How would you think an Earthling could have a power level of...

[nickzambuto]

When you take the anime filler and movies into account, the humans do have a number of respectable feats that paint them as continuing the trend of everyone surpassing the previous arc's villain. Combined with what little information the manga and Daizenshuu give us, I would definitely say the gap between the humans and base Goku isn't any bigger than it was at the 23ed Budokai, and might even be smaller, like how it was at the 22nd Budokai.

Let's make a timeline:

Saiyans arc - Through training, everyone has greatly surpassed their limits and the villain of the previous arc, although they are still nothing to 18,000 Vegeta.

Namek arc - Krillin receives the massive Guru powerup, his last recorded battle power was 75,000, possibly still rising, while Ten and Yamcha train with Kaio until they reach the point where they can easily handle the Ginyu Special Forces who have battle powers somewhere between 30,000 and 60,000, meaning they've all once again surpassed the villain of the previous arc. Granted, Ten and Yamcha didn't beat the Ginyu Force easily enough for them to be quite on the level of 75,000 Krillin during the Freeza fight, but they also weren't completely left in the dust by him, and since Yamcha continued training with Kaio for another seven months and Ten even longer than that, they're all probably back to around the same level when they get revived. I feel like the proportions would logically be similar to how they were at the 22nd Budokai. Don't underestimate the Kaio training, look at the progress Ten and Yamcha made in only one month, going from above Raditz, to above Recoome. If they did that another seven times, then even if their gains became lesser as they got stronger, coupled with the three of them training together after being revived and keeping pace with one another, it's perfectly logical that they could be in the low millions by the time Trunks shows up. I like it this way because the proportions between them and Goku remain similar to how they've always been, as Goku was 3 million when fighting Freeza and stronger when he arrived on Earth. If the humans all have power levels above the 1 million mark, then Goku can probably have entertaining but non-serious fights with them in a similar fashion to his 22nd tournament fight against Krillin and 23ed tournament fight with Ten, and doesn't that seem more appropriate then neglecting the poor humans to complete failure despite all their training? At the very least, Yamcha was able to survive 300x gravity, confirming he has become much stronger than the Goku who Captain Ginyu fearded. Putting them at over 1 million and closer to Goku also helps rationalize what comes later.

Androids arc - Everyone trains for three years. Look at the gains Yamcha, Krillin and Ten have made during these timeskips in the past, there's no reason to believe they wouldn't do the same again. Even in the manga, Dr. Gero reads Yamch's power and mistakes him for Goku. Gero had witnessed Goku fight against Vegeta, so at the very least I believe this confirms that Yamcha had definitely surpassed Saiyans arc Vegeta even without the Ginyu Force filler. However going with the anime canon, Krillin was able to go so far as to knock the wind out of Imperfect Cell, when he charged him with everything he had into a headbutt. He didn't actually hurt Cell, just made him lose breath with a full power tackle. If Cell was around Super Saiyan level by that point, then I can buy this, but only if Krillin was near base Saiyan level. Ten goes on to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell with the Kikoho, and as powerful as that attack is, I refuse to believe it's a ridiculous 100,000x multiplier as some users suggest. It would be so much easier if we just assume that Ten is also at base Saiyan level. This is compounded by the Bojack movie where Ten fights Trunks, and Trunks doesn't win until he goes Super Saiyan. That is three pieces of evidence pointing towards the humans being on par with base Saiyans, four pieces if we assume Dr. Gero actually knew how strong base Goku would be when he mistook him for Yamcha, and zero pieces indicating anything otherwise.

Boo arc - The infamous Yamcha vs Olibu fight, Krillin surviving Pure Boo, and Ten being able to deflect a blast from Bootenks. Could the humans have actually surpassed the base Saiyans? Sure, why not. Seven years ago they were able to survive against Cell Jrs, granted the Jrs weren't trying to kill them, but seven years is also a long time for training. Yamcha said he gave up training, but who knows. He could have given it up the day prior. That statement doesn't mean he stopped training right after the Cell Games.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Snip.

