Uub and Buu fusion, not that strong in a sense

[Xyex]

Not touching on the GT part of this as I've still not seen those episodes but...

so (and i'm seriously curious), could say...Gohan have beaten kid buu by himself if he were to fight....or perhaps gotenks? Gohan was able to pummell normal super boo, and gotenks was wearing him down before the fusion wore off. It's just hard to believe that kid buu is weaker then super boo. I mean...I will admit that super boo with gohan, gotenks, and piccolo absorbed was definitely stronger then kid buu....but just regular super boo was stronger then kid buu?! It seems like kid buu would be at least at the same level. Can I get some evidence behind this please?

Yes. Mystic Gohan or SSJ3 Gotenks could have pounded Kid Buu into pulp without even breaking a sweat. A lot of the evidence is presented in the fight between Goku and Buu, as well as previous fights and statements. Goku said (and I'm paraphrasing this part, can't remember the exact line) that "He could probably beat Kid Buu if he could get back all of his energy and return to full power." when he was asking Vegeta to stall.

Earlier, it's stated that SSJ Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku (Goku says this). So, we have SSJ Gotenks as stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is about equal to Kid Buu, perhaps a little weaker. And then, of course, there's the fact that Mystic Gohan is a lot stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks is. So, in the end, it's shown in the series by evidence that Kid Buu's strength is between that of Fat Buu and Super Buu.

[Rocketman]

Earlier, it's stated that SSJ Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku (Goku says this).

I've heard this said a few times, when did Goku say this?

[Socar15]

Earlier, it's stated that SSJ Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku (Goku says this).

I've heard this said a few times, when did Goku say this?

Since Xyex had to leave, I told him I'd go ahead and address this.

Ok, in chapter 4 of Volume 40, Goku tells Piccolo that Buu seemed satisfied that someone stronger than himself would show up to fight him (that was on about page 9 of that chapter). About 2 pages later, Goku says that when he saw the potential of Trunks and Goten, it would be a safe bet.

Now back in the final chapter of Volume 39, Goku says that Trunks and Goten will only be able to stay fused for 30 minutes. Piccolo expresses concerns about the time limit, but Goku reassures him that fusion is powerful enough that 30 minutes will be plenty of time. He also tells them that they will have to master fusion while in the SSJ state. Now even though Trunks and Goten later figure out that it’s possible to later transform into the SSJ state after they fused, Goku obviously doesn’t know this. This also implies that Goku didn’t think that after they fused they would be able to reach a state past SSJ, which means that Goku believed SSJ Gotenks would be more than enough to beat Buu.

Further supporting this is the fact that when Goku first sees Gotenks in SSJ3 state, he acts very surprised and says that he can’t believe they were able to do that (this in the 8th chapter of Volume 41, about page 12 or so).

And no, I don’t believe that Goku ever just flat out stated that SSJ Gotenks was stronger than his own SSJ3 (even though he did say that a figher stronger than himself would show up to fight Buu, which he's obviously referring to Gotenks), but it does seem to make sense with everything else taken into consideration.

[Rocketman]

(even though he did say that a figher stronger than himself would show up to fight Buu, which he's obviously referring to Gotenks)

But when he said that, the kids hadn't even Danced once, much less become Gotenks. Goku was BS-ing and hoping the fusion would be enough/the thought of a strong opponent would stall Buu and let the kids train. He probably had already thought of the Time Chamber, so he knew if it bought them even a day, the kids could get a year's worth stronger.

[Socar15]

(even though he did say that a figher stronger than himself would show up to fight Buu, which he's obviously referring to Gotenks)

But when he said that, the kids hadn't even Danced once, much less become Gotenks. Goku was BS-ing and hoping the fusion would be enough/the thought of a strong opponent would stall Buu and let the kids train. He probably had already thought of the Time Chamber, so he knew if it bought them even a day, the kids could get a year's worth stronger.

