LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

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TheMikado
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LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:36 am

I've written on this subject many many times before with the same explanation, but it always is immediately dismissed out of hand without consideration because it's "not canon" and from Toriyama. :roll:

The Legendary Super Saiyan Form, in the context of the greater story is an incredibly deep critique of the saiyan race at it's core. This form is deemed as the ultimate representation of a Saiyan's power. While we do not know how the new representation of the form will play out, it carries many similarities and so this will be written based on what we have seen of the previous versions of it.

1) Power- The form is incredibly powerful, far stronger than the strongest organic being in the universe which was Frieza. We really have no idea quite how strong the form is, but if we compared it to say Cell, I doubt Perfect Cell could have handled all the Z warriors simultaneously, and certainly not as effortlessly.

2) Sadistic Nature- This is perhaps the most important aspect. Saiyans, up until Dragonball Minus, were evil and sadistic in nature. In the same ways that the LSSJ takes the saiyans' natural power to its MAXIMUM :D, It also seems to magnify its cruel and sadistic nature.

In this way the LSSJ is not a true character, much like the Hulk is a deeper critique of what dwells inside men. LSSJ is more akin to a force of nature and the Saiyan race personified by it power and cruel evil nature. The character Broly, being merely a vessel for this raw force to act through.

Why does this make it a masterpiece?

First and foremost the SSJ transformation was a form Vegeta prided himself on believing he was destined to achieve. While he eventually achieved it, it was after he believed Goku had obtained it. Once the realization that he could also obtain it, he believed he would be the strongest saiyan alive. During this particular time period Vegeta still heavily embraced Saiyan nature and tendencies, he valued strength and brutality over the love and companionship which Goku embraced as a saiyan. In fact when he was told by Paragus that there would be a New Planet Vegeta, Vegeta jumped at the opportunity to once again embrace and establish his saiyan heritage.

However, when he came face to face with the true raw nature of Saiyans he cowered in fear. The raw unbridled Saiyan power and rage, the very nature of saiyans personified was even enough to terrify the Prince who celebrated the power and cruelty of his own race. It was the first time, in my opinion, that Vegeta saw saiyans and his race for what they truly were.

As a Vegeta fan this is my favorite clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHpkDnOZtCY


Further it took Goku, the only full-blooded saiyan to completely over come his natural saiyan tendencies to fight the raw personification of his own blood. The fight was far more symbolic in that Goku was fighting a part of himself, he was literally fighting the full personification of what was inside of him and not only did he reject it, but he was able to overcome it the same way he first overcame his saiyan heritage as a child, with the support and companionship of those around him and for a purpose greater than himself.

So, in conclusion. The LSSJ and its fight represent a far deeper critique of the saiyans with far more personally meaningful aspects to the characters then any fight I've ever seen in Dragonball. It causes Vegeta to pause and question his very nature of what he's reveled in, it shows a physical representation of the struggle Goku endures as he fights against his very nature. It appeals of so many layers and often feels lost on the vast majority of the fandom. This is of course my opinion but greater significance of what this particular struggle represents for the characters is far more interesting and emotionally charged to me.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:35 pm

The form is great the problem was that it belong to a one-note, two dimensional, lame character. Until now.....

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:46 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:The form is great the problem was that it belong to a one-note, two dimensional, lame character. Until now.....
That's not how other people saw it, I also don't mind Broly not having personality for the reasons listed above. If you had a character which you possibly had empathy for you couldn't be as utter disgusted at the LSSJ which is the most evil powerful living being in the universe. I'd rather the LSSJ be a generic as you can focus your disgust on what being a saiyan represents rather than anything else distracting from that key point.

Broly hatred of Goku is much more symbolic because Goku is the epitome of everything that saiyans are not.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Ki Breaker » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:10 pm

Broly is a great character, yes I like the character as well as the form..
It's awesome we get a lssj girl and hence broly in canon material
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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:22 pm

I actually disliked IT just for Broly because he had like no personality. I hope that female legendary super saiyan (yeah, not calling her female broly as the only thing she shares with him so far is the transformation), ends up being an interesting character in a similar way to BURAKKU.