A lot of feats you list here are anime filler as you yourself acknowledge, and are therefore mostly meaningless. The anime has extremely bizarre powerscaling so if you follow its logic SSJ3 Goku would be stronger than Super Vegetto and Kid Buu > Ultimate Buu.

Plus it has a lot of weird shit happen like characters forgetting they can fly.

[Desassina]

The humans could go through the RoSaT, because everytime they trained like Goku, they came out stronger by starting that way. They also had the benefit of doing it together, because their jump from the tournament and beginning of Z to Saiyan saga levels was huge. Using a few made up numbers for differences in battle power that should be simple...

[spoiler]Goku:
- 200 in Tenshinhan's tournament
- 256 in his battle against Piccolo Daimao
- 400 in the tournament against Piccolo Jr.
- 8'000 in his battle against the Saiyans.

Tenshinhan:
- 180 in his first tournament
- 288 in the following one
- 360 in the beginning of Z
- 1'800 in the Saiyans' battle

Krillin:
- 160 in Tenshinhan's tournament
- 256 in Piccolo Jr. tournament
- 320 in the beginning of Z
- 1'600 in the Saiyans' battle

Yamcha:
- 144 in Tenshinhan's tournament
- 225 in Piccolo Jr. tournament
- 288 in the beginning of Z
- 1'440 in the Saiyans' battle[/spoiler]

Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha (and Chiaotzu, whom I have not included) got 5 times stronger with Kami's training compared to Goku's increase by around 1.6, for example. I went with small increases of 1.25 and 1.28, which make 1.6 before 2. Then, by taking Kaio-sama's training, he increased his power by 20 fold, so imagine the gains by the others on the same planet.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The humans could go through the RoSaT, because everytime they trained like Goku, they came out stronger by starting that way. They also had the benefit of doing it together, because their jump from the tournament and beginning of Z to Saiyan saga levels was huge. Using a few made up numbers for differences in battle power that should be simple...

[spoiler]Goku:
- 200 in Tenshinhan's tournament
- 256 in his battle against Piccolo Daimao
- 400 in the tournament against Piccolo Jr.
- 8'000 in his battle against the Saiyans.

Tenshinhan:
- 180 in his first tournament
- 288 in the following one
- 360 in the beginning of Z
- 1'800 in the Saiyans' battle

Krillin:
- 160 in Tenshinhan's tournament
- 256 in Piccolo Jr. tournament
- 320 in the beginning of Z
- 1'600 in the Saiyans' battle

Yamcha:
- 144 in Tenshinhan's tournament
- 225 in Piccolo Jr. tournament
- 288 in the beginning of Z
- 1'440 in the Saiyans' battle[/spoiler]

Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha (and Chiaotzu, whom I have not included) got 5 times stronger with Kami's training compared to Goku's increase by around 1.6, for example. I went with small increases of 1.25 and 1.28, which make 1.6 before 2. Then, by taking Kaio-sama's training, he increased his power by 20 fold, so imagine the gains by the others on the same planet.

Goku was also learning things like self control and discipline on Kami's lookout, though, whereas the humans were simply pushing themselves to the max.

[Desassina]

Goku was also learning things like self control and discipline on Kami's lookout, though, whereas the humans were simply pushing themselves to the max.

Well, you could say that he also learned self control through the Kaioken and Genki-dama, while the others were only pushing themselves togehter. I think that the keyword is together, because it proved to be quite useful with Gohan and Goku in the RoSaT.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku was also learning things like self control and discipline on Kami's lookout, though, whereas the humans were simply pushing themselves to the max.

Well, you could say that he also learned self control through the Kaioken and Genki-dama, while the others were only pushing themselves togehter. I think that the keyword is together, because it proved to be quite useful with Gohan and Goku in the RoSaT.

No, as in literal self control, not ki control. Before that he was casually killing people left and right and lacked even the most basic social skill, but after his stay at the lookout he became considerably more compassionate and normal. Well, normal as Goku can be, anyway.

[Blackstripe]

372,040,000 in their base form?

372 million? Sure. But that last 40,000? Man, I don't know if they can bridge that gap.

[nickzambuto]

Snip.

