Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be (at a BP of) 10?

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Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be (at a BP of) 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:52 pm

That's way too weak. A fat, out of shape farmer was already 5, Goku's only twice as strong as that? He was able to tank bullets and lift a 1 ton+ car overhead and throw it from an unfavorable position. I refuse to believe his power level is only twice as high as the average human.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:54 pm

Power levels don't work for the earlier stuff. That's the only real answer I can give, hence why I don't bother making PLs or even think about them pre-Raditz. It doesn't help that you have to fit them into levels below 400.
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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:56 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Power levels don't work for the earlier stuff. That's the only real answer I can give, hence why I don't bother making PLs or even think about them pre-Raditz. It doesn't help that you have to fit them into levels below 400.
It's pretty easy if you just assume that Piccolo telling Goku he was only using half his power was just him being hyperbolic or referring to his technique rather than his ki itself.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by flashback0180 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:03 pm

Mercenary tao died by a standard grenade , while Red Ribbon saga goku tanked rocket launchers to the face , power levels mean nothing.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:21 pm

flashback0180 wrote:Mercenary tao died by a standard grenade , while Red Ribbon saga goku tanked rocket launchers to the face , power levels mean nothing.
He didn't die from it. Also, that was after he got his ass kicked by Goku so his ki was probably lowered significantly. And it was likely an enhanced grenade.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:22 pm

Think about it like this: How much effort was Toriyama putting into the figures? If you're putting more effort into it, it's never going to make sense.
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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by nickzambuto » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:19 pm

Power levels are such a cool concept so it's no wonder fans are really into them. However, the more time I spend in this type of discussion, the more I realize how unfortunately arbitrary they actually are. I have little doubt that every power level announced in the series proper was made up by Toriyama right on the spot with very little thought put into them. I don't like how they undermine Goku's growth and his accomplishments during the first half of the series, because we apparently need to fit all those characters and all those powerups between 10 and just over 400, and then we have to assume that Goku didn't get any stronger at all during the five year timeskip.

And then look at the absolutely exponential growth characters go through as soon as the concept is introduced. You're telling me Goku got 375,000 times stronger in two arcs of DBZ, which constitute just over a year, but in all of Dragon Ball, which is over 11 years, growing from childhood to adulthood, going through three different masters, Goku only got 40 times stronger? So was he just not putting nearly as much effort in as a child? It's understandable that Goku's growth would increase as his knowledge and spiritual strength increase, but to force the entirety of Dragon Ball in between 10 and 400 is just impossible. There are multiple instances where Goku clearly grew exponentially more powerful. It makes no sense that he was a fly to a mere 50% of old Daimao's power, and then Daimao went from the equivalent of a decrepit 70 year old former athlete to that athlete in his prime when he was benching hundreds of pounds and sprinting a mile in two minutes, only to be weaker than the powered Goku, who in turn gets FLICKED by Kami, and then three years after that Kami can't even perceive Goku. You know what the official power levels on that jump are? In total, Goku only doubled his power. Wow. So the old daimao was barely a fraction stronger than Goku?

It makes no sense, which is very unfortunate for such a cool concept. IMO 1,000 would be a more appropriate number for BoZ Goku, both for the sake of progression as well as in comparison to humanity. He surpassed god, so 1,000 is a nice, large number to showcase that.

It would work narratively too. Since 1,000 is such a striking number, Raditz could announce Goku's power level as that, and we'd all be like "wow Goku is so powerful and cool!" then when Raditz casually knees him like he's nothing it would make Raditz look extremely scary. It would be more impressive than kneeing a mere 300-something, which isn't a very striking number.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by DBZ Macky » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:36 pm

nickzambuto wrote:Power levels are such a cool concept so it's no wonder fans are really into them. However, the more time I spend in this type of discussion, the more I realize how unfortunately arbitrary they actually are. I have little doubt that every power level announced in the series proper was made up by Toriyama right on the spot with very little thought put into them. I don't like how they undermine Goku's growth and his accomplishments during the first half of the series, because we apparently need to fit all those characters and all those powerups between 10 and just over 400, and then we have to assume that Goku didn't get any stronger at all during the five year timeskip.

