Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

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Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Speedster » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:49 pm

Fans laugh at Pui Pui, as they consider that 10x gravity is a Saiyan-arc-level feat. However in the light of nerfed feats in the Buu arc (see base Gohan being at least 7x slower than Saiyan arc Goku, SSJ1 Vegeta doing just 1.5x the gravity training that Goku did in the Namek arc, and Goku struggling with 40tons while he could push over 700tonnes as a kid at the start of DB) should we also re-consider our approach about Pui Pui?

I mean when seeing it in the broader context of nerfed feats in the Buu arc it actually makes a lot of sense for Pui Pui to be 10x gravity level and not be a weakling. 10x gravity would put him at 1/15 of SSJ1 Vegeta's level and given that Goku against Yakkon went from around 800 in base to 3000 as a SSJ1, a 3.75x mutliplier, you could say something like this:
Pui Pui =1
Base Vegeta=4
SSJ1 Vegeta=3.75x4=15
By power scaling this could place Pui Pui at the level of SSJ1 Goku in the Freeza arc and Yakkon just below Semi Perfect Cell. Which also fits well with Vegeta thinking he could take on everyone in the 25th TB (including #18 and Piccolo) in his base form.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by nickzambuto » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:55 am

The whole first half of the Boo arc focused on how the saiyans have become freakishly and unnaturally strong. Dabura was directly compared to Cell and fought against Gohan, and Pui Pui's 10x gravity schtick comes from the Saiyans arc, and he fought Vegeta. So I like to go with the interpretation that all of Babidi's minions represented a power tier from the past, Pui Pui being Saiyans arc Vegeta, Yakon being Freeza, and Dabura being Cell, and they all fought their respective rivals in order for the three saiyans to showcase how far all three of the saiyans have come and their current status. Vegeta humiliated his former self, Goku destroyed Freeza with Super Saiyan light, and Gohan had regressed and looked foolish against an enemy he should have handled easily as a result. It's a clever and nostalgic way of setting the scene for the introduction of the newest and ultimate villain; Majin Boo.

All of this means that Pui Pui is as strong as Vegeta was during the saiyans arc. If you want, you can think of him as Oozaru Vegeta rather than base, but I don't think he should be any higher.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:04 pm

nickzambuto wrote:The whole first half of the Boo arc focused on how the saiyans have become freakishly and unnaturally strong. Dabura was directly compared to Cell and fought against Gohan, and Pui Pui's 10x gravity schtick comes from the Saiyans arc, and he fought Vegeta. So I like to go with the interpretation that all of Babidi's minions represented a power tier from the past, Pui Pui being Saiyans arc Vegeta, Yakon being Freeza, and Dabura being Cell, and they all fought their respective rivals in order for the three saiyans to showcase how far all three of the saiyans have come and their current status. Vegeta humiliated his former self, Goku destroyed Freeza with Super Saiyan light, and Gohan had regressed and looked foolish against an enemy he should have handled easily as a result. It's a clever and nostalgic way of setting the scene for the introduction of the newest and ultimate villain; Majin Boo.

All of this means that Pui Pui is as strong as Vegeta was during the saiyans arc. If you want, you can think of him as Oozaru Vegeta rather than base, but I don't think he should be any higher.

Also kilis were brought up in the Yakon fight just like how power levels were brought up in the Namek arc a lot. That is probably just a coincidence though.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:09 pm

[quote="Speedster"]
By power scaling this could place Pui Pui at the level of SSJ1 Goku in the Freeza arc and Yakkon just below Semi Perfect Cell. Which also fits well with Vegeta thinking he could take on everyone in the 25th TB (including #18 and Piccolo) in his base form.

base saiyans were confirmed weaker than Frieza in BoG. I would take Vegeta's line of him just being Vegeta. I can see an argument for him passing 18, but not Piccolo. Piccolo never stops training and when he came out of the ROSAT Trunks was amazed at how strong he was. Piccolo wasn't that far behind cell games ssj Vegeta and Trunks. Considering Piccolo kept training after that I don't see how base Vegeta could ever pass him.

As for Pui Pui at best I would put him around Zarbon tier, and that's being generous.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Speedster » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:18 pm

nickzambuto wrote:Pui Pui's 10x gravity schtick comes from the Saiyans arc, and he fought Vegeta. [...] All of this means that Pui Pui is as strong as Vegeta was during the saiyans arc. If you want, you can think of him as Oozaru Vegeta rather than base, but I don't think he should be any higher.
dragon boss z wrote:As for Pui Pui at best I would put him around Zarbon tier, and that's being generous.
As I said if you are going by absolute feats then you quickly run into problems. If Pui Pui is Saiyan arc level because of the 10x gravity then so is base Gohan in the Buu arc as he could only fly 1000km in 20mins whereas in 20mins base Goku in the Saiyan arc could fly over 7000km. Similarly since base Goku in the Buu arc who could only lift 40tons he is weaker than post-Roshi traning kid Goku who could boulders weighting over 700tonnes.

