Are the SEG multipliers anything more than arbitrary figures?

[Saturnine]

Let's be honest - before the SEG came out, not a single one of us would give SSj2 just a 2x multiplier. Figures ranging from 5 to 8x were common.

Do you think the authors of the SEG put much thought into developing these numbers, or did they just slap on arbitrary numbers off the top of their head? It's a really bothersome question, considering how a sizeable portion of the community accepts these multipliers and even considers them undisputable.

[Kaboom]

I've thought about this before too, and I think they really did know what they were doing.

Super Saiyan's 50x boost doesn't need explaining, but all along that's supposed to be the largest power boost that the other ones simply build upon incrementally. While Super Saiyan 2 seems like a really big deal at the Cell Games, beyond that point during the Majin Boo arc it isn't treated as a particularly huge increase over Super Saiyan 1. Super Saiyan 3, meanwhile, really is treated like a comparatively huge boost, so drastic that its power can be felt across the realm of the afterlife.

So the way I see it, the 2x and 4x boosts for each level both fit those general criteria: Super Saiyan 2 is a relatively small boost while Super Saiyan 3 is a much larger one, but even when combined neither one of them come close to overshadowing regular Super Saiyan.

[Nejishiki]

Concerning the "thought" that was applied, I found it strange how they aren't given so much as an explanation. They're merely presented as-is, to the best of my knowledge. Super Saiyan "1", by comparison, briefly went into why it believed Goku became fifty times stronger against Freeza in Daizenshuu 7's battle power chart. It's not that I need or want everything explained to me. But it does come off as completionism for the sake of triviality. Some equally brief and fun insight would be appreciated if we're going through the trouble at all. If anything, my impression is that the multipliers were the initial, instead of static, boosts featured in the original story.

[Desassina]

The only reason why SSJ2 and SSJ3 feel low is because you're not expanding the SEG numbers. Without contradicting them:

SSJ1 - [50, 100] - an increase of 2 fold towards its full power.
SSJ2 - [100, 400] - an increase of 4 fold towards its full power.
SSJ3 - [400, 6400] - an increase of 16 fold towards its full power.

... when their SSJ number is 50. It could be 10, for example, in case their base power was 5. We only limit ourselves by using static figures.

[Saturnine]

The only reason why SSJ2 and SSJ3 feel low is because you're not expanding the SEG numbers. Without contradicting them:

SSJ1 - [50, 100] - an increase of 2 fold towards its full power.
SSJ2 - [100, 400] - an increase of 4 fold towards its full power.
SSJ3 - [400, 6400] - an increase of 16 fold towards its full power.

... when their SSJ number is 50. It could be 10, for example, in case their base power was 5. We only limit ourselves by using static figures.

That's how multiplication works, you know... Static figures. Nothing ever has led us to believe that the multipliers scale is anything other than linear.

Super Saiyan's 50x boost doesn't need explaining, but all along that's supposed to be the largest power boost that the other ones simply build upon incrementally. While Super Saiyan 2 seems like a really big deal at the Cell Games, beyond that point during the Majin Boo arc it isn't treated as a particularly huge increase over Super Saiyan 1.

Yeah, I've noticed this too. And I agree, generally. But to reconcile this discrepancy, I've taken to going with the "rage boost" theory, where Gohan becomes more than just 2x stronger due to his emotional upheaval, while Goku and Vegeta get a regular 2x boost while going SSj2. DB Super has expanded on SSj2 being affected by rage (or even trained in the manga), so I don't think it's as far-fetched.

Also, let's not forget that Gohan lost about half of his ki after he took that blow from Cell to protect Vegeta. If SSj2 then was only 2x, that would only put him on his FPSSj level. He would stand no chance against Cell. What do you think about that?

[Desassina]

That's how multiplication works, you know... Static figures. Nothing ever has led us to believe that the multipliers scale is anything other than linear.

