LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:49 pm

manwolf wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Right so again you miss the character analysis that Broly himself is not really a character.
A character analysis of a non-character, this is absolutely logical. That a transformation is the focus of a character and not a medium to expand his plot is bad writing and if we use Broly transformation is worse.

Broly is a character with a genetic disorder that the disorder is all the characteristics about his personality, in other characters this situation are called bad writing, why broly are different, yeah a villain needs to be powerful, but the villain need to have other characteristics. For example a lot of villains kill people in cold blood, in scenes that are significant to the plot, Broly with his disorder cannot have this type of scenes, Broly is a monster, a powerful monster but only a monster.
You summed it up exactly correctly. He's a monster. Do we criticize the original Godzilla for not having a personality? Not because he was a representation of nuclear war and its dangers. What about Edgar Allen Poes raven? What about Mary shellys Frankenstein monster? Heck more recently did we criticize the monster from clover field as being bland and lacking motive? Come on, you complaint is that he's not a character like a traditional villain and my argument is that is exactly why he's so unique. Broly is more akin to Kid Buu than any other villain but far more imposing and sinister. Broly is a force of nature just as Godzilla was also characterized as such, just like the Trex or the velociraptors in original Jurassic Park. Maybe your hang up is it being in a humanoid form but the same principles apply.

Broly is not supposed to be or have a character, but it feels like that point is being continually lost in the conversation.

To make my point even more clear using your own terminology, Movie 8 is basically a monster movie.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by manwolf » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:41 pm

No, Broly is not a monster in the kaiju sense or in the terror sense. Broly is a human, he was born a human, he has some personality, he is a deranged man but a man not some kind of abstract representation like a kaiju.

If the authors wants Broly to be a monster or some abstract representation they show us an alien character, someone that we cannot understand by some motive.

I think that Broly is destined to be the legendary super saiyan, as the original guy of the legend, but the environment corrupt Broly, King Vegeta try to kill Broly, Freeza try to kill Broly, Goku cries in his crib and Paragus uses Broly almost all of his life. Broly hates goku for a petty reason but he hates goku for a reason his action aren't they ways of an animal or a force of nature, her action are the actions of a deranged man.

Even her powers have an explanation, her own father suppress her power almost all of her life, when her father can control her own power, the powers overflows, and even Broly cannot control her own powers.

Yeah Broly are akin to boo and Piccolo Daimaou, in the sense that they become evil because the evil of the others, but Piccolo and Buu are more abstract representation of evil, they absorbs the evil of the others and become evil, when Broly have definite motives to become evil.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:58 pm

Except he is treated exactly like any other monster movie, his finally appearance they even take the point home by making him look like a monster. They literally say MONSTER multiple times in the dubs. I'm not sure how much more clear cut it can be of how many more hints the author needs to drop. Again you're hung up on him being in humanoid form but literally nothing he's done since birth has been human. As an infant he was capable of feats no child could and did it subconsciously. It literally showed from birth how his power superseded his humanity. Any other child would have perished even if they were as stronger as Broly because they are still an infant, his power literally took over his body and instincts as a child to formulate a means for self preservation. Broly did not save himself, his power did and overrides his own humanity. You seem to be missing the point the author is making is that that IS his identity. Even as a child he has no personality whatsoever because his power overrides that humanity.

Again, just because he is in a humanoid form doesn't mean he's human in the traditional sense. Further your assertion that if they want to show an abstract representation they use an alien is really bizarre considering Saiyans aren't humans they're aliens to start with.

I mean again they literally turned him into a monster physically to correspond with his behavior and it drives the point home pretty clearly. How many more hints do you need?

Image

Further:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x1imyedu2DQ
"You're not just fighting a saiyan, you're fighting a monster.."

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Asura » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:07 pm

Don't know if it was said yet, but honestly I just really dislike it because of its name. What does the "Legendary Super Saiyan" even mean? When Super Saiyan was first being talked about on Namek, it was referred to sometimes as the "Legendary Super Saiyan" or the "Legend of the Super Saiyan".

Who even is the Legendary Super Saiyan? Is it Bardock who supposedly was like, the first Super Saiyan, therefore starting the "legend" of the Super Saiyan? Is it Goku who also has it referred to as the legend of the super saiyan/legendary super saiyan? Or is it Broly who has a form which is literally called "Legendary Super Saiyan" that is different than Super Saiyan...