Also an argument to justify why Pui Pui thought that 10x gravity would offer him an advantage is maybe because gravity is not just like weight training. Your internal organs are pulled down too. Also your blood is heavier and your heart needs to pump it harder. Pui Pui maybe was considering that his opponent would be at a disadvantage because of this as you would normally need time to adapt to these conditions if they are new to you.
dragon boss z wrote:base saiyans were confirmed weaker than Frieza in BoG.
1. If you are going by the BoGs movie it can be argued that base Goku was suppressed when Beerus made that statement.
2. If you go by Dragonball Super, I can argue that base Goku was relegated below Freeza in the same way that Piccolo (who was definitely stronger than Namek arc 100% Freeza) was relegated below Ginyu force level. Same applies for the movie too. Not to mention the 1.3million line.
dragon boss z wrote:I would take Vegeta's line of him just being Vegeta.I can see an argument for him passing 18, but not Piccolo. Piccolo wasn't that far behind cell games ssj Vegeta and Trunks.
It's not only Vegeta's line.
1. In the manga, base Vegeta distracted Super Perfect Cell enough for SSJ2 Gohan to turn the tables and win. Piccolo instead did nothing. For the record in the anime the whole scene is different.
2. Dabura picked up te 3 strongest fighters for the spaceship. And these were base Goku, base Vegeta and base Gohan. In comparison Piccolo and Kuririn were considered trash only worthy to be spat on and converted into stone.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by nickzambuto » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:46 pm

The difference is that unlike Gohan and Goku, Pui Pui never did anything impressive to prove that his weak feat was an inconsistency. The 10x gravity is literally the only thing we have to go on for his power. And like I said, I enjoy the interpretation that Babidi's fighters all represent a villain of the past, leading up to the reveal of the ultimate threat, Majin Boo.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:05 pm

Speedster wrote:As I said if you are going by absolute feats then you quickly run into problems. If Pui Pui is Saiyan arc level because of the 10x gravity then so is base Gohan in the Buu arc as he could only fly 1000km in 20mins whereas in 20mins base Goku in the Saiyan arc could fly over 7000km. Similarly since base Goku in the Buu arc who could only lift 40tons he is weaker than post-Roshi traning kid Goku who could boulders weighting over 700tonnes.
Saiyan saga Goku was going at full speed though and if I remember correctly he needed a sensu bean after his trip, though I agree that still doesn't make up for it.
If you want to ignore the 10x gravity all together pui pui should still be below Frieza.
If you want to go by guides Yakon's power level was 40 million, so even he was weaker than Frieza.
Also an argument to justify why Pui Pui thought that 10x gravity would offer him an advantage is maybe because gravity is not just like weight training. Your internal organs are pulled down too. Also your blood is heavier and your heart needs to pump it harder. Pui Pui maybe was considering that his opponent would be at a disadvantage because of this as you would normally need time to adapt to these conditions if they are new to you.
I somewhat agree, but I can tell you right now nobody in the universe would think 10x gravity would hinder Frieza.
1. If you are going by the BoGs movie it can be argued that base Goku was suppressed when Beerus made that statement.
2. If you go by Dragonball Super, I can argue that base Goku was relegated below Freeza in the same way that Piccolo (who was definitely stronger than Namek arc 100% Freeza) was relegated below Ginyu force level. Same applies for the movie too. Not to mention the 1.3million line.
I agree Piccolo was nerfed for some reason, but there was really never any solid proof the base saiyans surpassed 100% Frieza. Also you have to take into consideration Frieza wasn't a fighter and didn't train and couldn't maintain his max power for more than a couple minutes. Maybe base Goku could beat 100% Frieza, but Frieza's power level would still of probably been higher.
It's not only Vegeta's line.
1. In the manga, base Vegeta distracted Super Perfect Cell enough for SSJ2 Gohan to turn the tables and win. Piccolo instead did nothing. For the record in the anime the whole scene is different.
2. Dabura picked up te 3 strongest fighters for the spaceship. And these were base Goku, base Vegeta and base Gohan. In comparison Piccolo and Kuririn were considered trash only worthy to be spat on and converted into stone.
base Vegeta's blast only distracted Cell, it doesn't mean anything. That's like saying Piccolo is stronger than kaioken x10 Goku on Namek because he blindsided 50% Frieza.
Z fighters are always suppressed. Dabura had no idea of any of their full powers. Also it was just for plot purposes. Even if base Goku and Vegeta were somehow stronger than Piccolo, base Gohan couldn't be. Instead of getting stronger since the Cell games he got a good deal weaker, and for 8 years Piccolo has been training and during the Cell games he was already post ROSAT ssj Vegeta/Trunks tier. So basically saying base buu saga Gohan is stronger than Piccolo is saying that base Gohan during the Cell games was MUCH stronger than ssj Vegeta during the Cell games, and that makes no sense.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:32 pm