They jump straight into their transformations and they increase their power while at it. Even Kaioken had a steadily increasing power when he could simply shout its number. You, my friend, have simply come off as an ass.

[Saturnine]

That's how multiplication works, you know... Static figures. Nothing ever has led us to believe that the multipliers scale is anything other than linear.

They jump straight into their transformations and they increase their power while at it. Even Kaioken had a steadily increasing power when he could simply shout its number. You, my friend, have simply come off as an ass.

Still, the 50x multiplier for Super Saiyan is supposed to be the maximum of what it grants, not just what it grants right off the bat. Sure I do think it can grant more (after unlocking FPSSj at least), but SSj1 is unique in that regard. SSj2 and 3 only offer flat multipliers on top of that, and except for Toyotaro's Super manga it doesn't seem they can be further boosted.

[Desassina]

Fair enough. I just think that boosting a transformation isn't always a given, nor do they keep that up without going down. Their power spikes up to a certain point, and then goes down, but the SEG numbers could work like thresholds that won't let the power slip below their state. Think of it like cars shifting gears: first you accelerate your car until you can change gears to one above, but you're wasting more gas while you're at it. The ideal scenario would be to optimize these cars to minimize their consumption when you're at the tipping point of changing gears. That's the concept of Full Power SSJ, at least, but I have to work with the fact that cars get the best mileage on a highway with the highest gear.

[LightBing]

What would everyone say if someone posted random numbers or rules in this forum and didn't explained them. We wouldn't just take their word for it and we would need an explanation. The same standard should apply to the SEG.
The only person above this standard is Mr.Toriyama himself.

[Xyex]

Let's be honest - before the SEG came out, not a single one of us would give SSj2 just a 2x multiplier. Figures ranging from 5 to 8x were common.

Do you think the authors of the SEG put much thought into developing these numbers, or did they just slap on arbitrary numbers off the top of their head? It's a really bothersome question, considering how a sizeable portion of the community accepts these multipliers and even considers them undisputable.

I've always given SSJ2 a 2x multiplier, since the first time I saw it. There's absolutely zero reason it should be anything else. Arguements about the Cell Games are moot, Gohan's got "Rawr! Imma kill you now!" powers that have the same trigger as transformations and which the series implied he'd tapped into and fully unlocked when going SSJ2. Thus, if his original power was 100 in base, and 5,000 at SSJ1, when he went SSJ2 his base power could have easily increased to 250 putting him at 12,500 in SSJ and 25,000 at SSJ2 - instead of only 10,000. Don't forget that Goku was not expecting SSJ2, he was just expecting Gohan's full power in the first form to be enough to defeat Cell.

[Nejishiki]

Don't forget that Goku was not expecting SSJ2, he was just expecting Gohan's full power in the first form to be enough to defeat Cell.

While not informally coined until seven years later, the Saiyans were all training to surpass the "Super Saiyan wall". That's what the levels of Super Saiyan are commonly referenced as from "1-3". The idea of "surpassing Super Saiyan as a Super Saiyan" originates as early as Vegeta's internal considerations after his loss to No. 18. Yes, Gohan's anger was certainly a factor Goku relied on. Let's not neglect the rest of the details though. Ultimately, the Graded transformations supported Super Saiyan yet failed to significantly power through or even come close to reaching "the wall". It wasn't the approach they initially desired so it was back to the drawing board after their discovery.

By comparison, the Room of Spirit of Time training regimen served to have Super Saiyan run naturally, focus their mental struggles & imaginative strength to improve & make greater powers a reality through meditation, and spar at comparable levels together to efficiently raise their current limits. Forsaking any one of those elements and pushing Gohan into the battlefield with only the hope he'll get angry enough would be fruitless. There's purpose to Goku making Gohan a Super Saiyan first before anything else. Properly maintaining his angered state beyond a burst was vital. Their time together guided him towards the appropriate road to become a "Super Saiyan 2" at all.