And then look at the absolutely exponential growth characters go through as soon as the concept is introduced. You're telling me Goku got 375,000 times stronger in two arcs of DBZ, which constitute just over a year, but in all of Dragon Ball, which is over 11 years, growing from childhood to adulthood, going through three different masters, Goku only got 40 times stronger? So was he just not putting nearly as much effort in as a child? It's understandable that Goku's growth would increase as his knowledge and spiritual strength increase, but to force the entirety of Dragon Ball in between 10 and 400 is just impossible. There are multiple instances where Goku clearly grew exponentially more powerful. It makes no sense that he was a fly to a mere 50% of old Daimao's power, and then Daimao went from the equivalent of a decrepit 70 year old former athlete to that athlete in his prime when he was benching hundreds of pounds and sprinting a mile in two minutes, only to be weaker than the powered Goku, who in turn gets FLICKED by Kami, and then three years after that Kami can't even perceive Goku. You know what the official power levels on that jump are? In total, Goku only doubled his power. Wow. So the old daimao was barely a fraction stronger than Goku?

It makes no sense, which is very unfortunate for such a cool concept. IMO 1,000 would be a more appropriate number for BoZ Goku, both for the sake of progression as well as in comparison to humanity. He surpassed god, so 1,000 is a nice, large number to showcase that.

It would work narratively too. Since 1,000 is such a striking number, Raditz could announce Goku's power level as that, and we'd all be like "wow Goku is so powerful and cool!" then when Raditz casually knees him like he's nothing it would make Raditz look extremely scary. It would be more impressive than kneeing a mere 300-something, which isn't a very striking number.
Excellent post. Agree with everything you said.
Especially the last part, perhaps this is why some fans presume Goku's real battle power was 924, i.e. the power level of his Kamehameha?
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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by nickzambuto » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:46 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Power levels are such a cool concept so it's no wonder fans are really into them. However, the more time I spend in this type of discussion, the more I realize how unfortunately arbitrary they actually are. I have little doubt that every power level announced in the series proper was made up by Toriyama right on the spot with very little thought put into them. I don't like how they undermine Goku's growth and his accomplishments during the first half of the series, because we apparently need to fit all those characters and all those powerups between 10 and just over 400, and then we have to assume that Goku didn't get any stronger at all during the five year timeskip.

And then look at the absolutely exponential growth characters go through as soon as the concept is introduced. You're telling me Goku got 375,000 times stronger in two arcs of DBZ, which constitute just over a year, but in all of Dragon Ball, which is over 11 years, growing from childhood to adulthood, going through three different masters, Goku only got 40 times stronger? So was he just not putting nearly as much effort in as a child? It's understandable that Goku's growth would increase as his knowledge and spiritual strength increase, but to force the entirety of Dragon Ball in between 10 and 400 is just impossible. There are multiple instances where Goku clearly grew exponentially more powerful. It makes no sense that he was a fly to a mere 50% of old Daimao's power, and then Daimao went from the equivalent of a decrepit 70 year old former athlete to that athlete in his prime when he was benching hundreds of pounds and sprinting a mile in two minutes, only to be weaker than the powered Goku, who in turn gets FLICKED by Kami, and then three years after that Kami can't even perceive Goku. You know what the official power levels on that jump are? In total, Goku only doubled his power. Wow. So the old daimao was barely a fraction stronger than Goku?

It makes no sense, which is very unfortunate for such a cool concept. IMO 1,000 would be a more appropriate number for BoZ Goku, both for the sake of progression as well as in comparison to humanity. He surpassed god, so 1,000 is a nice, large number to showcase that.

It would work narratively too. Since 1,000 is such a striking number, Raditz could announce Goku's power level as that, and we'd all be like "wow Goku is so powerful and cool!" then when Raditz casually knees him like he's nothing it would make Raditz look extremely scary. It would be more impressive than kneeing a mere 300-something, which isn't a very striking number.
Excellent post. Agree with everything you said.
Especially the last part, perhaps this is why some fans presume Goku's real battle power was 924, i.e. the power level of his Kamehameha?
Yeah, sure, why not? When he took his weights off at the 23ed, he wasn't automatically at his full power. He was around on par with Kami, then throughout the course of the battle with Piccolo, they both powered up until Kami couldn't perceive either of them, and Piccolo claimed he was a thousand times stronger than Kami.

What I'm saying is that even though Raditz read their powers as increasing as soon as the weights were removed, to be consistent with Goku removing his weights at the 23ed, he probably still had room to power up.