I mean, i understand what you mean but........ that's just me.
Last edited by dbs fanboy on Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:23 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:Broly is a great character, yes I like the character as well as the form..
It's awesome we get a lssj girl and hence broly in canon material
Exactly, it's great what they did with the 15-20 minutes of total screentime he got. I expect the theme of rejecting saiyan nature to be explored more in depth with this new character due to the seemingly extreme contrast between herself and the form. Plus they'd have a ton more time to really dive into it and really lay out some of these concepts explicitly so this time it won't fly over the majority of the fandoms heads at 30000 feet.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:27 pm

dbs fanboy wrote:I actually disliked IT just for Broly because he had like no personality. I hope that female legendary super saiyan (yeah, not calling her female broly as the only thing she shares with him so far is the transformation), ends up being an interesting character in a similar way to BURAKKU.
I understand the complaint but for a 45 minute movie I would assume they wouldn't want him to be anything other than the LSSJ. The other movies were garbage btw and further ruined the character. The character from the way it's presented was suppose to have no true identity of his own other than being the LSSJ.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:40 pm

TheMikado wrote:
dbs fanboy wrote:I actually disliked IT just for Broly because he had like no personality. I hope that female legendary super saiyan (yeah, not calling her female broly as the only thing she shares with him so far is the transformation), ends up being an interesting character in a similar way to BURAKKU.
The other movies were garbage btw and further ruined the character.
Probably this is what made me hate Broly (and his fanbase). Which is way this time i want to see the LSSJ with actual personality, just to have some fresh air.
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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by emi_b7 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:44 pm

TheMikado wrote:
dbs fanboy wrote:I actually disliked IT just for Broly because he had like no personality. I hope that female legendary super saiyan (yeah, not calling her female broly as the only thing she shares with him so far is the transformation), ends up being an interesting character in a similar way to BURAKKU.
I understand the complaint but for a 45 minute movie I would assume they wouldn't want him to be anything other than the LSSJ. The other movies were garbage btw and further ruined the character. The character from the way it's presented was suppose to have no true identity of his own other than being the LSSJ.
This is 100% true IMO. The first Broly movie was good and, for a 45' movie where he had to share the spotlight with Paragus, he was a fine character too. The second movie is a disgrace and the third one is barely a Broly movie (it shouldn't have been one IMO).

Anyway, I don't really care all that much about the form and how it looks, but having someone else be the true SSJ from the legends and not Goku was a great idea. Not making him the chosen one makes Goku's story better. That stupid Bardock special shat on this idea and it's a shame.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:59 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:The form is great the problem was that it belong to a one-note, two dimensional, lame character. Until now.....
That's not how other people saw it, I also don't mind Broly not having personality for the reasons listed above. If you had a character which you possibly had empathy for you couldn't be as utter disgusted at the LSSJ which is the most evil powerful living being in the universe. I'd rather the LSSJ be a generic as you can focus your disgust on what being a saiyan represents rather than anything else distracting from that key point.

Broly hatred of Goku is much more symbolic because Goku is the epitome of everything that saiyans are not.
First of no he dose not represent what the saiyans are or what they value. That was saiyan saga Vegeta, saiyans a brutal and savage but they are also warriors not mindless monsters like Broly. Thats why Goku's clash with him are so meaningful, Vegeta is the living embodiment of the bigotry inherent in saiyan culture and the idea of might makes right. Broly is about as representative of saiyans as Goku is.

If you really wont a mindless beast to represent the evil of the saiyan race then just look to Oozaru. Which once again was implemented and better used with Vegeta.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:23 pm

emi_b7 wrote: Paragus, he was a fine character too.
Here I do agree Paragus was great and Broly as a conspet is great but his execution....not so much. Ideas and consepts are no substituent for actually character.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:26 pm

If Broly ends up being mentioned that would be crazy!

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:30 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:The form is great the problem was that it belong to a one-note, two dimensional, lame character. Until now.....
That's not how other people saw it, I also don't mind Broly not having personality for the reasons listed above. If you had a character which you possibly had empathy for you couldn't be as utter disgusted at the LSSJ which is the most evil powerful living being in the universe. I'd rather the LSSJ be a generic as you can focus your disgust on what being a saiyan represents rather than anything else distracting from that key point.