Goku's not stupid. He even said that they shouldn't use the RoSaT when they do it, and that they'd probably need it sometime later in the future (this is when he had only known Fat Buu's power, and not Super Buu who came later).

Second, he had seen people do fusion before in the afterlife. He had seen how much more powerful it had made them. So after having Trunks and Goten demonstrate their SSJ power for him, he probably estimated that their fusion would be strong enough to beat Fat Buu.

Furthermore, even if he was counting on them using the RoSaT, that doesn't really change much from what I said in my previous post. The fact is, Goku left Earth believing that a fused Trunks and Goten would be sufficient to beat Fat Buu, and since he obviously was not expecting them to go SSJ3 (or anything above SSJ for that matter), it's pretty clear that he was banking on SSJ Gotenks' power.

[Deus ex Machina]

Just because Goku was counting on Super Gotenks being strong enough to defeat the fat Majin Boo, it doesn't make a very strong argument for SSJ3 Gotenks being stronger than Goku. After all Goku states plainly that he could've destroyed the fat Majin Boo as well.

So all that proves is that they were both stronger than fat Boo, with no strong indication of which was stronger.

[Socar15]

Just because Goku was counting on Super Gotenks being strong enough to defeat the fat Majin Boo, it doesn't make a very strong argument for SSJ3 Gotenks being stronger than Goku. After all Goku states plainly that he could've destroyed the fat Majin Boo as well.

So all that proves is that they were both stronger than fat Boo, with no strong indication of which was stronger.

First off, we're talking about SSJ Gotenks, not SSJ3. Second, part of the point I was trying to make in my original post was that even though Goku didn't flat out say it, he did say that a fighter stronger than him would show up to defeat Fat Buu (and at the time he said that, he didn't know about Gohan still being alive, nor that Gotenks would be able to surpass SSJ), so it seems as if he was implying that he believed that a fused Trunks and Goten in SSJ would be stronger than himself.

[Metrite]

he did say that a fighter stronger than him would show up to defeat Fat Buu

When Goku talked to Buu he only said the ones they were after would come in a couple days, he never told Buu they'd be stronger than him(and he held back, anyway). And it seems unlikely Goku would instantly be able to know the exact strength they'd have from the fusion and how much they could improve in such a short time(he even said himself he knew it was quite a gamble). One thing that is made perfectly clear by numerous examples in the Buu saga is that the characters can't just glance at eachother and instantly tell who the winner would be, they need to actualy fight before they can tell how they compare.

[desirecampbell]

My thoughts exactly. Goku guesses that SSj Gotenks will be strong enough to defeat Fat Buu, he doesn't know, he's guessing. And while we should hold Goku's estimate with considerable weight, it's not direct evidence. Even if Goku's right it doesn't mean Gotenks is stronger than he is, do we ever see Goku fight Fat Buu at a level lower than SSj3?

[Kaboom]

My thoughts exactly. Goku guesses that SSj Gotenks will be strong enough to defeat Fat Buu, he doesn't know, he's guessing. And while we should hold Goku's estimate with considerable weight, it's not direct evidence. Even if Goku's right it doesn't mean Gotenks is stronger than he is, do we ever see Goku fight Fat Buu at a level lower than SSj3?

Sorta. He did fight (and do pretty well) against Kid Buu, who's stronger than Fat Buu, later at just SSj2 for a while before having to ascend.

[Socar15]

he did say that a fighter stronger than him would show up to defeat Fat Buu

When Goku talked to Buu he only said the ones they were after would come in a couple days, he never told Buu they'd be stronger than him(and he held back, anyway).

Actually, as soon as he got back from the Fat Buu fight, he DID tell Piccolo that the prospect of fighting someone stronger than Goku made Buu happy. I mean, sure, it's not direct evidence, as I pointed out in my original post. But it sure seems as if Toriyama is implying that SSJ Gotenks would be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

And it seems unlikely Goku would instantly be able to know the exact strength they'd have from the fusion and how much they could improve in such a short time(he even said himself he knew it was quite a gamble). One thing that is made perfectly clear by numerous examples in the Buu saga is that the characters can't just glance at eachother and instantly tell who the winner would be, they need to actualy fight before they can tell how they compare.