I've seen Puipui estimated as being anywhere from Zarbon/Dodoria strength to several hundred thousand.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:15 am

Speedster wrote:
1. In the manga, base Vegeta distracted Super Perfect Cell enough for SSJ2 Gohan to turn the tables and win. Piccolo instead did nothing. For the record in the anime the whole scene is different.
2. Dabura picked up te 3 strongest fighters for the spaceship. And these were base Goku, base Vegeta and base Gohan. In comparison Piccolo and Kuririn were considered trash only worthy to be spat on and converted into stone.
1) It was a sneak attack, and we've seen multiple times that a sneak attack can throw someone off their guard that they couldn't even scratch in a face to face situation. Piccolo kicking 50% Freeza to give Goku time for the Genki Dama, Ssj Trunks kicking Fat Buu away to save Vegeta, etc. Vegeta wouldn't have to be insanely powerful for his blast to have at least caught Cell's attention.

2) The fact that Dabra then felt certain that the likes of Pui Pui could easily handle Vegeta and the others only shows that his capacity to detect strength is unreliable at best. Because of that, he clearly couldn't have been sensing their strength despite them being suppressed, otherwise he wouldn't have thought Pui Pui more than a match for them. So either he was only sensing the power they were emitting still while otherwise suppressed, or some form of sensing unlike the usual ki sensing, but in either case his analysis can't be very reliable if what he was sensing from them led him to believe that Pui Pui was their superior.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Speedster » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:09 am

dragon boss z wrote:If you want to go by guides Yakon's power level was 40 million, so even he was weaker than Frieza.
Which guide is this? A video game guide?
Darkprince410 wrote:The fact that Dabra then felt certain that the likes of Pui Pui could easily handle Vegeta and the others only shows that his capacity to detect strength is unreliable at best. Because of that, he clearly couldn't have been sensing their strength despite them being suppressed, otherwise he wouldn't have thought Pui Pui more than a match for them.
In the Dragonball Super manga chapter 16 Dabra said that Pui Pui and Yakkon were decoys to lure the fighters in. So apparently he knew that Pui Pui and Yakkon would be unable to pit against the likes of base Goku, base Vegeta and base Gohan but did so as a part of his plan. After all in stage 3 Dabura went down himself and challenged all 4 (the 3 Saiyans + Kaioshin) into a fight against him.
dragon boss z wrote:Z fighters are always suppressed. Dabura had no idea of any of their full powers.
So either he was only sensing the power they were emitting still while otherwise suppressed, or some form of sensing unlike the usual ki sensing, but in either case his analysis can't be very reliable if what he was sensing from them led him to believe that Pui Pui was their superior.
1. There were 5 fighters (6 if you count Kibito but neverrmind) to choose 3 from. There are 10 different ways in doing so -only one of these 10 is choosing neither Piccolo nor Kuririn. If he were such an incompetent judge of strength and his choice was completely clueless and therefore random then choosing neither Piccolo and Kuririn only has 10% probability of happening. That means there is 90% chance of actually knowing what he was doing with regards to how much power each fighter was suppressing. He was also not expecting the Saiyans to turn SSJ so his estimates and comparisons had to exclude those transformations and refer to the base forms only.
2. Why would Piccolo being more suppressed than Goku? It makes no sense to me given than Goku in the tournament preliminaries in chapter 431 was the one who showed the greatest control over suppressing his power by scoring the lowest score in the punch machine. He scored 186 while Kuririn scored 192 and Piccolo 210.
dragon boss z wrote:base Vegeta's blast only distracted Cell, it doesn't mean anything. That's like saying Piccolo is stronger than kaioken x10 Goku on Namek because he blindsided 50% Frieza.
Darkprince410 wrote:It was a sneak attack, and we've seen multiple times that a sneak attack can throw someone off their guard that they couldn't even scratch in a face to face situation. Piccolo kicking 50% Freeza to give Goku time for the Genki Dama, Ssj Trunks kicking Fat Buu away to save Vegeta, etc. Vegeta wouldn't have to be insanely powerful for his blast to have at least caught Cell's attention.
That is not the point I was making. I am not arguing that base Vegeta is close to Super Perfect Cell because he managed to distract him. The point is that it was base Vegeta who successfully sneak-attacked and distracted Cell. Not Piccolo. Apparently Piccolo was not strong enough to even consider that a sneak attack of his would work against Cell. You both mention Piccolo sneak-attacking 50% Freeza but you forget the reason why it was him (and not Kurrin or Gohan) the one who performed the sneak attack. Gohan and Kuririn even gave their energy to Piccolo. Wasn’t it because Piccolo was the strongest fighter of them and had the highest chance of pulling off the sneak attack successfully?
dragon boss z wrote:base Gohan couldn't be. Instead of getting stronger since the Cell games he got a good deal weaker, and for 8 years Piccolo has been training and during the Cell games he was already post ROSAT ssj Vegeta/Trunks tier. So basically saying base buu saga Gohan is stronger than Piccolo is saying that base Gohan during the Cell games was MUCH stronger than ssj Vegeta during the Cell games, and that makes no sense.
1. Why does Gohan need to be much stronger than SSJ Vegeta in the Cell Games? What makes you believe that Piccolo was anywhere near SSJ Vegeta in the Cell games? Cell clearly said that only Vegeta and Trunks would be able to defend themselves against the Cell Jrs. The panel showing from distance Piccolo standing while facing a Cell Jr means nothing. What is to tell us that the Cell Jr wasn’t holding back? Actually we know the Cell Jrs were holding back as Cell initially instructed them to not kill the Z fighters.

