Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

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dragonball0900
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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:42 pm

dragon boss z wrote: There was 5 years between the 23rd budokai and Raditz showing up and Goku's power level went from somewhere above 300 to 416.
That was before Toriyama thought of the power levels. How did the humans got from 177, 206 and 250 all the way to 1480, 1770 and 1830 respectively? I know they trained with Kami, but they wouldn't get to those power levels that are over Raditz if Goku also trained with Kami for a good 3 years, right?
dragon boss z wrote:In between the Cell and Buu saga Goku wasn't even able to get his ssj form stronger than ssj2 teen Gohan.
Yes, I know that. Here's my power scaling chart to get an idea of what I try to say:

SSJ2 Goku/SSJ2 Majin Vegeta - 100
SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)/Super Perfect Cell/SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu Saga) - 80
SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Saga) - 65
Perfect Cell - 60
SSJ Goku (Buu Saga) - 50
SSJ Gohan (Cell Games)/SSJ Vegeta (Buu Saga) - 40
Dabura - 35
SSJ Gohan (Buu Saga) - 32.5
SSJ Goku (Cell Games) - 30
Supreme Kai - 25
Cell Jr/Base Goku (Buu Saga) - 20
SSJ Vegeta (Cell Games) - 18
Base Vegeta (Buu Saga) - 16
SSJ Future Trunks (Cell Games) - 15
Base Gohan (Buu Saga) - 13
Yakon - 13
Piccolo (Buu Saga) - 10.5
Piccolo (Cell Games) - 6.5
dragon boss z wrote:It is extremely unlikely Goku got his base over 40x stronger just from training.
My reasons are stated above, that the humans also got 1 year of training and were suddenly above Raditz, unlike in DB, when Goku only got to the 300 mark by 3 full years of training.

dragon boss z wrote:3,000 kilis probably wasn't Goku's full power. Also those numbers were picked because 800 and 3000 are a pun on really large numbers in Japanese. I put the quote in a earlier post.
But those numbers were indeed given to us to demostrate their gaps in their powers, to show what they have, sure Goku may be supressing his power a little, but who says he was not supressing was well in his base? The same case can be applied in DBS when Goku fought Beerus, although in that case it was just to test his strenght, unlike against Yakon in which Goku was more rushed.

dragon boss z wrote:Whis confirmed ssj multiplies their power tens of times over.
Maybe when they achieved Super Saiyan God, the multiplier got over X10. I would like to see the scene where that statement is said, since I can't rewatch all the episodes to look for it.
Last edited by dragonball0900 on Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:23 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
That was before Toriyama thought of the power levels. How did the humans got from 177, 206 and 250 all the way to 1480, 1770 and 1830 respectively? I know they trained with Kami, but they wouldn't get to those power levels that are over Raditz if Goku also trained with Kami for a good 3 years, right?
The weaker you are the easier it is to get strong. It's called noob gains. Like if you lift weights you get strong pretty quickly, but after a while your gains slow down.
Yes, I know that. Here's my power scaling chart to get an idea of what I try to say:

SSJ2 Goku/SSJ2 Majin Vegeta - 100
SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)/Super Perfect Cell/SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu Saga) - 80
SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Saga) - 65
Perfect Cell - 60
SSJ Goku (Buu Saga) - 50
SSJ Gohan (Cell Games)/SSJ Vegeta (Buu Saga) - 40
Dabura - 35
SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Saga) - 32.5
SSJ Goku (Cell Games) - 30
Supreme Kai - 25
Cell Jr/Base Goku (Buu Saga) - 20
SSJ Vegeta (Cell Games) - 18
Base Vegeta (Buu Saga) - 16
SSJ Future Trunks (Cell Games) - 15
Base Gohan (Buu Saga) - 13
Yakon - 13
Piccolo (Buu Saga) - 10.5
Piccolo (Cell Games) - 6.5
imo by the way they were talking their ssj2 form was closer to ssj2 teen gohan than their normal ssj form.
My reasons are stated above, that the humans also got 1 year of training and were suddenly above Raditz, unlike in DB, when Goku only got to the 300 mark by 3 full years of training.
To get big boosts you need to increase your training intensity. Goku went to King Kais for increased training intensity, then 100x gravity for increased training intensity. Then later they went to the ROSAT. After that he really didn't do much until he went to Whis for even more training intensity.

But those numbers were indeed given to us to demostrate their gaps in their powers, to show what they have, sure Goku may be supressing his power a little, but who says he was not supressing was well in his base? The same case can be applied in DBS when Goku fought Beerus, although in that case it was just to test his strenght, unlike against Yakon in which Goku was more rushed.
Goku was supressed in his base. He always is. When they red his power level in the namek saga it was 5,000 but it was really 90,000. Goku never has his full power on display. Also when he showed Korin just half his power he needed to power up.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragonballer » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:26 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
There's a fair bit of anecdotal evidence supporting that Babi-di's men can't be sensed at all. Spopovitch and Yam were stated to have no life energy that could be detected at all.
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”
they can be sensed by ki sensers,gohan and the others didn't notice how strange their ki was,that means they only lack a special property of ki (maybe genki).