My thoughts exactly. Goku guesses that SSj Gotenks will be strong enough to defeat Fat Buu, he doesn't know, he's guessing. And while we should hold Goku's estimate with considerable weight, it's not direct evidence.

I would actually give more credit to it than just a guess. If Goku hadn't been sure about Gotenks' power, I highly doubt he would have left the Earth in his hands. I mean, Goku later said that he could've beaten Fat Buu if he had wanted to, and considering that it was his and Vegeta's fight that released Fat Buu in the first place, he must've felt somewhat responsible. So, despite the fact that he was estimating, he must have been pretty damn sure it was going to be more than enough. As I said before, Goku most likely attributed the fusion he had already witnessed in the afterlife to Trunks and Goten's SSJ power, and realized that it was going to be far more than enough. And remember, Goku DID tell Piccolo that a fighter stronger than himself would show up. I don't really think he would've just made a remark about that if he hadn't meant it. I mean, if he hadn't really been all that sure, why wouldn't he have just said "someone strong enough to beat Fat Buu"? I don't think he would've gotten that specific saying it would be stronger than himself if he wasn't pretty dang sure.

And again, I know this isn't evidence (as I originally pointed out). But in the manga world, when stuff like this is kinda almost spelled out for us almost, it seems like a safe stance.

Even if Goku's right it doesn't mean Gotenks is stronger than he is, do we ever see Goku fight Fat Buu at a level lower than SSj3?

Well, in the manga anyway, we see SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (who was basically equal with SSJ2 Goku) fight Fat Buu. Once Fat Buu powered up more, Vegeta got totally trashed, to the point where he realized the only thing he could do was blow himself up and try to take Buu with him. And Goku even said that anything lower than SSJ3 wouldn't be a challenge for Fat Buu.

Sorta. He did fight (and do pretty well) against Kid Buu, who's stronger than Fat Buu, later at just SSj2 for a while before having to ascend.

I'm not sure if you want to use that though, considering it was anime-only.

[Duo]

Based on all the evidence presented by Socar, I don't necessarily think Super Saiyan Gotenks was stronger than Super Saiyan level 3 Goku, but definately far superior to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta, as well as strong enough to defeat Boo as he was when he fought Goku. That would probably put him pretty close to Super Saiyan 3 Goku's Ki level.

This obviously makes "Super Gotenks" (Super Saiyan level 3 Gotenks) much, much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Heck, Goku was terrified at the prospect of fighting the same Boo that Gotenks nearly killed. And the prospect of Gotenks being stronger isn't absurd, because you have two incredibly strong Saiyan children who could, on their own, compete decently against the adult-Saiyans.

And, of course, this makes Gohan...well, I said earlier I wouldn't get into this, but I guess I just went against that...anyway, I think my point is clear.

[Kaboom]

Sorta. He did fight (and do pretty well) against Kid Buu, who's stronger than Fat Buu, later at just SSj2 for a while before having to ascend.

I'm not sure if you want to use that though, considering it was anime-only.

...That was me...

Well, anime-only as it was, it's still there, and can\should be considered.

Also, I'd like to revive a point of mine that... do we ever really see Goku fight at full-power SSj3? I mean, every time (not counting movies, of course) Goku used the stage, he was either restricted with it, or was holding back for one reason or another.

1) Against Fat Buu - Goku was just literally "playing" with him to buy Trunks time, and using SSj3 in the living realm while dead limited him. But he was obviously much stronger than Buu (he made a punching balloon out of him) and said himself he probably could have killed him.

2) Against Super Buu (w/Gotenks) - Same thing as with Fat Buu. Just buying time for Gohan. (Tho' at this point, nobody but Vegetto could match Buu)

3) Against Kid Buu - Fighting seriously, but still holding back because he thought Vegeta would want a turn. Also, using it while alive in the afterlife screwed up his ki, restricting him. But he says he could have beaten Kid Buu, too.