2. For all we know pre-RoSaT Piccolo was at the level of #17 and he was fodder against the powered up Imperfect Cell or #16. Then after that you had Semi Perfect Cell who was at least Imperfect Cell + #17 – that is at least more than twice the power of Piccolo. Then there was a big gap between Super Vegeta and Semi Perfect Cell. Then Vegeta went to RoSaT for a second time and go even stronger. Still not as strong as Gohan but that goes to show how strong Gohan had become by the Cell games (and that is before turning SSJ2). Given that in the kili scale SSJ is 3.75 multiplier base Gohan could be 10% weaker than he was in the Cell games and still be above Piccolo even if we assume that Piccolo doubled his power level since his fight against #17. For example:
#17/Piccolo=1
Imperfect Cell/#16=1.35
Piccolo (Buu arc)=2
Semi-Perfect Cell=2.35
Base Gohan (Buu arc)=0.9*(FPSSJ Gohan/3.75)=2.4
SSJ1 Vegeta (post RoSaT)=3
Super Vegeta (post RoSaT)=4
FPSSJ1 Vegeta (post 2nd RoSaT)=6
FPSSJ1 Gohan (Cell Games)=10
Perfect Cell=12

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:10 am

Speedster wrote:Which guide is this? A video game guide?
V-jump.
1. There were 5 fighters (6 if you count Kibito but neverrmind) to choose 3 from. There are 10 different ways in doing so -only one of these 10 is choosing neither Piccolo nor Kuririn. If he were such an incompetent judge of strength and his choice was completely clueless and therefore random then choosing neither Piccolo and Kuririn only has 10% probability of happening. That means there is 90% chance of actually knowing what he was doing with regards to how much power each fighter was suppressing. He was also not expecting the Saiyans to turn SSJ so his estimates and comparisons had to exclude those transformations and refer to the base forms only.
2. Why would Piccolo being more suppressed than Goku? It makes no sense to me given than Goku in the tournament preliminaries in chapter 431 was the one who showed the greatest control over suppressing his power by scoring the lowest score in the punch machine. He scored 186 while Kuririn scored 192 and Piccolo 210.
1. Like I said they were left out due to plot. And if Dabura could sense their latent energy then that means he would be right the saiyans were the strongest.
2. Scoring lower doesn't mean you are suppressed more it just means you hit it less hard. It's a mix of both suppression and how hard you hit it.
That is not the point I was making. I am not arguing that base Vegeta is close to Super Perfect Cell because he managed to distract him. The point is that it was base Vegeta who successfully sneak-attacked and distracted Cell. Not Piccolo. Apparently Piccolo was not strong enough to even consider that a sneak attack of his would work against Cell. You both mention Piccolo sneak-attacking 50% Freeza but you forget the reason why it was him (and not Kurrin or Gohan) the one who performed the sneak attack. Gohan and Kuririn even gave their energy to Piccolo. Wasn’t it because Piccolo was the strongest fighter of them and had the highest chance of pulling off the sneak attack successfully?
Again this is plot. Also Vegeta wanted revenge for Trunks.