Darkprince410 wrote: Everything points to Dabra having no accurate ki sensing capacity, so using his estimation of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan as evidence is unreasonable.
Dabra and Babidi can't sense ki at all,at least not like the z-fighters,otherwise they would have sensed ssj2 gohan when he transformed. And Babidi couldn't find piccolo and the others while Buu,after he learned how to sense ki as super Buu,found them immediately.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:02 pm

dragon boss z wrote: The weaker you are the easier it is to get strong. It's called noob gains. Like if you lift weights you get strong pretty quickly, but after a while your gains slow down.
That doesn't seem to be the case here in Dragon Ball. Look at how well they progressed during the 3 years of training for the Androids Saga, specially Piccolo. With the ROSAT training, that's even more gains. Look at how great the difference between the Vegeta after the ROSAT and the Vegeta before the ROSAT, it was so big.
dragon boss z wrote:imo by the way they were talking their ssj2 form was closer to ssj2 teen gohan than their normal ssj form.
It's fine actually. It's more closer to the SSJ2 Vegeta than SSJ Goku. I also corrected the "SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Saga)" 32.5 mistake on my list, it was meant to be "SSJ Gohan (Buu Saga)"
dragon boss z wrote:To get big boosts you need to increase your training intensity. Goku went to King Kais for increased training intensity, then 100x gravity for increased training intensity. Then later they went to the ROSAT. After that he really didn't do much until he went to Whis for even more training intensity.
Yeah, the 7 years gap wasn't really a big boost to be honest. But previous to that, the hard training the Z warriors were getting (Vegeta training on heavy gravity, and Goku training with good partners like Piccolo and Gohan, and the ROSAT) was intensive.[/quote]
dragon boss z wrote:Goku was supressed in his base. He always is. When they red his power level in the namek saga it was 5,000 but it was really 90,000. Goku never has his full power on display. Also when he showed Korin just half his power he needed to power up.
That's my point! Against Yakon, Goku could easily be suppressed, that's why he mentioned in the manga that Yakon nearly killed him while fighting, with Gohan saying that they could take him if they fight in their base, that indicates that in his base, Goku would stronger than the 800 mark, making him like 1000 or more. Goku could also easily make the same as a SSJ. If supressed Goku is 800 like Yakon, and full base is 1000 or more, then SSJ supressed Goku would be 3000 and full SSJ would be... well, 4000 kilis? It would make more sense, and it gives more credence to the theory of the multiplier being X2.5 or X3 by the time of the Buu saga.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:16 pm

dragonballer wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:
There's a fair bit of anecdotal evidence supporting that Babi-di's men can't be sensed at all. Spopovitch and Yam were stated to have no life energy that could be detected at all.
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”
they can be sensed by ki sensers,gohan and the others didn't notice how strange their ki was,that means they only lack a special property of ki (maybe genki).

Darkprince410 wrote: Everything points to Dabra having no accurate ki sensing capacity, so using his estimation of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan as evidence is unreasonable.
Dabra and Babidi can't sense ki at all,at least not like the z-fighters,otherwise they would have sensed ssj2 gohan when he transformed. And Babidi couldn't find piccolo and the others while Buu,after he learned how to sense ki as super Buu,found them immediately.
1) Goku's comments suggest otherwise. In addition to not having any life that could be detectable, he reacted in confusion to Spopovitch firing a ki blast, stating that he seems to have power beyond his own abilities. If they could sense that (or anything, for that matter) from him from the get go, it wouldn't make sense for them to think that Videl had any kind of chance at all.

2) It's clear from Dabra's statement that he has some rudimentary ki sensing capability, but that it's so vague and inaccurate that it can't reasonably be used for battle power discussions.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:51 am

dragonball0900 wrote: That doesn't seem to be the case here in Dragon Ball. Look at how well they progressed during the 3 years of training for the Androids Saga, specially Piccolo. With the ROSAT training, that's even more gains. Look at how great the difference between the Vegeta after the ROSAT and the Vegeta before the ROSAT, it was so big.
Piccolo getting so strong in the 3 year training gap imo is because he fused with Nail. That gave him more potential to grow. ROSAT made them get so strong because it was extremely intense training. They got stronger in 1 year of the ROSAT than 7 years in-between the Cell and Buu saga.
That's my point! Against Yakon, Goku could easily be suppressed, that's why he mentioned in the manga that Yakon nearly killed him while fighting, with Gohan saying that they could take him if they fight in their base, that indicates that in his base, Goku would stronger than the 800 mark, making him like 1000 or more. Goku could also easily make the same as a SSJ. If supressed Goku is 800 like Yakon, and full base is 1000 or more, then SSJ supressed Goku would be 3000 and full SSJ would be... well, 4000 kilis? It would make more sense, and it gives more credence to the theory of the multiplier being X2.5 or X3 by the time of the Buu saga.
Goku's base doesn't need to be above Yakon. Goku is far more skilled, fast, and has better techniques. He would be able to beat Yakon even if his power level was lower imo.
Also it was stated 200-300 kilis is planet to multi planet level. Lets say you have to be as strong as first form Frieza to planet bust, Yakon being stronger than final form Frieza doesn't add up since Frieza's final form is over 200x stronger than his first form.

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Re: Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

Post by dragonballer » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:02 pm

Darkprince410 wrote: 1) Goku's comments suggest otherwise. In addition to not having any life that could be detectable, he reacted in confusion to Spopovitch firing a ki blast, stating that he seems to have power beyond his own abilities. If they could sense that (or anything, for that matter) from him from the get go, it wouldn't make sense for them to think that Videl had any kind of chance at all.
yes,Spopovitch can use more power than the ki they detected,but his ki is not like god ki. He can be sensed,no one but Goku noticed how strange Spopovitch was,if he doesn't have ki at all,the z-fighters would have commented about that before the fight started,something like "look,he has no ki",instead Gohan asked Goku what he means by "no life".

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