So I don't see any real way to tell exactly how Ssj3 Goku stacks up against others. I'm betting SSj/2 Gotenks was about the same or close to SSj3 Goku, though, and at SSj3 was clearly stronger. With how cleanly Goku had dominated Fat Buu, though, he did probably reason out that SSj Gotenks could have handled him.

[/rant]

[Duo]

Well, anime-only as it was, it's still there, and can\should be considered.

Also, I'd like to revive a point of mine that... do we ever really see Goku fight at full-power SSj3? I mean, every time (not counting movies, of course) Goku used the stage, he was either restricted with it, or was holding back for one reason or another.

Okay...uh, you think a filler should be considered, but a movie should not? They all fit into the same category.

1) Against Fat Buu - Goku was just literally "playing" with him to buy Trunks time, and using SSj3 in the living realm while dead limited him. But he was obviously much stronger than Buu (he made a punching balloon out of him) and said himself he probably could have killed him.

2) Against Super Buu (w/Gotenks) - Same thing as with Fat Buu. Just buying time for Gohan. (Tho' at this point, nobody but Vegetto could match Buu)

3) Against Kid Buu - Fighting seriously, but still holding back because he thought Vegeta would want a turn. Also, using it while alive in the afterlife screwed up his ki, restricting him. But he says he could have beaten Kid Buu, too.

So I don't see any real way to tell exactly how Ssj3 Goku stacks up against others. I'm betting SSj/2 Gotenks was about the same or close to SSj3 Goku, though, and at SSj3 was clearly stronger. With how cleanly Goku had dominated Fat Buu, though, he did probably reason out that SSj Gotenks could have handled him.

[/rant]

1) Correct.

2) That too, was a filler, however, Goku was not "buying time" he was "fighting for dear life" and getting tossed around like a rag-doll for however long that tiny skirmish was. Goku was nothing to that Boo, and it was obvious even in the filler.

I think that's all I wanted to say.

[Kaboom]

Well, anime-only as it was, it's still there, and can\should be considered.

Also, I'd like to revive a point of mine that... do we ever really see Goku fight at full-power SSj3? I mean, every time (not counting movies, of course) Goku used the stage, he was either restricted with it, or was holding back for one reason or another.

Okay...uh, you think a filler should be considered, but a movie should not? They all fit into the same category.

...

<_<

>_>

Shhh...

Well, at least filler (usually) fits in with what's happening...

[goku 333]

I like skreaming Piccolo

[VegettoEX]

I like skreaming Piccolo

This is absolutely irrelevant, and posts like such will not be tolerated. If you don't have anything to say, don't say it. Please re-read the forum rules.

The same goes for a bunch of the rest of you.

[veshira]

Many people don't understand that Buu doesn't always become stronger when he changes form.

Here's my take on it:

Kid Buu = Original Majin Buu
Ultimate Buu = Original Buu + South Kaioshin
Good Buu (the weakest) = Original Buu + South Kaioshin + Daikaioshin (Daikaioshin used his powers to suppress Buu's power, because Buu had been using his powers to destroy. After the fusion, this suppression cannot be reversed.)
Evil (grey) Buu = Good Buu's anger which he could not suppress; escaping evils (It's my belief that Evil Buu had to absorb Good Buu, because Evil Buu wasn't a "real" Majin Buu, but more like Good Buu fighting his "demons" outside of his body and loosing.)
Super Buu (Original) = Evil Buu + Good Buu; Good Buu is consumed by anger and his "demons."
Super Buu (Change #1) = Super Buu + Piccolo + Gotenks
Super Buu (Change #2) = Super Buu + Piccolo + Trunks + Goten
Super Buu (Change #3) = Super Buu + Piccolo + Trunks + Goten+ Gohan
Super Buu (after absorbing Vegetto; doesn't change) = Super Buu + Piccolo + Trunks + Goten + Gohan (+ Goku + Vegeta)