[quoteWhy does Gohan need to be much stronger than SSJ Vegeta in the Cell Games?[/quote]

Because it was confirmed ssj Vegeta<<<ssj Goku<=>ssj Gohan...
What makes you believe that Piccolo was anywhere near SSJ Vegeta in the Cell games?

When Piccolo came out of the ROSAT Trunks was extremely impressed by his power. At most ssj Vegeta was a couple times stronger than Piccolo.

Cell clearly said that only Vegeta and Trunks would be able to defend themselves against the Cell Jrs. The panel showing from distance Piccolo standing while facing a Cell Jr means nothing. What is to tell us that the Cell Jr wasn’t holding back? Actually we know the Cell Jrs were holding back as Cell initially instructed them to not kill the Z fighters.
ssj Vegeta and Trunks were definitely stronger than Piccolo. Just not by a crazy amount. A couple times at most, which is actually a good amount, but not near enough for their bases to be even close to him.
Given that in the kili scale SSJ is 3.75 multiplier base Gohan could be 10% weaker than he was in the Cell games and still be above Piccolo even if we assume that Piccolo doubled his power level since his fight against #17.
The kili scale never confirmed ssj was a 3.75 multiplier. Goku's base wasn't even recorded and his ssj recording might not of been him at full power. According to V-Jump 3,000 kilis is a power level of 150 million. As we know from the Namek saga when Goku attacks his power level rises multiple times over when he attacks.
For all we know pre-RoSaT Piccolo was at the level of #17 and he was fodder against the powered up Imperfect Cell or #16. Then after that you had Semi Perfect Cell who was at least Imperfect Cell + #17 – that is at least more than twice the power of Piccolo. Then there was a big gap between Super Vegeta and Semi Perfect Cell. Then Vegeta went to RoSaT for a second time and go even stronger. Still not as strong as Gohan but that goes to show how strong Gohan had become by the Cell games (and that is before turning SSJ2).
these are my estimates in power levels
Frieza: 120 mil
17/18: 225 mil
Piccolo (pre ROSAT): 230 mil
imperfect cell/16: 275 mil
semi perfect cell: 500 mil
Piccolo (post ROSAT): 550 mil
Super Vegeta: 600 mil
ssj Vegeta (post ROSAT): 650 mil
ssj Goku: 1 bil
ssj Gohan: 1 bil
Perfect Cell: 1.2 bil
super perfect Cell: 2 bil
ssj2 Gohan: 2.5 bil

ssj Gohan Buu saga: 500 mil
ssj 2 Gohan Buu saga: 1 bil
Piccolo Buu saga 600 mil
ssj Goku Buu saga: 1.5 bil
ssj 2 Goku: 3 bil

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:44 am

Speedster wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:The fact that Dabra then felt certain that the likes of Pui Pui could easily handle Vegeta and the others only shows that his capacity to detect strength is unreliable at best. Because of that, he clearly couldn't have been sensing their strength despite them being suppressed, otherwise he wouldn't have thought Pui Pui more than a match for them.
In the Dragonball Super manga chapter 16 Dabra said that Pui Pui and Yakkon were decoys to lure the fighters in. So apparently he knew that Pui Pui and Yakkon would be unable to pit against the likes of base Goku, base Vegeta and base Gohan but did so as a part of his plan. After all in stage 3 Dabura went down himself and challenged all 4 (the 3 Saiyans + Kaioshin) into a fight against him.
Darkprince410 wrote:It was a sneak attack, and we've seen multiple times that a sneak attack can throw someone off their guard that they couldn't even scratch in a face to face situation. Piccolo kicking 50% Freeza to give Goku time for the Genki Dama, Ssj Trunks kicking Fat Buu away to save Vegeta, etc. Vegeta wouldn't have to be insanely powerful for his blast to have at least caught Cell's attention.
That is not the point I was making. I am not arguing that base Vegeta is close to Super Perfect Cell because he managed to distract him. The point is that it was base Vegeta who successfully sneak-attacked and distracted Cell. Not Piccolo. Apparently Piccolo was not strong enough to even consider that a sneak attack of his would work against Cell. You both mention Piccolo sneak-attacking 50% Freeza but you forget the reason why it was him (and not Kurrin or Gohan) the one who performed the sneak attack. Gohan and Kuririn even gave their energy to Piccolo. Wasn’t it because Piccolo was the strongest fighter of them and had the highest chance of pulling off the sneak attack successfully?
1) Except that contradicts what's indicated in the Z manga. Dabra was readily shocked by the fact that Vegeta dispatched Pui Pui, and outright stated that Yakon would be more than powerful enough, even without being in an environment to give him an advantage, to be able to beat all of them.