Alright, my new headcanon is that Goku's actual power level was over 900. That makes things a little better.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by Gog » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:50 pm

Lets be honest here, were basing the whole entire human's race power level on a farmer who has been doing his job for years. Meaning that he is stronger than most average people. Also honestly who was to say that Bulma's gun wasn't actually a gun. Also it was stated if Goku was hit by a point blank shot gun, he would die.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:11 pm

nickzambuto wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Power levels are such a cool concept so it's no wonder fans are really into them. However, the more time I spend in this type of discussion, the more I realize how unfortunately arbitrary they actually are. I have little doubt that every power level announced in the series proper was made up by Toriyama right on the spot with very little thought put into them. I don't like how they undermine Goku's growth and his accomplishments during the first half of the series, because we apparently need to fit all those characters and all those powerups between 10 and just over 400, and then we have to assume that Goku didn't get any stronger at all during the five year timeskip.

And then look at the absolutely exponential growth characters go through as soon as the concept is introduced. You're telling me Goku got 375,000 times stronger in two arcs of DBZ, which constitute just over a year, but in all of Dragon Ball, which is over 11 years, growing from childhood to adulthood, going through three different masters, Goku only got 40 times stronger? So was he just not putting nearly as much effort in as a child? It's understandable that Goku's growth would increase as his knowledge and spiritual strength increase, but to force the entirety of Dragon Ball in between 10 and 400 is just impossible. There are multiple instances where Goku clearly grew exponentially more powerful. It makes no sense that he was a fly to a mere 50% of old Daimao's power, and then Daimao went from the equivalent of a decrepit 70 year old former athlete to that athlete in his prime when he was benching hundreds of pounds and sprinting a mile in two minutes, only to be weaker than the powered Goku, who in turn gets FLICKED by Kami, and then three years after that Kami can't even perceive Goku. You know what the official power levels on that jump are? In total, Goku only doubled his power. Wow. So the old daimao was barely a fraction stronger than Goku?

It makes no sense, which is very unfortunate for such a cool concept. IMO 1,000 would be a more appropriate number for BoZ Goku, both for the sake of progression as well as in comparison to humanity. He surpassed god, so 1,000 is a nice, large number to showcase that.

It would work narratively too. Since 1,000 is such a striking number, Raditz could announce Goku's power level as that, and we'd all be like "wow Goku is so powerful and cool!" then when Raditz casually knees him like he's nothing it would make Raditz look extremely scary. It would be more impressive than kneeing a mere 300-something, which isn't a very striking number.
Excellent post. Agree with everything you said.
Especially the last part, perhaps this is why some fans presume Goku's real battle power was 924, i.e. the power level of his Kamehameha?
Yeah, sure, why not? When he took his weights off at the 23ed, he wasn't automatically at his full power. He was around on par with Kami, then throughout the course of the battle with Piccolo, they both powered up until Kami couldn't perceive either of them, and Piccolo claimed he was a thousand times stronger than Kami.

What I'm saying is that even though Raditz read their powers as increasing as soon as the weights were removed, to be consistent with Goku removing his weights at the 23ed, he probably still had room to power up.

Alright, my new headcanon is that Goku's actual power level was over 900. That makes things a little better.
I really do wish Toriyama put more effort into power levels, such a great concept ruined by his lack of interest in numbers.

Anyway, there's another explanation for Goku and PIccolo powering up so much when they used attacks: They hadn't yet fully learned how to control their ki, and thus were only able to bring their maximum power out through concentrated attacks, and in some cases push it beyond through excessive charging like with the Makankosappo. After their training under King Kai they'd have learned how to draw out their full power and thus such large amplifications were never again seen in the series.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by Speedster » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:13 pm