[Saturnine]

Let's be honest - before the SEG came out, not a single one of us would give SSj2 just a 2x multiplier. Figures ranging from 5 to 8x were common.

Do you think the authors of the SEG put much thought into developing these numbers, or did they just slap on arbitrary numbers off the top of their head? It's a really bothersome question, considering how a sizeable portion of the community accepts these multipliers and even considers them undisputable.

I've always given SSJ2 a 2x multiplier, since the first time I saw it. There's absolutely zero reason it should be anything else. Arguements about the Cell Games are moot, Gohan's got "Rawr! Imma kill you now!" powers that have the same trigger as transformations and which the series implied he'd tapped into and fully unlocked when going SSJ2. Thus, if his original power was 100 in base, and 5,000 at SSJ1, when he went SSJ2 his base power could have easily increased to 250 putting him at 12,500 in SSJ and 25,000 at SSJ2 - instead of only 10,000. Don't forget that Goku was not expecting SSJ2, he was just expecting Gohan's full power in the first form to be enough to defeat Cell.

That just sounds like an attempt to rationalize the 2x multiplier. We never got any hint that achieving a transformation does anything to your base form. Also, in regard to that part in particular:

I've always given SSJ2 a 2x multiplier, since the first time I saw it. There's absolutely zero reason it should be anything else.

SSj2 Gohan pwned Perfect Cell. Then Perfect Cell powered up to his full power, getting stronger by an indeterminate but significant amount, and SSj2 Gohan still pwned him. Then Cell bulked up, becoming even stronger, and Gohan fucking destroyed him in a single blow. If that in your opinion could be allowed by a mere 2x upgrade, then you're definitely missing something.

Also, there's that tiny bit where Gohan lost approximately half of his ki, yet was still able to hold Cell off in a Kamehameha duel. If SSj2 was only 2x, that would put Gohan only at his FPSSj power. And at that level of power, Perfect Cell defeated him, and that was before powering up to maximum, let alone powering up to Super Perfect Cell. Catch my drift? There's definitely a much wider gap here, and it's pretty much nothing but facts in this situation.

Super Perfect Cell = SSj2 Gohan > Bulked Up FP Perfect Cell > Full Power Perfect Cell > Powered up Cell = FPSSj Gohan > FPSSJ Goku > Standby Cell = Standby Goku

[Kaboom]

Also, let's not forget that Gohan lost about half of his ki after he took that blow from Cell to protect Vegeta. If SSj2 then was only 2x, that would only put him on his FPSSj level. He would stand no chance against Cell. What do you think about that?

Fits just fine as far as I figure. Despite how the anime dragged things out, in the manga the Kamehameha clash was very short and Gohan was losing, badly, right off the bat. He won in the end because he managed to summon back his full power and then some. Several of the guidebooks label his final burst against Cell as Gohan's "greatest power" and "the strongest Kamehameha ever" and things along those lines, so he didn't win with anything near the "less than half" power he started the clash with.

So to put (my) numbers to the whole exchange...

• SS Goku: 2,800
  Cell: 3,200
  -- Full Power: 4,800
  -- Bloated: 6,400
  -- Super Perfect: 7,000
  SS Gohan: 3,500
  -- Super Saiyan 2: 7,000
  -- Injured and discouraged: ~3,000
  -- Final Burst: 8,000

Considering all I described above, plus depending on where you place Gohan and Cell's starting powers... there's plenty of room for Gohan's strength to "only" double from SS2 and Cell to only match him after three noticeable power-ups.

[Pantalones]

I always figured Gohan's seemingly huge boost from SSj2 at the Cell Games was not just SSj2, but one of Gohan's enormous rage boosts combined with SSJ2. It's a very different transformation from when Goku and Vegeta use it later in the Buu saga -- Gohan actually acts different after going SSJ2, and I figure that's the effect of the rage talking rather than the transformation. He's so pissed off that he wants to hurt Cell, not just defeat him to save the planet. Gohan's SSJ2 was always a "rage boost moment," the "big one" that all his other rage boosts had been leading up to from the very start. If not for Goku coming up with the term "Super Saiyan 2" in the Buu saga, it might've gone down in history as just Gohan's biggest rage boost rather than even being considered to be an actual new form at all.