When Vegeta defeated Pui Pui:
Bobiddi: “Wh-Why are there people with that kind of power on Earth…?!!”

Dabra: "When I had [the Earth] investigated about 300 years ago there wasn’t anyone like this…”
If he could sense that Vegeta and the others were strong enough to defeat Pui Pui, then it shouldn't have come to a surprise to him that such beings could exist, and there's certainly no reason he would have avoided telling Babi-di such things.

Then, on two separate occasions, Dabra outright states that they're no match for Yakon:
Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’ll all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

Dabra: “Hahhahha. Even without moving them to the Dark Planet, Yakon will be more than enough to defeat them…”
Additionally, you have to remember that the Dabra in Trunks' time would be dealing with a Z-sword trained Trunks, who would end up being vastly more powerful than Buu arc Goku and the others in their respective forms, so whereas Pui Pui and Yakon might have only been fodder for Trunks, it's clear that he saw them as being legitimately strong enough to take on Goku and the others in the Buu arc, meaning that his ki sensing was inaccurate at best.

2) Perhaps because Toriyama wanted Vegeta to do it as some personal atonement for having caused the incident in the first place on multiple levels (most recently being the reason Gohan was crippled)? He apologized to Gohan after Gohan took the hit, and maybe Toriyama decided that he could have Vegeta do that as a way of making amends and being the one to help.

You yourself have been a proponent for the idea that Goten and Trunks aren't as strong as the adults or even Piccolo, so by your logic, wouldn't it have made more sense for Piccolo to have been the one to knock Buu away to save Vegeta, if the only reasoning being used is strength? That alone, given where you put the boys, should show that Toriyama goes with what seems more fitting to the story rather than what makes the most sense in terms of just who's the strongest.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Speedster » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:19 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Speedster wrote:Which guide is this? A video game guide?
V-jump.
V-Jump also says that the power level of SSJ Goku in the Buu arc is 150 million. The 40 million for Yakkon was actually derived by the 800/3000 ratio of Yakkon's to SSJ Goku's power in kili scale. As you can see the original premise of V-jump (that SSJ Goku in the Buu arc has a power level of 150mllion) is bullshit. And so is Yakkon's 40million.
dragon boss z wrote:
Speedster wrote:Why does Gohan need to be much stronger than SSJ Vegeta in the Cell Games?
Because it was confirmed ssj Vegeta<<<ssj Goku<=>ssj Gohan...
Not sure why you disagree then. Yes, SSJ Gohan in the Cell games was considerably stronger than SSJ Vegeta in the Cell games and much stronger than the Super Vegeta who faced Semi Perfect Cell. We know that FPSSJ1 Goku (who was about equal to FPSSJ Gohan) when he powered in front of Karin to 50% of his maximum was enough to make Vegeta jealous and Trunks to stand in awe. So FPSSJ Gohan in the Cell games must had been like 4-4.5x stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. Combining this with the 3.75x multiplier of SSJ in the Buu arc and base Gohan, even weaker by 10%, is still above Semi-Perfect Cell’s level. I doubt Piccolo reached Semi-Perfect Cell by the Buu arc. That is a level more than double of his power against #17.
dragon boss z wrote:When Piccolo came out of the ROSAT Trunks was extremely impressed by his power. At most ssj Vegeta was a couple times stronger than Piccolo.ssj Vegeta and Trunks were definitely stronger than Piccolo. Just not by a crazy amount. A couple times at most, which is actually a good amount, but not near enough for their bases to be even close to him.
We don't disagree much. You say they are 2x stronger. I say they are 3x. But that 1.5x difference is enough to put him below base Gohan in the Buu arc.
Darkprince410 wrote:Perhaps because Toriyama wanted Vegeta to do it as some personal atonement for having caused the incident in the first place on multiple levels (most recently being the reason Gohan was crippled)? He apologized to Gohan after Gohan took the hit, and maybe Toriyama decided that he could have Vegeta do that as a way of making amends and being the one to help.

You yourself have been a proponent for the idea that Goten and Trunks aren't as strong as the adults or even Piccolo, so by your logic, wouldn't it have made more sense for Piccolo to have been the one to knock Buu away to save Vegeta, if the only reasoning being used is strength? That alone, given where you put the boys, should show that Toriyama goes with what seems more fitting to the story rather than what makes the most sense in terms of just who's the strongest.
The one who delivered the sneak attack to Buu in chapter 466 was SSJ Trunks. Not base Trunks. It is perfectly possible that SSJ Trunks is both stronger than Piccolo and much weaker than the adult Super Saiyans. All it needs for that to work is that the adult Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo even in their base form. Which is what I have always supported along with the following:
1. SSJ is not a fixed multiplier, it is instead a boost that appears like a multiplier. The apparent multiplier depends on the individual but is not larger than 10 since the Cell arc.
2. The stronger the base the smaller the apparent SSJ multiplier.
3. The Adult Saiyan bases are easily above Piccolo and 18 in the Buu arc.
4. Goten and Trunks in base are about Freeza level as per the “Yo Son Goku and his friends return” special. As Super Saiyans they are stronger than #18 and likely a bit above Piccolo.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:04 am