If you don't want to admit that power levels are nothing but BS then you at least have to accept that they don’t scale linearly with feats and that their governing function is piece-wise (I would say you have a different function for every 100fold range, 5-500, 500-50K, 50K-5M, etc). For the sub 500 range (or sub 1000 if you like) it makes a lot of sense to talk about highly exponential increases. You had Goku at the start of DB firing a Kamehameha that could bust a car, something that needs 10^6 Joules, yet Roshi and Piccolo with a Ki blast of a power level of 500-1000 could bust the freaking moon something that needs at least 10^29 Joules. So an increase in power level of (at most) 50-100x meant an 100 sextillion x increase in destructive capacity. Then after the 500-1000 mark, we see a much less exponential scaling. Vegeta would blow up the Earth, something that needs 10^32 Joules, with an attack of power level of around 25,000. So in this case a further 25-50x increase in power level meant a further 1000x increase in destructive capacity - no where near the sextillion times we saw earlier. Then you go to first form Freeza with a power level of around 20x bigger than Vegeta's Earth threatening Gallick gun, destroying a planet (planet Vegeta) which needed 10-100x more energy than Earth. As you can see what power level increases actually translate into depends in which range you are in and surely the under 500 range is the range representing the highest increases in actual power for the smallest numerical increases in "power level".
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
flashback0180 wrote:Mercenary tao died by a standard grenade , while Red Ribbon saga goku tanked rocket launchers to the face , power levels mean nothing.
He didn't die from it. Also, that was after he got his ass kicked by Goku so his ki was probably lowered significantly. And it was likely an enhanced grenade.
Well he died in chapter 92 until Trolliyama, 1.5 year later, brought him back as a cyborg in chapter 168. Even then Tao admits he got heavily injured by that grenade. You have to wonder if the military were able to create such powerful grenades why the RRA didn’t use them against Goku when he attacked their headquarters. You also have to wonder why Tao thought that the grenade would work on Goku while his Dondopa failed. By the way, speaking of Taopaipai, in chapter 168 Tao does say that as a cyborg his power increased many times. Which again throws any linear power scaling attempt out of the window.
Strength Checker wrote: Chapter: 168, P2.6
Tao Pai Pai: “To revive myself as a cyborg, I used up all the money I had saved up. But thanks to that, I’ve managed to obtain many times the power I had before.”

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 pm

Speedster wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
flashback0180 wrote:Mercenary tao died by a standard grenade , while Red Ribbon saga goku tanked rocket launchers to the face , power levels mean nothing.
He didn't die from it. Also, that was after he got his ass kicked by Goku so his ki was probably lowered significantly. And it was likely an enhanced grenade.
Well he died in chapter 92 until Trolliyama, 1.5 year later, brought him back as a cyborg in chapter 168. Even then Tao admits he got heavily injured by that grenade. You have to wonder if the military were able to create such powerful grenades why the RRA didn’t use them against Goku when he attacked their headquarters. You also have to wonder why Tao thought that the grenade would work on Goku while his Dondopa failed. By the way, speaking of Taopaipai, in chapter 168 Tao does say that as a cyborg his power increased many times. Which again throws any linear power scaling attempt out of the window.
Strength Checker wrote: Chapter: 168, P2.6
Tao Pai Pai: “To revive myself as a cyborg, I used up all the money I had saved up. But thanks to that, I’ve managed to obtain many times the power I had before.”
Probably grenades are too slow when Goku is already massively hypersonic and capable of dodging lasers. And Tao was most likely just being hyperbolic, it's not unprecedented since in the previous arc Piccolo told Goku he was using only half his power and sometime later PIccolo says he's a thousand times stronger than Kami.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by Speedster » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:01 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Probably grenades are too slow when Goku is already massively hypersonic and capable of dodging lasers.
I think the only actual proper excuse for this whole grenade bullsh*t is to say that the reason it would damage Goku/Tao is because of the speed the grenade was thrown by Taopaipai/Goku as this would make the explosive thrusts move at whatever velocity they would move normally plus the ultra-super-sonic speed of the kick/projection. Much like when Trunks cut Freeza in slices with his sword. It was not the sword. It was Trunks’ input kinetic energy when he wielded sword.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:and sometime later Piccolo says he's a thousand times stronger than Kami.
Piccolo did not compare his strength to Kami's giving numerical values whatsoever. But he did say in chapter 189 that he was many times stronger than he was 3 years earlier. Something with which Goku agreed and said that still he managed to increase his own power a little above Piccolo's. And all this is consistent with:
- the fact that Piccolo was at the time superior to Kami
- Popo said in chapter 164 that “Kami is far, far more incredible” than himself.
- Popo was clearly stronger than Goku who defetated Piccolo Daimao.
- Kami nonchalantly defeated Goku with a mere flick of his finger (like Beerus did with SSJ3 Goku in BoGs)
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Tao was most likely just being hyperbolic, it's not unprecedented since in the previous arc Piccolo told Goku he was using only half his power.
Trying to dismiss these three statements made by Piccolo Daimao, Taopaipai and Piccolo Jr as ‘hyperboles’ reminds me the joke of someone going the wrong way but thinking that it was all the others doing so. Clearly at the time of writing these chapters the intention was that old Piccolo Daimao indeed used less than half of his power/strength to defeat Goku, that Tao’s abilities (strength, etc) increased manifold as a cyborg and that Piccolo' power increased many times after 3 years of training. Also don't forget that kid Goku towards the end of his traning with Karin, was able to make a round climb (ascent and descent) of the tower in 3 hours whilst it took him a full day (24hours) to do so before (here is Toriyama confirming the full day). Which means that even if all 3 hours of the round climb were spent on ascent Goku improved (at least) 8 times after Karin’s training (and that was not even at the very end of his training mind you).