Super Buu (Original) = Super Buu #3 - Piccolo - Gohan - Trunks - Goten
(When Evil Buu absorbed Good Buu (the original Buu), he took over and became a "real Majin Buu." Good Buu is still the original Majin Buu (+ Daikaioshin + South Kaioshin).)
Kid Buu = Super Buu (Original) - Good Buu
OR
Original Majin Buu (#2) = Super Buu (Original) - (Buu (#1) + South Kaioshin + Daikaioshin)
BUT
Kid Buu (limited) = Original Buu (#2) (+ Good Buu still inside him)
AND
Kid Buu (Full Power) = Original Buu (#2) - Good Buu (spits him out)
Uub = Kid Buu (Original Majin Buu (#2)) + Reincarnation

So, who's strongest? Well, we know the following:

Kid Buu > South Kaioshin > East Kaioshin OR West Kaioshin OR North Kaioshin
Ultimate Buu > Daikaioshin > East Kaioshin

However, we don't know how strong the Kaioshin were compared to the Z-senshi. But for the sake of the arguement, let's just assume the following formulas:

SSJ2 Gohan < Dabura
Daikaioshin > Dabura > East Kaioshin
Daikaoishin > South Kaioshin > SSJ2 Gohan
Dabura seemed to merely be playing with Gohan when they were fighting, though Gohan was serious but not used to battling and thus may have had equal power, but not have been as sharp as Dabura. Also, East Kaioshin knew how much power Gohan had, and if he had more than South Kaioshin, East Kaioshin would not have been able to help Spopovich and Yamu (?) hold him down. Besides, he would have been even more impressed with Gohan, whose level of power he was going by 7 years ago anyway.

Gotenks [base] = Goten^2 [base]
OR
Gotenks [base] = Trunks [base] - The difference between Trunks' and Goten's powers [base] + Goten [base]

Vegetto [base] = Goku [base] + Vegeta [base]

"Ultimate" Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Piccolo

(Not canon?)
SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks + Piccolo [inside Buu]
SSJ2 Goku > "Ultimate" Gohan [inside Buu]

And now, we're winding down to the end. Please keep in mind:
Super Buu (Original) = Good Buu
Super Buu (Original) and Good Buu are the SAME PERSON, because Buu doesn't absorb anyone new. Really, it's Good Buu's anger and "demons" taking over. Eventually the two split, similar to Piccolo Daimaoh and Kami-sama.

So, here we go:
Goten [base] < Trunks [base] < Piccolo < South Kaioshin < SSJ2 Gohan < Daikaioshin < SSJ2 Vegeta < SSJ2 Goku < Good Buu < SSJ3 Goku
Buu's Good side < Buu's Evil side
Good Buu = Super Buu
Super Buu < SSJ3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < SSJ3 Goku

Piccolo < SSJ3 Gotenks < SSJ2 Vegeta < Ultimate Gohan < SSJ2 Goku < SSJ3 Goku

Good Buu = Super Buu < Super Buu #2 < Super Buu #1 < Super Buu #3 < Kid Buu < Ultimate Buu

Goten [base] < Trunks [base] < Piccolo < South Kaioshin < SSJ2 Gohan < Daikaioshin < Majin Vegeta < Good Buu = Super Buu < SSJ3 Gotenks < Super Buu #2 < SSJ2 Goku < Ultimate Gohan < SSJ3 Goku < Super Buu #1 < Super Buu #3 < Kid Buu < Ultimate Buu < Vegetto < SSJ? Vegetto

Kid Buu = Uub Full Power (after 5 yrs training w/ Goku)
Uub Full Power > GT Goku [base]
Uub Full Power < GT Goku SSJ and up
Majin Uub = Uub Full Power + Good Buu
Majin Uub < SSJ4 Goku

Good Buu doesn't suppress Uub's power, because Uub uses his power for good, not evil. Thus, "Majin" Uub is probably stronger than Ultimate Buu, but not as strong as SSJ4 Goku, or Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta for that matter.