Speedster wrote: 1. SSJ is not a fixed multiplier, it is instead a boost that appears like a multiplier. The apparent multiplier depends on the individual but is not larger than 10 since the Cell arc.
2. The stronger the base the smaller the apparent SSJ multiplier.
3. The Adult Saiyan bases are easily above Piccolo and 18 in the Buu arc.
4. Goten and Trunks in base are about Freeza level as per the “Yo Son Goku and his friends return” special. As Super Saiyans they are stronger than #18 and likely a bit above Piccolo.
1: SSJ is still a 50x multiplier, nothing in the guides or the new show Super has contradicated this, in fact they support it further.

2: Same as point 1.

3: This is not true, they're not significantly stronger than they were in the Cell Arc, as is shown by Goku not surpassing Kid Gohan until he goes SSJ2, and Gohan still being relevant despite actually getting weaker. For Base Saiyans to be above Piccolo they would have to have already surpassed him back in the Cell Arc and this is not the case, Piccolo is much closer to an SSJ than a Base Saiyan.

4: This would mean they are stronger than the Adult Saiyans which would make no sense, it's far more reasonable to assume Tarble was referring to Frieza's restriction form. It's unlikely that he would know of Frieza's true power and I doubt Frieza would keep 2 guys who are just as strong as him around.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Kaboom » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:12 am

It seems evident to me that while Bobbidi and Dabra realized who among the heroes had "marvelous energy" compared to the others, they didn't know how that power actually stacked up against themselves or their own minions. They weren't using traditional ki-sensing or the Kiri meter, and the heroes were all suppressed down to nothing anyway... so whatever magical clairvoyance they utilized apparently didn't tell them much beyond "these three are the strongest, by a lot."

So what "marvelous energy" both makes the three Saiyans so much stronger than the others, and was potent enough to let Majin Boo be revived that very day? Their Super Saiyan (2) power. If you ask me, that's what Bobbidi and Dabra magically detected, but they had no actual proportion for it to compare to their own forces.
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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:04 pm

Kaboom wrote:It seems evident to me that while Bobbidi and Dabra realized who among the heroes had "marvelous energy" compared to the others, they didn't know how that power actually stacked up against themselves or their own minions. They weren't using traditional ki-sensing or the Kiri meter, and the heroes were all suppressed down to nothing anyway... so whatever magical clairvoyance they utilized apparently didn't tell them much beyond "these three are the strongest, by a lot."

So what "marvelous energy" both makes the three Saiyans so much stronger than the others, and was potent enough to let Majin Boo be revived that very day? Their Super Saiyan (2) power. If you ask me, that's what Bobbidi and Dabra magically detected, but they had no actual proportion for it to compare to their own forces.
There was a somewhat similar situation with Kuririn and Trunks as well, when he realized that Trunks was hiding some power (Grade 3) but didn't know how much.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:21 pm

Speedster wrote:V-Jump also says that the power level of SSJ Goku in the Buu arc is 150 million.
Goku could of very well of been suppressed.
The 40 million for Yakkon was actually derived by the 800/3000 ratio of Yakkon's to SSJ Goku's power in kili scale.
Supposedly the numbers 800 and 3000 and numbers used when talking about a large amount in japanese, so that is most likely why those numbers were chosen.

"Incidentally, the numbers given for Yakon and Goku, 800 and 3,000, are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying “an enormous amount”, similar to the way the number 40 is used throughout the Christian Bible. For instance, the 800 temples of Kyoto are proverbial, as are the 8 million gods of Shinto (8 million being 800 man in Japanese, that is 800×10,000), while in Buddhism the phrase “3,000 worlds” signifies all of creation."
-I got this from this sight on power levels.

