How strong are Trunks and Goten?

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How strong are Trunks and Goten?

Post by James R. Cadwell » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:36 pm

Super Saiya-jin Trunks and Goten are obviously weaker than all forms of Cell, since they were unable to knock "artificial human" 18 out of the Tenkaichi Budokai ring immediately after transforming. I think it's safe to say that Cell would have been capable of doing that easily by the time he arrived to absorb 17.

That being said, is it ever specifically stated just how strong Trunks and Goten are compared to the other characters?

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Post by Zackarotto » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:45 pm

I don't believe it is said... I would like to raise the point that they probably weren't fighting to the best of their abilities under that costume, though...

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Post by James R. Cadwell » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:08 pm

Zackarotto wrote:I don't believe it is said... I would like to raise the point that they probably weren't fighting to the best of their abilities under that costume, though...
True, but I think that two "Imperfect" Cells wearing a Halloween costume wouldn't have a problem knocking "artificial human" 18 into the ground with a light punch.

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Post by Jerseymilk » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:18 pm

Yes, but they wouldn't also be trying to stand one on top of the other and synchronize their movements. 8)
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Post by James R. Cadwell » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:36 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Yes, but they wouldn't also be trying to stand one on top of the other and synchronize their movements. 8)
It's not like wearing a costume reduces your physical strength by an entire order of magnitude. If Trunks and Goten couldn't send #18 flying with a punch while they had the costume on, they probably aren't significantly stronger than her without one.

Two "Imperfect" Cells trying to beat "artificial human" 18 while wearing the same costume and attempting to synchronize their movements would be like two adult men wearing a horse costume versus a toddler.

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Post by Zackarotto » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:58 pm

Hey, that's a pretty good comparison.

...

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Post by PsyLiam » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:58 am

I'm not overly familiar with the Buu saga, but was there any indication as to how strong Goten and Trunks were compared to, say, Piccolo? Or Kuririn?

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Post by TripleRach » Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:42 pm

Kuririn was visibly and verbally quite relieved to not have to face Trunks or Goten in the Adults Division, which probably accounts for something (considering how arrogant he was about most of the rest of the competitors).

Piccolo was shown to be stronger than either Trunks or Goten when he became the dominant one in Buu after Gotenks split.

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Post by Dai » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:19 pm

Keep in mind that 18 had been training in that seven year gap. I'm sure it would make even a slight bit of difference.

What baffles me... Goten and Trunks obviously weren't the strongest characters around, but why was Gotenks so unbelievably powerfull? I mean, they literally bested all of the Z Warriors (With the exception of Goku and Gohan) simply by fusing! Using that reasoning, their power would have to increase with at least a thousand fold. Which is insane.

Though credible, if you look at Gogeta's power... Which would make fusion some sort of super technique.

Err... what were we talking about again?

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Post by James R. Cadwell » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:59 pm

Dai wrote:Keep in mind that 18 had been training in that seven year gap. I'm sure it would make even a slight bit of difference.
Yeah, but #18 gets her strength from cybernetic enhancements, not "ki", raw muscle, or anything else that could conceivably be improved by training. I'd always assumed that #18 could only get weaker over time due to the deterioration of her artificial components -- which also could explain why the "artificial humans" were weaker in the alternate future -- they were just older. But I digress....
Dai wrote:What baffles me... Goten and Trunks obviously weren't the strongest characters around, but why was Gotenks so unbelievably powerfull? I mean, they literally bested all of the Z Warriors (With the exception of Goku and Gohan) simply by fusing! Using that reasoning, their power would have to increase with at least a thousand fold. Which is insane.

Though credible, if you look at Gogeta's power... Which would make fusion some sort of super technique.

Err... what were we talking about again?
Fusion always appeared to be a magical technique to me; very different from simply manipulating your "ki" like the "Kamehameha". With that in mind, I think it makes sense that the fusion technique might have multiplied the combined power of Trunks and Goten by a huge factor -- after all, we've seen magic used to increase power before. (Whether it's actually adding more power or just releasing some of Trunks and Goten's own potential is probably still debatable.)

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Post by PsyLiam » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:43 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote: Yeah, but #18 gets her strength from cybernetic enhancements, not "ki", raw muscle, or anything else that could conceivably be improved by training. I'd always assumed that #18 could only get weaker over time due to the deterioration of her artificial components -- which also could explain why the "artificial humans" were weaker in the alternate future -- they were just older. But I digress....
Maybe the cybernetic components multiplied the person's own natural ki. #18 might have a natural fighting power of, say, 10, but the mechanical enhancements multiplied that by 10,000. So if she trained to have a natural power level of 20, then she'd actually end up with 20,000.