List of Strong Guys from strongest to weakest:
SSJ4 Goku
Majin Uub
Ultimate Buu
SSJ Goku GT
Uub Full Power = Kid Buu = Original Buu
Super Buu #3
Super Buu #1
SSJ3 Goku
Ultimate Gohan > SSJ2 Goku
Super Buu #2
SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu (Original) = Good Buu
Majin Vegeta
Daikaioshin
SSJ2 Gohan
South Kaioshin
Piccolo
Trunks [base]
Goten [base]

(Note: Vegetto, SSJ? Vegetto, and East Kaioshin are not shown.)

Buu's Forms and Uub's Forms from strongest to weakest:
Majin Uub
Ultimate Buu
Uub Full Power = Kid Buu = Original Majin Buu
Super Buu Change #3 (Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Goten)
Super Buu Change #1 (Gotenks, Piccolo)
Super Buu Change #2 (Piccolo, Trunks, Goten)
Super Buu Original = Good Buu
(Good Buu's Evil Side > Good Buu's Good Side)
____________________

I know I made a couple of mistakes. I'll look over later, after my brain rests.

[Kaboom]

Wow. Now that's thorough.

Quite honestly, I think this is being taken far too logistically and seriously. It's reasons like this that Toriyama-sensei stopped using PL Numbers...

[Metrite]

However, we don't know how strong the Kaioshin were compared to the Z-senshi.

Yes, we do. Kaioshin was amazed by the "unbelievable" strength of Gohan(who wasn't even much compared to ssj2 Goku/Vegeta), so much that he was sure he could succeed where no Kaioshin ever had(pulling the Z sword). That shows Gohan was far stronger than any Kaioshin. Kaioshin had never met anybody with such strength(and it was apparently ssj1 Gohan that pulled sword, so the Kaioshins were even weaker than than that, and obviously nothing at all compared to Buu(So you can't help but wonder, why do some think South Kaioshin could've made Kid Buu countless times stronger? lol He'd increase Buu's strength by a teeny tiny bit at most, if at all.)).

And you may want to get rid of all the math signs there. I think it's prefered that you do not make crazy algebraic character comparisons.

Actually, as soon as he got back from the Fat Buu fight, he DID tell Piccolo that the prospect of fighting someone stronger than Goku made Buu happy.
I would actually give more credit to it than just a guess. If Goku hadn't been sure about Gotenks' power, I highly doubt he would have left the Earth in his hands. I mean, Goku later said that he could've beaten Fat Buu if he had wanted to, and considering that it was his and Vegeta's fight that released Fat Buu in the first place, he must've felt somewhat responsible. So, despite the fact that he was estimating, he must have been pretty damn sure it was going to be more than enough. As I said before, Goku most likely attributed the fusion he had already witnessed in the afterlife to Trunks and Goten's SSJ power, and realized that it was going to be far more than enough. And remember, Goku DID tell Piccolo that a fighter stronger than himself would show up. I don't really think he would've just made a remark about that if he hadn't meant it. I mean, if he hadn't really been all that sure, why wouldn't he have just said "someone strong enough to beat Fat Buu"? I don't think he would've gotten that specific saying it would be stronger than himself if he wasn't pretty dang sure.

And that all goes together to show how Goku was clearly exaggerating in order to help convince Piccolo that fusion is the option they should just go with. Since he never did tell Buu that, that's clearly one other thing he just said to keep their hopes up, too. He told Piccolo the opposite of what was true, that he didn't think he could beat Buu but fusion probably could. The truth was he could but fusion was quite a gamble as Goku said himself(it's quite clear he didn't think, "Yep! I'm absolutely positively sure a fighter way, way stronger than Buu who Buu doesn't stand any chance at all against will show up for sure!" ) He must've just not wanted to risk being too honest and going, "I could've beaten Buu if I wanted, but I think they should use fusion, even though I can't guarantee it'll be enough." And get a, "...Get your ass back down there!"