They really aren't mean to mean much except that ssj Goku>Yakon.
As you can see the original premise of V-jump (that SSJ Goku in the Buu arc has a power level of 150mllion) is bullshit.
only if that's his full power.
And so is Yakkon's 40million.
How so? Yakkon being at 40 million makes perfect sense. Also 200-300 kilis is supposed to be enough power to destroy a planet or two, so if you go by V-jumps calculation that means a power level of around 5 million is planet level, which makes sense, and if anything that's a high number. So saying that 3,000 kilis should be more than 150 mil or 800 kilis should be more than 40 mil is like saying to planet bust you need a power level in the mid millions, which is way too high.
dragon boss z wrote:
Speedster wrote:Why does Gohan need to be much stronger than SSJ Vegeta in the Cell Games?
Because it was confirmed ssj Vegeta<<<ssj Goku<=>ssj Gohan...
Not sure why you disagree then.
What? I never disagreed with Gohan being a lot stronger with Vegeta. I though you were disagreeing with that. Saying "Why does Gohan need to be much stronger than ssj Vegeta in the Cell Games" sounds like you are saying he isn't.
Yes, SSJ Gohan in the Cell games was considerably stronger than SSJ Vegeta in the Cell games and much stronger than the Super Vegeta who faced Semi Perfect Cell. We know that FPSSJ1 Goku (who was about equal to FPSSJ Gohan) when he powered in front of Karin to 50% of his maximum was enough to make Vegeta jealous and Trunks to stand in awe. So FPSSJ Gohan in the Cell games must had been like 4-4.5x stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. Combining this with the 3.75x multiplier of SSJ in the Buu arc and base Gohan, even weaker by 10%, is still above Semi-Perfect Cell’s level.
there is no way ssj is a 3.75x multiplier. The lowest it would be is x10, but really it is still most likely x50. Whis even confirmed it multiplied their power tens of times over in Super.

Also Gohan doesn't need to be 4x stronger than semi perfect cell. Vegeta was maybe 30% stronger than semi perfect Cell, and Gohan was maybe a little over twice Vegeta. I would say 2.5x to 3x at most.
I doubt Piccolo reached Semi-Perfect Cell by the Buu arc. That is a level more than double of his power against #17.
You realized Goku got over 5x stronger while in the ROSAT right?
Also Piccolo just fused with Kami which means his potential to get stronger probably grew.
In the 3 year time skip training for the androids Piccolo went from second form Frieza tier to 50% Frieza tier. That's over 20x stronger.
We don't disagree much. You say they are 2x stronger. I say they are 3x. But that 1.5x difference is enough to put him below base Gohan in the Buu arc.
tbh where we disagree most is the ssj multiplier, our levels of power for their max is pretty similar.
Goten and Trunks in base are about Freeza level as per the “Yo Son Goku and his friends return” special. As Super Saiyans they are stronger than #18 and likely a bit above Piccolo.
Abo and Cado were as strong as Frieza's first form.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by kinisking » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:05 pm

nickzambuto wrote:The whole first half of the Boo arc focused on how the saiyans have become freakishly and unnaturally strong. Dabura was directly compared to Cell and fought against Gohan, and Pui Pui's 10x gravity schtick comes from the Saiyans arc, and he fought Vegeta. So I like to go with the interpretation that all of Babidi's minions represented a power tier from the past, Pui Pui being Saiyans arc Vegeta, Yakon being Freeza, and Dabura being Cell, and they all fought their respective rivals in order for the three saiyans to showcase how far all three of the saiyans have come and their current status. Vegeta humiliated his former self, Goku destroyed Freeza with Super Saiyan light, and Gohan had regressed and looked foolish against an enemy he should have handled easily as a result. It's a clever and nostalgic way of setting the scene for the introduction of the newest and ultimate villain; Majin Boo.

All of this means that Pui Pui is as strong as Vegeta was during the saiyans arc. If you want, you can think of him as Oozaru Vegeta rather than base, but I don't think he should be any higher.
Wow. I got to admit, I never thought of it that way! I really like this interpretation.
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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by mAcChaos » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:11 pm

Pui Pui had to be strong. Kaioshin was scared of him, remember. And he can 1 shot Freeza.
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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:22 pm

mAcChaos wrote:Pui Pui had to be strong. Kaioshin was scared of him, remember. And he can 1 shot Freeza.
There's a fair bit of anecdotal evidence supporting that Babi-di's men can't be sensed at all. Spopovitch and Yam were stated to have no life energy that could be detected at all.
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”
Goku likewise had to use air current changes, rather than sensing ki, to detect Yakon's location when everyone was taken to the Dark Planet.

And when it came to estimating Dabra's power, Goku and Vegeta relied on his "movements" rather than any ki they could sense from him.
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Then there's just the overall fact that Kaioushin, despite having sensed Ssj2 Gohan only minutes before, would still think the likes of Pui Pui to be a credible threat.

So it's fairly likely, given that all the other men seemingly couldn't be sensed, that Pui Pui couldn't either, and that Kaioushin's fears rested solely under the premise that Babi-di only recruits powerful fighters, and thus Pui Pui must be strong because he's one of those recruits.
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