It's all really confusing, and it's why a form that starts with an adjective isn't a very good name. I could make up a new form called "The Amazing Super Saiyan" in the same vein, but that just sounds like a really weird name for a form, doesn't it?

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:11 pm

Asura wrote:Don't know if it was said yet, but honestly I just really dislike it because of its name. What does the "Legendary Super Saiyan" even mean? When Super Saiyan was first being talked about on Namek, it was referred to sometimes as the "Legendary Super Saiyan" or the "Legend of the Super Saiyan".

Who even is the Legendary Super Saiyan? Is it Bardock who supposedly was like, the first Super Saiyan, therefore starting the "legend" of the Super Saiyan? Is it Goku who also has it referred to as the legend of the super saiyan/legendary super saiyan? Or is it Broly who has a form which is literally called "Legendary Super Saiyan" that is different than Super Saiyan...

It's all really confusing, and it's why a form that starts with an adjective isn't a very good name. I could make up a new form called "The Amazing Super Saiyan" in the same vein, but that just sounds like a really weird name for a form, doesn't it?
It was pretty much a response to Super saiyan becoming so common place in the series. Basically making it seem as if it's the REAL LSSJ form, they even took the brutal nature of the legend. This is a Toei creation for movie8 only and the form was not considered a canon transformation, that is until recently where it may make its way into Super making the LSSJ the real genuine LSSJ form... at least that's what maybe happening.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Asura » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:17 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Asura wrote:Don't know if it was said yet, but honestly I just really dislike it because of its name. What does the "Legendary Super Saiyan" even mean? When Super Saiyan was first being talked about on Namek, it was referred to sometimes as the "Legendary Super Saiyan" or the "Legend of the Super Saiyan".

Who even is the Legendary Super Saiyan? Is it Bardock who supposedly was like, the first Super Saiyan, therefore starting the "legend" of the Super Saiyan? Is it Goku who also has it referred to as the legend of the super saiyan/legendary super saiyan? Or is it Broly who has a form which is literally called "Legendary Super Saiyan" that is different than Super Saiyan...

It's all really confusing, and it's why a form that starts with an adjective isn't a very good name. I could make up a new form called "The Amazing Super Saiyan" in the same vein, but that just sounds like a really weird name for a form, doesn't it?
It was pretty much a response to Super saiyan becoming so common place in the series. Basically making it seem as if it's the REAL LSSJ form, they even took the brutal nature of the legend. This is a Toei creation for movie8 only and the form was not considered a canon transformation, that is until recently where it may make its way into Super making the LSSJ the real genuine LSSJ form... at least that's what maybe happening.
But still, it's just sticking an adjective in front of it and calling it a day. Even worse is that this adjective has been used to describe the regular Super Saiyan transformation before!

This is going to be an incredibly dumb example, but just stick with me.

Imagine, if when the Super Saiyan form was first being talked about and introduced, Vegeta was just like "Yeah, it's a really cool form. The Super Saiyan is really cool." and then after Goku transforms into it, Gohan is just like "Woah dad, that's a really cool transformation. Super Saiyans are really cool!"

All of a sudden, the Broly movie hits, and his form is called "The Really Cool Super Saiyan". Now, it's not your regular super saiyan, since it's really cool...even though I just used the words "really cool" to describe the regular super saiyan a minute ago...

What a clusterfuck.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:31 pm

Umm that's actually exactly what happened with the exception that everyone said the "really cool" form didn't actually exist for the past 20 years because it didn't come from the author. Now 20 years late reply it looks like it may actually be a thing the author creates now so now you have to acknowledge that the really cool form actually exists and the previously cool form for the past 20 years was never the actual really cool form Beheta was talking about.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Asura » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:47 pm

TheMikado wrote:Umm that's actually exactly what happened with the exception that everyone said the "really cool" form didn't actually exist for the past 20 years because it didn't come from the author. Now 20 years late reply it looks like it may actually be a thing the author creates now so now you have to acknowledge that the really cool form actually exists and the previously cool form for the past 20 years was never the actual really cool form Beheta was talking about.
Err, you kind of lost me. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me that the name is stupid, or disagreeing...or talking about something else completely different, but my main point is that the name is terrible and confusing.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:40 am

Asura wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Umm that's actually exactly what happened with the exception that everyone said the "really cool" form didn't actually exist for the past 20 years because it didn't come from the author. Now 20 years late reply it looks like it may actually be a thing the author creates now so now you have to acknowledge that the really cool form actually exists and the previously cool form for the past 20 years was never the actual really cool form Beheta was talking about.
Err, you kind of lost me. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me that the name is stupid, or disagreeing...or talking about something else completely different, but my main point is that the name is terrible and confusing.
If its the word "Legendary" you don't like, I'm not sure what to say. It could easily been replaced with words like "Hyper", "Mega" "Ultra", etc. Its not like the word "Super" is particularly unique and has a certain level of camp to it.