I can see SSj3's multiplier as being more of an arbitrary figure, though. Wasn't it claimed to be a "dormant power unlocked/a Saiyan's full natural power" kind of thing at some point in the past, before the multiplier came out?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

They are official regardless of the thought that was put into them, so they always take precedence over fan speculation.

SSJ2 being a 2x multiplier works perfectly fine if you put it in numbers.

[spoiler]Cell arc Base Goku: 75,000,000
50% Super Saiyan Goku: 1,875,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 3,750,000,000

Perfect Cell(Suppressed against Goku): 4,000,000,000

Cell arc Base Gohan: 85,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan: 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 8,500,000,000

Perfect Cell(Suppressed against Gohan): 4,500,000,000

Perfect Cell: 6,000,000,000
Perfect Cell(Power stressed): 7,500,000,000
Perfect Cell(Zenkai): 8,500,000,000[/spoiler]

[Tectorman]

Also, let's not forget that Gohan lost about half of his ki after he took that blow from Cell to protect Vegeta. If SSj2 then was only 2x, that would only put him on his FPSSj level. He would stand no chance against Cell. What do you think about that?

It's easy enough to have SSJ2 be only x2 over SSJ and for Gohan to have been at half power when he was if you consider it to be a snapshot. Completely true at the time, but only at the time.

Gohan at this point is still heavily influenced by his emotions. What gets pointed out the most often are his rage boosts, because they're what's most useful, but it's actually all the emotions that affect him, for good or ill. So after he was faced with the Exploding Semi-Perfect Cell that would wipe out the Earth and he couldn't stop it, he took a blow to his confidence and his power suffered. His father comes in and sacrifices himself. Another sharp blow to his confidence and another drop in his power. Then it turns out that it hadn't helped at all and Cell was back, better than ever. Another drop in confidence and another blow to his power.

To the point that, right before he got hit by the blast meant for Vegeta, Gohan as a SSJ2 was barely stronger than his normal (that is to say, fully confident) SSJ. That injury took him down to 50%, but prior to the injury, he was already down to, say, 55% anyway. Then, after Goku speaks to him and tries to inspire him, Gohan goes back up to close to his normal SSJ2 power.

To illustrate with numbers:
Gohan: 1
Gohan SSJ: 50
Gohan SSJ2: 100
Perfect Cell: 45
Super Perfect Cell: 90
Gohan SSJ2 (diminished confidence): 55
Gohan SSJ2 (diminished confidence and injured): 50
Gohan SSJ2 (restored confidence but still injured): 85

And then I have his "last push" occurring the way it does because, though his confidence is back to normal and his power is almost back to normal, his body is still injured and can only sustain full power for a brief time. So he needed some kind of distraction before he could go to full power (that is to say, his full power not counting the loss from the injury)

Gohan SSJ2 "last push": 95

He certainly was at half power when he was talking to his father. I just don't think we should view that as "half-power due solely to the injury" or "half-power at that point and all the way up to the end".

[Kaboom]

Very good point, one I usually also consider but forgot to mention this time. Ki is both a physical and mental thing, and Gohan's power was most likely being affected by his mindset just as much as his injuries. So even though he was still definitely outclassed by Cell, he may well have risen up to more than half-power again when the clash started.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Also, let's not forget that Gohan lost about half of his ki after he took that blow from Cell to protect Vegeta. If SSj2 then was only 2x, that would only put him on his FPSSj level. He would stand no chance against Cell. What do you think about that?

It's easy enough to have SSJ2 be only x2 over SSJ and for Gohan to have been at half power when he was if you consider it to be a snapshot. Completely true at the time, but only at the time.