However none of these is actually a problem as long as you can accept that the scouter scale power levels’ correlation with actual strength/power is exponential and piecewise. It is only a problem when you try to impose that every power/strength-related statement is made with the scouter power level scale in mind. Why would the characters/heroes be making power-related statements with the scouter scale in mind? There is no reason for that. We even saw the use of an entirely different scale in the manga – see the kili system for instance.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:08 pm

Speedster wrote: Also don't forget that kid Goku towards the end of his traning with Karin, was able to make a round climb (ascent and descent) of the tower in 3 hours whilst it took him a full day (24hours) to do so before (here is Toriyama confirming the full day). Which means that even if all 3 hours of the round climb were spent on ascent Goku improved 8 times with Karin’s traning (and that was not even at the very end of his training mind you).
Goku after his training with King Kai was able to cross Snake Way in a day whereas he'd taken nearly half a year to do so prior to completing his training. He didn't even get a 20x increase in power level, yet his speed went up nearly 200x. So Kid Goku ascending the tower only 8x faster probably doesn't even translate to a 2x boost.
Speedster wrote: However none of these is actually a problem as long as you can accept that the scouter scale power levels’ correlation with actual strength/power is exponential and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piecewise]piecewise[/url]. It is only a problem when you try to impose that every power/strength-related statement is made with the scouter power level scale in mind. Why would the characters be making power-related statements with the scouter scale in mind? There is no reason for that. We even saw the use of an entirely different scale in the manga – see the kili system for instance.
I suppose it's just a coincidence, then, that the Kaioken is which is stated to multiply your ki corresponds specifically to scouter units.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by Speedster » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:00 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I suppose it's just a coincidence, then, that the Kaioken is which is stated to multiply your ki corresponds specifically to scouter units.
Well, although the Kaioken was shown and stated to multiply the scouter power level by the corresponding multiplier it was never stated to multiply the ki by that multiplier. As a matter of fact, after using Kaioken against Nappa, Goku said in chapter 227 this:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater
Now since the Kaioken that he had just used was later stated by the narrator to multiply the power level by x2 it means that a 2-fold increase in power level results to a many-fold increase in power, speed, destructive force and defensive force.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Goku after his training with King Kai was able to cross Snake Way in a day whereas he'd taken nearly half a year to do so prior to completing his training. He didn't even get a 20x increase in power level, yet his speed went up nearly 200x. So Kid Goku ascending the tower only 8x faster probably doesn't even translate to a 2x boost.
In his original journey Goku needed about 120 days (if you exclude sleeping) to run 1 million km while wearing his weighted clothing (power level of 334) while in his return journey Goku required about 28 hours to travel about 670 thousand km with light clothes (at a power level of 5000 as measured by Vegeta). That is about a 70-fold actual improvement in speed for a 15-fold increase in power level.

In any case both the Karin tower and the snakeway feats prove the same thing. That increasing your scouter power level by x times does not increase your actual abilities by x times but by y times where y>>x. This means there is an exponential relation between power levels and actual strength/speed/etc. However this relationship seems to vary depending on the power level range. For low power levels (below 500) this relationship is highly exponential. For higher power levels (above 500) it is still exponential but much less compared to the sub-500 range.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:27 pm

Speedster wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I suppose it's just a coincidence, then, that the Kaioken is which is stated to multiply your ki corresponds specifically to scouter units.
Well, although the Kaioken was shown and stated to multiply the scouter power level by the corresponding multiplier it was never stated to multiply the ki by that multiplier. As a matter of fact, after using Kaioken against Nappa, Goku said in chapter 227 this:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater
Now since the Kaioken that he had just used was later stated by the narrator to multiply the power level by x2 it means that a 2-fold increase in power level results to a many-fold increase in power, speed, destructive force and defensive force.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Goku after his training with King Kai was able to cross Snake Way in a day whereas he'd taken nearly half a year to do so prior to completing his training. He didn't even get a 20x increase in power level, yet his speed went up nearly 200x. So Kid Goku ascending the tower only 8x faster probably doesn't even translate to a 2x boost.
In his original journey Goku needed about 120 days (if you exclude sleeping) to run 1 million km while wearing his weighted clothing (power level of 334) while in his return journey Goku required about 28 hours to travel about 670 thousand km with light clothes (at a power level of 5000 as measured by Vegeta). That is about a 70-fold actual improvement in speed for a 15-fold increase in power level.

