I think we get when Goku goes SSJ4 Full Power.

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Ash57 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:04 am

Are those "Dragon Ball GT Comics" made by GT's staff like GT Perfect Files? Because as far as i remember none of the people working on Shueisha were involved on creating GT.

Not to mention the statement is incredibly vague(referring to the transformation instead of one of the users) and also seems to be dismissed by the implications of Baby Vegeta > Vegetto on GT.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Herms » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:10 am

Ash57 wrote:Are those "Dragon Ball GT Comics" made by GT's staff like GT Perfect Files? Because as far as i remember none of the people working on Shueisha were involved on creating GT.
It and the Perfect Files were both published by Shueisha, just like all other official DB books. Shueisha was no less involved with GT than any other part of DB.
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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:10 pm

Herms wrote:
Ash57 wrote:Are those "Dragon Ball GT Comics" made by GT's staff like GT Perfect Files? Because as far as i remember none of the people working on Shueisha were involved on creating GT.
It and the Perfect Files were both published by Shueisha, just like all other official DB books. Shueisha was no less involved with GT than any other part of DB.
Mr. Herms, the Zeno of the real world, what are your thoughts about SSJ4 Goku from the Majin Buu Saga of Dragon Ball Z being stronger than Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu (Buutenks)?

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by buutenks » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:56 pm

Ash57 wrote:lots of writing

Nice post. Never thought of it that way.

But, I think Goku would be able to beat Super Buu, if its just Super Buu, since as a ssj4, he doesnt have such a short time limit.

Even tho hed lose to Gohan.

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:32 pm

buutenks wrote:
Ash57 wrote:lots of writing

Nice post. Never thought of it that way.

But, I think Goku would be able to beat Super Buu, if its just Super Buu, since as a ssj4, he doesnt have such a short time limit.

Even tho hed lose to Gohan.
A hypothetical SSJ4 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) would absolutely destroy any form of Majin Buu; Kid Buu (an equal to Goku as a SSJ3), South Kaioshin Absorbed Kid Buu (who is not as strong as Buuhan), Innocent Buu (weaker than Goku as a SSJ3), Pure Evil Buu (only moderately stronger than Innocent Buu), Base Super Buu (somewhat weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks), SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is only a little more powerful than Ultimate Gohan), Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan), and perhaps even Buuhan himself (as seen in the fight with Son Goku, Vegeta, and their fusion as Vegito, Buuhan would hold back at first against his opponents before finally getting serious, but Super Saiyan 4 Goku would have not been holding himself back at all against the one who had killed most of his loved ones).

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Re: Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:39 pm

You do realize that a 10x power boost is a pretty big deal right?

The single biggest power boost form wise is SS1 which grants 50x the users base power, SS2 merely doubles that power (x2) and SS3 quadruples it (X4). SS4 having a 10x power boost is a gigantic improvement over SS3 especial when you consider the fact that the form doesn't seem to have 3's flaws.

Get over the fact that the red monkey form isn't some uber powerful, curb stomping, beat all transformation.

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