If you're referring to its usage being the problem, that's due to its history.

The original concept of a Super Saiyan was intended to be Goku, however after continuing the series Super Saiyan began being granted to all the saiyans. This in many people's eyes made the transformation far less special and "legendary".
Toei, came up with the concept of their being a "True" Legendary saiyan. One where the form isn't achieved but is granted at birth. In this process they also took aspects of the legend and built their character primarily around that premise.

The problem is fans for years argued that the LSSJ form (Broly), was not "canon" as it did not come from Toriyama and was illegitimate as a form. Then, years later we get the Bardock movie which, with its time traveling shenanigans seems to imply Bardock is actually the original super saiyan of legend. This one is particularly weird as it seems to create a casual time loop as Frieza's destruction of the saiyans was from fear of the legend of the super saiyan, but Bardock's "death" sent him back in time to start the legend to begin with. It's really weird because it doesn't seem to line up with Toriyama's view of time travel. It's even more perplexing because it seems to be canon due to Dragonball Minus, both were created over a decade after the original run. This caused much concern over what is considered "canon" and it seems Toriyama "canonized" this story of Bardock. The finally we have 2016/2017 where the previously "illegitimate" LSSJ may now be canonized. The argument is that GT much like the movies were not directly written by Toriyama and should not be considered "canon", further that Super is the "official" continuation of the Dragonball series and thus everything in it should be considered canon and legitimate at least according to a large portion of the fanbase. This is what is causing the dissonance across the forums around the new reveal. By the standard measure of "canonicity" the LSSJ should not exist in the dragonball universe and for the past 20 years hardcore fans have been justified in recognizing Goku as the legendary SSJ. The problem is we now how not only another possible candidate in Bardock, but that the Super Saiyan form we've had may not even be the "true" Legendary form. So yes, its confusing but mostly due to the concept of what is canon and what is not.

If, and this is an IF. If Super reveals that LSSJ is indeed a form and granted at birth, then that will retroactively make both Bardock and Goku illegitimate candidates for the title 20 years later after the in-universe lore had been established for decades.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Basaku » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:36 pm

Never liked it, mostly from design POV. White eyes + idiotic grin + overbulked = the character in LSSJ form appears (and acts) mentally challenged.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:13 pm

Basaku wrote:Never liked it, mostly from design POV. White eyes + idiotic grin + overbulked = the character in LSSJ form appears (and acts) mentally challenged.
I would only argue that stating he appears and acts mentally challenged is a bit offensive. But from a design perspective I can understand why you may dislike him, I always hated Frieza, Buu, and Kid Buus design.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by manwolf » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:34 pm

Broly is a saiyan, so he is a human unless the author say otherwise. You say that Broly's power use his body in some way but Broly in the first two movies are conscious of his acts, he is not a mindless slave of his power he uses like any other super saiyan, Broly can even control his own transformation so is not like Broly is some kind of avatar of her own power.

Yeah Bio-Broly is mindless monster, but he is a mutated clone of Broly, more deranged and with no capacity of mind, but not because he is an avatar of her own power but because he is a clone, not the real Broly.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by Gog » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:06 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Basaku wrote:Never liked it, mostly from design POV. White eyes + idiotic grin + overbulked = the character in LSSJ form appears (and acts) mentally challenged.
I would only argue that stating he appears and acts mentally challenged is a bit offensive. But from a design perspective I can understand why you may dislike him, I always hated Frieza, Buu, and Kid Buus design.
:shock: You hated Freeza, Buu's, and Kid Buu's design. I didn't even think that was possible... First off which Freeza, if it's finial form I may need to crucify you for you sins. But those are your opinions, and as the old saying goes, different strokes for different folks... I will admit however that I don't like Broly's design. He's just too overly muscular, and massive.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:17 pm

In terms of coolness:
SSRose > SSBlue > SSGod > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Grade 2 > Grade 3 > SSRage > False SSJ > LSSJ