Although considering how much people's power levels went up back in the days when they were said (everyone's increased from around the 200 mark to the 1000 mark in a year while waiting for Vegeta and Nappa), that means that her power increase would be exponentially huge compared to everyone else's. So maybe not.
James R. Cadwell wrote:With that in mind, I think it makes sense that the fusion technique might have multiplied the combined power of Trunks and Goten by a huge factor -- after all, we've seen magic used to increase power before. (Whether it's actually adding more power or just releasing some of Trunks and Goten's own potential is probably still debatable.)
Didn't we do some maths on this a while back, and work out that if fusion did multiply two people's fighting power (instead of just combining them), then it could case the absurdly high power increase it seems to?

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Post by James R. Cadwell » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:57 pm

PsyLiam wrote:Didn't we do some maths on this a while back, and work out that if fusion did multiply two people's fighting power (instead of just combining them), then it could case the absurdly high power increase it seems to?
I think it's more likely to be a fixed multiplication of the combined power of the two fighters more than a multiplication of one "battle power" by the other. After all, the numbers a scouter reading shows are just representations of how much energy a person is producing/emitting/whatever -- it doesn't make any sense that multiplying two "battle power readings" would provide an accurate power level for a fused fighter. The numbers are arbitrary. You could just as easily multiply those kili units (or whatever they were called) from the Buu Saga but wind up with a completely result.

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Post by PsyLiam » Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:47 pm

True. And I do hate several things about the idea of "power levels" in general.

But a general "multiplication" of two people's powers would result in a much stronger fused fighter than if they merely added them together. In fact, if the power's were just combined, then the whole reason for fusing would be pointless. Trunks and Goten could have just fought Buu together but seperatly, like Piccolo and Raditz did way back before they decided that all fights should involve people lining up to battle in single-file.

Anyway, you're saying that Gotenks power would be "Trunks + Goten x 50" (with the 50 number being any potential number), rather than Gotenk's power being "Trunks x Goten"?

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Post by James R. Cadwell » Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:00 pm

PsyLiam wrote:Anyway, you're saying that Gotenks power would be "Trunks + Goten x 50" (with the 50 number being any potential number), rather than Gotenk's power being "Trunks x Goten"?
Exactly. I think that's the only fusion theory that actually makes sense. (it's also pretty much the generally accepted one that I've seen in the DB fan community.)

It can't be a simple combination of the power of the two fighters, and it can't be a multiplication of the two power levels, since "battle power" is an arbitrary scale that Freeza's technicians must have decided upon. (not to mention the fact that it's clearly some type of exponential scale rather than being linear.)

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Post by PsyLiam » Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:09 pm

True. Why did I never realise that? It's the only way that two power levels of 200-odd could beat someone with a power-level of 1000. Silly me.

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Post by Sun_Wukong » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:12 am

I always thought that normal Gotenks was roughly as strong as Piccolo. So I'm guessing that SSJ Gotenks couldve easily taken on #18. Now Goten and Trunks seperate, thats a different story.

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Post by Xyex » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:24 am

I've always thought they were about as strong as Goku when he first went SSJ. I don't know why I think that way but I do...
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Post by B-kun » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:34 pm

Xyex wrote:I've always thought they were about as strong as Goku when he first went SSJ. I don't know why I think that way but I do...
Well, not really sure they count, but they're atleast somewhat powerful. When they're adults and more or less stop training, they manage to kill some enemies with one blast when they escape from Hell and kill #19 with a combined Ki blast. So I guess that says something.
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Post by James R. Cadwell » Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:20 pm

Xyex wrote:I've always thought they were about as strong as Goku when he first went SSJ. I don't know why I think that way but I do...
When Goku first became a Super Saiya-jin, he was only marginally stronger than Freeza. "Future" Trunks was powerful enough to kill Freeza with a single attack, and even he wasn't strong enough to match blows with #18.

Personally, I'd say that Trunks and Goten are roughly as powerful as Vegeta was when he fought #18. Otherwise #18 wouldn't have had any difficulty with them at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Of course, #18 could have been holding back a significant amount of her power because she didn't initially realize that she was fighting two Super Saiya-jin, so maybe you're right and Trunks and Goten really were that weak.

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Post by Xyex » Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:45 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote:
Xyex wrote:I've always thought they were about as strong as Goku when he first went SSJ. I don't know why I think that way but I do...
When Goku first became a Super Saiya-jin, he was only marginally stronger than Freeza. "Future" Trunks was powerful enough to kill Freeza with a single attack, and even he wasn't strong enough to match blows with #18.

Personally, I'd say that Trunks and Goten are roughly as powerful as Vegeta was when he fought #18. Otherwise #18 wouldn't have had any difficulty with them at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Of course, #18 could have been holding back a significant amount of her power because she didn't initially realize that she was fighting two Super Saiya-jin, so maybe you're right and Trunks and Goten really were that weak.
That is one of the reasons. Up until she realized it was them she thought it was just a Human with more power than the average. Then, after they transformed, and she formulated her plan to "expose" them she dealt with them rather easily.
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