A lot of feats you list here are anime filler as you yourself acknowledge, and are therefore mostly meaningless. The anime has extremely bizarre powerscaling so if you follow its logic SSJ3 Goku would be stronger than Super Vegetto and Kid Buu > Ultimate Buu.

Plus it has a lot of weird shit happen like characters forgetting they can fly.

It's not meaningless if the anime is what we're talking about. As far as that specific canon goes, the humans are extremely powerful. It's meaningless in the context of the manga canon, if that was specified as the exclusive discussion, but that's why I prefaced my post with "If you take the anime filler and movies into account."

[Desassina]

The idea that Goku's training did not make him much stronger because he had to learn self control must be questioned at all times. Kami could just drop him if he felt that progress was not going to be made, because he was still stronger, kinda like Hiko Seijuro when he trained Kenshin and realized that he was going for the ultimate attack with the mindset of a killer. Since Kenshin dropped that, he learned the Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki, when his man slayer self would not. I guess that Goku would not be as strong if he hadn't learned that discipline too. It's all over the media, and dare I say real life as well. Try going for a doctorate with a mindset like yours.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The idea that Goku's training did not make him much stronger because he had to learn self control must be questioned at all times. Kami could just drop him if he felt that progress was not going to be made, because he was still stronger, kinda like Hiko Seijuro when he trained Kenshin and realized that he was going for the ultimate attack with the mindset of a killer. Since Kenshin dropped that, he learned the Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki, when his man slayer self would not. I guess that Goku would not be as strong if he hadn't learned that discipline too. It's all over the media, and dare I say real life as well. Try going for a doctorate with a mindset like yours.

Goku would be way stronger if he only focused on training, he was boosting his power like nothing else in short periods of time with his earlier training, yet with Kami his power did not rise nearly as fast.

[Captain Strawberry]

By being a mutant like Frieza or by training a lot with good potential?

[Desassina]

Goku would be way stronger if he only focused on training, he was boosting his power like nothing else in short periods of time with his earlier training, yet with Kami his power did not rise nearly as fast.

So I guess that chopping wood in the mountains would make him stronger than his training with other people would.

[Kaboom]

By being Oob.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku would be way stronger if he only focused on training, he was boosting his power like nothing else in short periods of time with his earlier training, yet with Kami his power did not rise nearly as fast.

So I guess that chopping wood in the mountains would make him stronger than his training with other people would.

This may seem a bit out of the blue, but are you a power level person?

[Desassina]

I don't get the tone of the question in the context of this discussion. You're on a hate and contradicting roll even since you got here, and I suggest taking on a different approach, or else I will have to ignore you, as people would if they got this offended. Having contributed to small pieces of power level discussion is fine, and I have one power level list, which I enjoyed for the time being. It won't stop me from getting the flow of events in the series, and I have recommended people to use symbolic amounts, so as long as these don't replace the story.

[FoolsGil]

Not even Goku had a base power in the hundreds of millions until Battle of Gods. Not until training with Whis could an Earthling even match that level of power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't get the tone of the question in the context of this discussion. You're on a hate and contradicting roll even since you got here, and I suggest taking on a different approach, or else I will have to ignore you, as people would if they got this offended. Having contributed to small pieces of power level discussion is fine, and I have one power level list, which I enjoyed for the time being. It won't stop me from getting the flow of events in the series, and I have recommended people to use symbolic amounts, so as long as these don't replace the story.

I'm just asking if you enjoy creating power level lists and/or powerscaling.

[Desassina]

Sorry dude, I don't quite like you, but given the honest question, my reply is simply: yes, I do. However, I compromise some facts for consistency, because we can't please everyone. When the idea is to come up with numbers with less effort, I use models, and then ask people to tinker with them.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Sorry dude, I don't quite like you, but given the honest question, my reply is simply: yes, I do. However, I compromise some facts for consistency, because we can't please everyone. When the idea is to come up with numbers with less effort, I use models, and then ask people to tinker with them.

It seems to me that you're reading a lot of malice into my posts that just isn't there. Anyway, I'd appreciate if you PM'd me a list of your PLs from the Future Trunks saga to the end of Z.

[Desassina]

Give me one hour or two and I'll send them. I would have to write the rules first, and that takes time.