Broly hatred of Goku is much more symbolic because Goku is the epitome of everything that saiyans are not.
First of no he dose not represent what the saiyans are or what they value. That was saiyan saga Vegeta, saiyans a brutal and savage but they are also warriors not mindless monsters like Broly. Thats why Goku's clash with him are so meaningful, Vegeta is the living embodiment of the bigotry inherent in saiyan culture and the idea of might makes right. Broly is about as representative of saiyans as Goku is.

If you really wont a mindless beast to represent the evil of the saiyan race then just look to Oozaru. Which once again was implemented and better used with Vegeta.
Which is unfortunately wrong on both counts saiyans were far far far from honorable warriors as we can see when going through their history and subjugating the weak. Further we can see that they considered their oozaru form the ultimate form and the description of SSJ is similar. The description of Herns translates details on some of his work states the Super saiyan is "ruthless" and "Love destruction and battle" "savage". These are many of the words used to describe the Super saiyan. So yes more savage and destructive a saiyan was the more "saiyan" they were. Even the idea of having a nobility is a completely new concept in Saiyan history established by King Vegeta so no, the idea of bigotry and classism is not a long standing tradition of saiyan culture at all.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:31 pm

Xeztin wrote:If Broly ends up being mentioned that would be crazy!
That's my prediction, that Broly gets canonized the same way that Tarble did.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:48 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
That's not how other people saw it, I also don't mind Broly not having personality for the reasons listed above. If you had a character which you possibly had empathy for you couldn't be as utter disgusted at the LSSJ which is the most evil powerful living being in the universe. I'd rather the LSSJ be a generic as you can focus your disgust on what being a saiyan represents rather than anything else distracting from that key point.

Broly hatred of Goku is much more symbolic because Goku is the epitome of everything that saiyans are not.
First of no he dose not represent what the saiyans are or what they value. That was saiyan saga Vegeta, saiyans a brutal and savage but they are also warriors not mindless monsters like Broly. Thats why Goku's clash with him are so meaningful, Vegeta is the living embodiment of the bigotry inherent in saiyan culture and the idea of might makes right. Broly is about as representative of saiyans as Goku is.

If you really wont a mindless beast to represent the evil of the saiyan race then just look to Oozaru. Which once again was implemented and better used with Vegeta.
Which is unfortunately wrong on both counts saiyans were far far far from honorable warriors as we can see when going through their history and subjugating the weak. Further we can see that they considered their oozaru form the ultimate form and the description of SSJ is similar. The description of Herns translates details on some of his work states the Super saiyan is "ruthless" and "Love destruction and battle" "savage". These are many of the words used to describe the Super saiyan. So yes more savage and destructive a saiyan was the more "saiyan" they were. Even the idea of having a nobility is a completely new concept in Saiyan history established by King Vegeta so no, the idea of bigotry and classism is not a long standing tradition of saiyan culture at all.
But thats were I have to disagree with you. I do not mean in any way that the saiyans were honorable, they are more like barbarians then say knight or samurai. But the race had a culture, they had a society, rules and laws. they didn't spend all their time killing and rampaging about the place. They also formed warrior bonds with one another and had a sense of pride, be it a very stilted one.

Broly on the other hand is a psychopath, a blood thirsty monster who will not stop his senseless destruction. Saying he represents saiyans is like saying a serial killer represents humans.

I think I was being a bit to harsh with my words....Broly and and the LSS form are the embodiment of the super saiyan legend. What all U7 saiyans wish they could be, hell i bet their are a lot of human warriors who wanted to be something like that. So what I mean is Broly is what saiyans aspire to be but not what they are as a race.

And I do like Broly in consept and he is fun to watch but he is just to bland a character. Ok I'm gonna get it in the neck for saying this but Second Comeing Broly is actually my preferred Broly. I like him because he is truly insane, an unstoppable, rampaging super saiyan who lives to kill, destroy and make others suffer. It as if his power is to much for even himself to control. Movie 1 Broly was this in Paragus's flash back and thats what I wanted but for the rest of the film he's juts too well normal if that makes sense. It makes him less interesting for me.