Gohan at this point is still heavily influenced by his emotions. What gets pointed out the most often are his rage boosts, because they're what's most useful, but it's actually all the emotions that affect him, for good or ill. So after he was faced with the Exploding Semi-Perfect Cell that would wipe out the Earth and he couldn't stop it, he took a blow to his confidence and his power suffered. His father comes in and sacrifices himself. Another sharp blow to his confidence and another drop in his power. Then it turns out that it hadn't helped at all and Cell was back, better than ever. Another drop in confidence and another blow to his power.

To the point that, right before he got hit by the blast meant for Vegeta, Gohan as a SSJ2 was barely stronger than his normal (that is to say, fully confident) SSJ. That injury took him down to 50%, but prior to the injury, he was already down to, say, 55% anyway. Then, after Goku speaks to him and tries to inspire him, Gohan goes back up to close to his normal SSJ2 power.

To illustrate with numbers:
Gohan: 1
Gohan SSJ: 50
Gohan SSJ2: 100
Perfect Cell: 45
Super Perfect Cell: 90
Gohan SSJ2 (diminished confidence): 55
Gohan SSJ2 (diminished confidence and injured): 50
Gohan SSJ2 (restored confidence but still injured): 85

And then I have his "last push" occurring the way it does because, though his confidence is back to normal and his power is almost back to normal, his body is still injured and can only sustain full power for a brief time. So he needed some kind of distraction before he could go to full power (that is to say, his full power not counting the loss from the injury)

Gohan SSJ2 "last push": 95

He certainly was at half power when he was talking to his father. I just don't think we should view that as "half-power due solely to the injury" or "half-power at that point and all the way up to the end".

To further support your point, the fact that Cell even came back shows that Gohan didn't lose half his power solely from the injury. If this was the case, his normal power would be double that of Cell and no matter how overconfident he is there's no way Cell would feel that he'd become strong enough to match Gohan if there was still such a huge discrepancy.

Furthermore, with a 2x gap Gohan would experience no difficulty deflecting Cell's blast, in fact even a direct hit wouldn't injure him in the slightest since it was just a regular ki blast.

[Nejishiki]

I can see SSj3's multiplier as being more of an arbitrary figure, though. Wasn't it claimed to be a "dormant power unlocked/a Saiyan's full natural power" kind of thing at some point in the past, before the multiplier came out?

Specifically, "The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time" as described in Daizenshuu 7's Special Attack Dictionary, if you were referring to that.

[Saturnine]

There might indeed be room for Gohan to only be 2x, but to do that you need to make the gaps really small. Like bloated Cell vs SP Cell as 6400 to 7000?

Come on, this is less than a 1,1x power differrnce, and Gohan completely Yamcha'd bloated Cell. Of course you CAN force a mere 2x multiplier for SSj2 if you want it badly enough but... why would you want it that badly?

[ He won in the end because he managed to summon back his full power and then some. Several of the guidebooks label his final burst against Cell as Gohan's "greatest power" and "the strongest Kamehameha ever" and things along those lines, so he didn't win with anything near the "less than half" power he started the clash with.

Of course he didn't, I never said he did. I only said that he was initially at half his power. We all know what happened afterwards. Still, if Gohan started out only at his FPSSj level, he would get easily overpowered by Full Power Perfect Cell, much less Super Perfect Cell, in an instant. Of course he had an edge over Perfect Cell at the level Goku fought against, and lost mostly due to his lack of resolve, but when Cell powered up to the max, it was supposed to be a big deal.

Perfect Cell: 45
Super Perfect Cell: 90

Were you going for a 2x SSj2 boost here for Cell? In that case you've forgotten that Cell still had to go Full Power. How about put the 2x multiplier on top of that? Which is not illogical. That could put Super Perfect Cell as high as 135 or even higher, which would necessitate a higher boost for Gohan. Funny how everyone keeps forcing the 2x multiplier for the Saiyans, but not for Cell himself.