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:39 am

Gog wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Basaku wrote:Never liked it, mostly from design POV. White eyes + idiotic grin + overbulked = the character in LSSJ form appears (and acts) mentally challenged.
I would only argue that stating he appears and acts mentally challenged is a bit offensive. But from a design perspective I can understand why you may dislike him, I always hated Frieza, Buu, and Kid Buus design.
:shock: You hated Freeza, Buu's, and Kid Buu's design. I didn't even think that was possible... First off which Freeza, if it's finial form I may need to crucify you for you sins. But those are your opinions, and as the old saying goes, different strokes for different folks... I will admit however that I don't like Broly's design. He's just too overly muscular, and massive.
Yes, the small whinny, unimposing brat angle got old for me. Frieza was a small spoiled brat who literally called his Dad to come beat up the kid on the playground after he picked a fight and lost. Ugh, for me personally that is so unbecoming of a villain. The voice and more feminine appearance didn't help at all in his final form. I was actually fine with Frieza's other forms though. As for Buu, his fat and kid buu variants had that unimposing and childish personality which was really grating. Most of the time during the fight it felt like Goku/Vegeta were really just annoyed more than actually overwhelmed. That was a true tension killer for me.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:00 am

manwolf wrote:Broly is a saiyan, so he is a human unless the author say otherwise. You say that Broly's power use his body in some way but Broly in the first two movies are conscious of his acts, he is not a mindless slave of his power he uses like any other super saiyan, Broly can even control his own transformation so is not like Broly is some kind of avatar of her own power.

Yeah Bio-Broly is mindless monster, but he is a mutated clone of Broly, more deranged and with no capacity of mind, but not because he is an avatar of her own power but because he is a clone, not the real Broly.
Except Broly's body in the very first movie literally begins to crack and explode from a punch. That is NOT normal saiyan/human physiology. We haven't seen any other saiyan die like this and further drives home the point of being a vessel for the LSSJ power. The creators of the movie dropped about a million hints as to what Broly is symbolically. Its basically showing Goku "break" the container of Broly's body which houses the LSSJ power and we see multiple times where Broly's body seems to be shredded from the inside out as he transforms. Again NOT a normal function of saiyan biology at all. His BODY does not function like a saiyans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IWllHU-vBA

Further in the third movie they drive the point home by not only having his body literally melt with something inside him still pulsating, but also have him reform himself from the culture liquid as a giant Kaiju. The point it's emphasizing is that Broly is not the body or the character its the power of the LSSJ which is the driving and antagonistic force. The literally do not need Broly at all as can be seen with the kaiju form to have LSSJ be a threat. As I've repeatly said, the threat itself is LSSJ and Broly is merely the vessel through which its works. Goku/Vegeta, even 100x stronger than Broly would not exhibit the same biology response. They would melt from the liquid and just be dead like any other organism. Broly literally does not function like any living creature because as I said, the LSSJ form is a force of some kind of the universe. It grants special powers and abilities which exceed and overrule normal saiyan biology. From birth Broly was an unfortunate carrier of this force, a shell of a person who was engulfed by it and fully succumbs to its power. Broly is far more of a tragic figure than any villain we've seen in Dragonball with the exception of possibly Vegeta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eujhvNSveUk

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by momoRX » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:31 am

Eh, LSSJ is just green Super Saiyan Grade 3 and I think you're giving it way too much credit for what it is.
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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by rereboy » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:41 pm

momoRX wrote:Eh, LSSJ is just green Super Saiyan Grade 3 and I think you're giving it way too much credit for what it is.
Clearly, it's not just that.

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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by TKA » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:42 pm

rereboy wrote:
momoRX wrote:Eh, LSSJ is just green Super Saiyan Grade 3 and I think you're giving it way too much credit for what it is.
Clearly, it's not just that.
It is just that with arbitrary power levels slapped onto it.
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Re: LSSJ Form... Has always been a literary masterpiece

Post by rereboy » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:46 pm

TKA wrote:
rereboy wrote:
momoRX wrote:Eh, LSSJ is just green Super Saiyan Grade 3 and I think you're giving it way too much credit for what it is.
Clearly, it's not just that.
It is just that with arbitrary power levels slapped onto it.
There are plenty of arguments in this topic and others for why he is not. The problem with Broly is that fans will almost always try to simply dismiss him if they don't like him, and other fans will try hype him up if they like him... and both groups will accuse the other of doing it. Personally, I try to see beyond all that.

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