Thats why I liked the teaser. This FemBroly looked scared before she changed and them seemed wild and out of control.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:07 pm

As much a I am apathetic towards Broly's character, I will say this his gimmick of the Legendary Super Saiyan is something very unique to the franchise and something that really should have been explained more beyond being just another convenient power up for the bad guy. I hope Super can do more with the concept, but I'm kinda expecting them to drop the ball with it.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by nickzambuto » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:04 pm

Wow! What a cool interpretation! This is the kind of stuff I come on kanzenshuu for, Dragon Ball is so under appreciated from a literary/cultural point of view. It's actually really damn smart sometimes. But what's with these responses here? Did people not even read the OP? It seems people are so wrapped up in their utter hate of Broli that they've become incapable of looking at things from any new perspective. They're completely missing the point of this thread.

I wish I had something to add, but I don't. OP covered everything. Broli's presumed placement in the timeline (right before the Cell Games) furthers Vegeta's already great character arc, and the fact that Goku only overcame the personification of saiyans through the help of his friends is clever stuff. All the sudden I think Broli and movie 8 are fantastic entries to the series, haha.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by manwolf » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:49 pm

No, Broly is an example of a chosen one elected for evil, but with zero motivation unless you count his desire to kill Goku, no because he interfere with his plan or some kind of legend, no he wants to kill Goku because he cries as a baby, and he are controlled by his father, the guy with the real plan.

As a concept that a chosen one are evil is interesting, and unless you count the crying Broly beginning is interesting, a legendary saiyan that is feared by the king of saiyans and he tries to kill the baby.

I think that with no apparent legend in between, this form is better to be another kind of transformation like the grades or trunks form in super.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:37 pm

manwolf wrote:No, Broly is an example of a chosen one elected for evil, but with zero motivation unless you count his desire to kill Goku, no because he interfere with his plan or some kind of legend, no he wants to kill Goku because he cries as a baby, and he are controlled by his father, the guy with the real plan.

As a concept that a chosen one are evil is interesting, and unless you count the crying Broly beginning is interesting, a legendary saiyan that is feared by the king of saiyans and he tries to kill the baby.

I think that with no apparent legend in between, this form is better to be another kind of transformation like the grades or trunks form in super.
But you're missing the point of what I said, Broly isn't a character, he's a force of nature. An avatar for the essence of the saiyan race. He has no more motivation than a hurricane or a tornado he pure destruction. They just needed an excuse for him to zero in on Goku that's it.
If this were the cartoon the avatar this would be like aang fully accepting his only purpose is to be the avatar and basically going into a permanent avatar state and walled up in a prison waiting for the next time to be activated. It's a crazy sick concept and it's really amazing.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Cipher » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:05 pm

Broli is a fun villain and I'll stand by that. He's free of the gimmicks and color Dragon Ball villains usually possess. Having an out-and-out human-appearing sadist, complete with a grim backstory (he's basically just an inherently terrible person who's been abused by everyone around him to boot), is genuinely unnerving. At least in Movie 8. His later appearances are more camp, but that's fine. If any villain had to make a return in the movies, I don't mind it being Broli.

But the "legendary Super Saiyan" concept is kind of ... neither here nor there. It serves to make him physically imposing. I'm whatever on lifting the concept, as I don't feel there's much to it. I really want the new Super character to actually be Broli in name, because I think that'd be a hilarious bit of subversion, rather than just a new Saiyan character borrowing a movie transformation that never felt like it had a reason to be used anywhere else. Still funny, but come on. Just call a Broli a Broli.

I hope this girl introduces herself as Broli, the characters make no reference to encountering the movie villain, and we simply move forward with this as the Super version of the character and leave all the winking meta-elements implicit.
TheMikado wrote:But you're missing the point of what I said, Broly isn't a character, he's a force of nature. An avatar for the essence of the saiyan race. He has no more motivation than a hurricane or a tornado he pure destruction.
I think he totally has character, and that's what lets him work. He's docile under his father's control (and there's a bit of a back and forth on who the real villain is in Movie 8; at first Paragus seems abusive, but then you learn Broli was always dangerous and unpredictable), but free from it, he's the kind of creep who says he's "the devil" and enjoys wanton killing. And not in the either the supervillainous, goal-oriented or cosmically evil way of the manga villains. He's just a sadist who likes hurting people and being cruel. He's legitimately scary, as far as Dragon Ball goes, in his first appearance.
Last edited by Cipher on Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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