In any case both the Karin tower and the snakeway feats prove the same thing. That increasing your scouter power level by x times does not increase your actual abilities by x times but by y times where y>>x. This means there is an exponential relation between power levels and actual strength/speed/etc. However this relationship seems to vary depending on the power level range. For low power levels (below 500) this relationship is highly exponential. For higher power levels (above 500) it is still exponential but much less compared to the sub-500 range.
In your own quote Goku mentions power along with the other things, therefore he's referring to multipliers above x2 as otherwise his power would not be many times greater. And King Kai specifically tells him not to raise his power over two-fold, this proves that the scouters use the same measurement everyone else does since this 2x increase in power causes Goku's detected power level to rise two-fold. King Kai has no reason to specifically use scouter units which Goku wouldn't even understand if they were different from the system he uses to measure ki.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by Speedster » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:06 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:In your own quote Goku mentions power along with the other things, therefore he's referring to multipliers above x2 as otherwise his power would not be many times greater. And King Kai specifically tells him not to raise his power over two-fold, this proves that the scouters use the same measurement everyone else does since this 2x increase in power causes Goku's detected power level to rise two-fold. King Kai has no reason to specifically use scouter units which Goku wouldn't even understand if they were different from the system he uses to measure ki.
Goku flat out says his power would increase many times with the Kaioken (which Kaioken just doubles the power level). This proves that the term 'power' as used and understood by Goku is not the same thing as the scouter power level. Because in this case the former goes up many times while the latter goes up 2 times. Probably Goku by power means strength or ki or power=energy/time but in any case whatever he means it doesn't scale the same as the scouter power levels.

Now as for the reason the Kaioken multiplier multiplies the scouter power level by the same factor I presume is done for narrative convenience. Much like when everyone in the Dragonball universe somehow speaks the language that is spoken on Earth (and which everyone on Earth speaks too, mind you) and as such our heroes don't need a translator to communicate with aliens, deities, etc. With that in mind I wouldn't be surprised if everyone in the DB universe is made to translate in their heads what a numerical power level increase corresponds in actual strength terms. But it doesn't mean that Goku has to speak like in power level terms when he talks to Kuririn. Much like several aliens don't speak English/Japanese when talk to one another.
Last edited by Speedster on Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:14 pm

Speedster wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:In your own quote Goku mentions power along with the other things, therefore he's referring to multipliers above x2 as otherwise his power would not be many times greater. And King Kai specifically tells him not to raise his power over two-fold, this proves that the scouters use the same measurement everyone else does since this 2x increase in power causes Goku's detected power level to rise two-fold. King Kai has no reason to specifically use scouter units which Goku wouldn't even understand if they were different from the system he uses to measure ki.
Goku flat out says his power would increase many times with the Kaioken (which Kaioken just doubles the power level). This proves that the term 'power' as used and understood by Goku is not the same thing as the scouter power level. Because in this case the former goes up many times while the latter goes up 2 times. Probably Goku by power means strength or ki or power=energy/time but in any case whatever he means it doesn't scale the same as the scouter power levels.

Now as for the reason the Kaioken multiplier multiplies the scouter power level by the same factor I presume is done for narrative convenience. Much like when everyone in the Dragonball universe somehow speaks the language that is spoken on Earth (and which everyone on Earth speaks too, mind you) and as such our heroes don't need a translator to communicate with aliens, deities, etc.
King Kai, Tenshinhan and the narrator all simply use the word power rather than power level when referring to the Kaioken's boost. And Frieza says he's only using 50% of his power, also referring to power level, yet Goku understands exactly what he means.

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Re: Is it really possible for beginning of DB Goku to only be 10?

Post by Speedster » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:51 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:King Kai, Tenshinhan and the narrator all simply use the word power rather than power level when referring to the Kaioken's boost. And Frieza says he's only using 50% of his power, also referring to power level, yet Goku understands exactly what he means.
The narrator used the term battle power. As for the others, during the late Freeza arc, sure enough by that point in the story the narrative used the term ‘power’ to mean ‘battle power’ aka ‘scouter power level’ and simply our heroes could translate these units in their minds in the same way Freeza and the other aliens were conveniently made to understand and speak the Earth’s language. Even Porunga in chapter 329 learned to understand and speak ‘English’ and accept wishes in ‘English’ despite having previously established that you need to speak with him in Namekian.

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