Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

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Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by dragonballer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:34 pm

Goku's "letting his guard down" weakness was ridiculous enough,but now we have him being hurt by a random gunman,didn't they have any better excuse to show that goku was rusty?

Do we have any exemple of sneak attacks being as OP as kiezan in Z ?

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Re: do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by Cipher » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:59 pm

All the time.

Not necessarily for huge damage, but sneak attacks and pinballing a stronger opponent around forms the crux of Kuririn and Piccolo's strategy against Nappa. Piccolo is capable of knocking Freeza away with a sneak attack so Goku can complete the Genki Dama. Trunks and Goten manage to send Boo flying with a sneak attack to save Vegeta. Vegeta's sneak attack against Cell turns the tides for Gohan in their beam struggle.

In the latest Super arc, Black and Zamasu put their teamwork to use to execute several sneak attacks, one of which puts a hole through Goku.

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Re: do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by dragonballer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:10 pm

Cipher wrote:All the time.

Not necessarily for huge damage, but sneak attacks and pinballing a stronger opponent around forms the crux of Kuririn and Piccolo's strategy against Nappa. Piccolo is capable of knocking Freeza away with a sneak attack so Goku can complete the Genki Dama. Trunks and Goten manage to send Boo flying with a sneak attack to save Vegeta. Vegeta's sneak attack against Cell turns the tides for Gohan in their beam struggle.

In the latest Super arc, Black and Zamasu put their teamwork to use to execute several sneak attacks, one of which puts a hole through Goku.
that's why I am comparing sneak attacks with kienzan.The Z exemple doesn't cause huge damage at all,just send the person flying with the momentum,but super exemples...goku can die of tripping on a rock,"oh,that's because he let his guard down."

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Re: do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:12 pm

They've never caused any damage if the opponent was substantially weaker, which is why most people complain, with reason, about the laser scene.

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Re: do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by nickzambuto » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:33 pm

The concept at least has foundation within the main series. We know that characters need to raise their ki consciously in order to use their full strength, and we've seen characters get thrown away by characters who are dozens of times weaker just because they didn't see it coming.

Super takes it to an extreme that creates some inconsistencies, but nothing worth getting mad over. Goku having scratch marks from the bullet didn't effect the story in a dramatic way, and we know that if he was using his power he wouldn't have even had scratch marks, so I don't see a big deal.

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Re: do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by dragonballer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:41 pm

nickzambuto wrote:The concept at least has foundation within the main series. We know that characters need to raise their ki consciously in order to use their full strength, and we've seen characters get thrown away by characters who are dozens of times weaker just because they didn't see it coming.

Super takes it to an extreme that creates some inconsistencies, but nothing worth getting mad over. Goku having scratch marks from the bullet didn't effect the story in a dramatic way, and we know that if he was using his power he wouldn't have even had scratch marks, so I don't see a big deal.
I think super is taking that too extreme. Yes, they need to raise their ki to use full strenght,but not to tank or dodge a bullet,and what about goku's reation time? He said he was rusty,but he has to be very rusty to not being able to dodge a bullet.

characters being thrown away makes sense,since being hit by anything in supersonic speed would do that,the dbz characters can prevent that using their flying power,but they can't use it in time when they are caught by surprise.

So,do you think that guy could have killed goku if goku didn't realize he was being targeted ?

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Re: do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by Totamo » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:46 pm

dragonballer wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:The concept at least has foundation within the main series. We know that characters need to raise their ki consciously in order to use their full strength, and we've seen characters get thrown away by characters who are dozens of times weaker just because they didn't see it coming.

Super takes it to an extreme that creates some inconsistencies, but nothing worth getting mad over. Goku having scratch marks from the bullet didn't effect the story in a dramatic way, and we know that if he was using his power he wouldn't have even had scratch marks, so I don't see a big deal.
I think super is taking that too extreme. Yes, they need to raise their ki to use full strenght,but not to tank or dodge a bullet,and what about goku's reation time? He said he was rusty,but he has to be very rusty to not being able to dodge a bullet.

characters being thrown away makes sense,since being hit by anything in supersonic speed would do that,the dbz characters can prevent that using their flying power,but they can't use it in time when they are caught by surprise.

So,do you think that guy could have killed goku if goku didn't realize he was being targeted ?
Remember, in that same scene Goku was catching bullets.

Then you have gohan's rage boosts which never defeated then enemy did hurt them.

Then you have yajirobe cutting off vegeta's tail.

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Re: do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by dragonballer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:12 pm

Totamo wrote:
dragonballer wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:The concept at least has foundation within the main series. We know that characters need to raise their ki consciously in order to use their full strength, and we've seen characters get thrown away by characters who are dozens of times weaker just because they didn't see it coming.

Super takes it to an extreme that creates some inconsistencies, but nothing worth getting mad over. Goku having scratch marks from the bullet didn't effect the story in a dramatic way, and we know that if he was using his power he wouldn't have even had scratch marks, so I don't see a big deal.
I think super is taking that too extreme. Yes, they need to raise their ki to use full strenght,but not to tank or dodge a bullet,and what about goku's reation time? He said he was rusty,but he has to be very rusty to not being able to dodge a bullet.

characters being thrown away makes sense,since being hit by anything in supersonic speed would do that,the dbz characters can prevent that using their flying power,but they can't use it in time when they are caught by surprise.

So,do you think that guy could have killed goku if goku didn't realize he was being targeted ?
Remember, in that same scene Goku was catching bullets.

Then you have gohan's rage boosts which never defeated then enemy did hurt them.

Then you have yajirobe cutting off vegeta's tail.
Exactly,goku's reation time should be a lot faster than bullets, when goku realised he was being targed,he should be able to stand there and think for a while what to do with that bullet.

Gohan's rage attacks are boosted,not some random weak attack.

Yajirobe's case was a good exemple and that's exactly what I asked for,but then we also have Yajirobe's second sneak attack that only scarred Vegeta.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:26 am

I'd bet Saiyan Arc Piccolo could kill Freeza if he managed to catch him off guard with a Makankosappo.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by mcdjbeatz » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:33 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I'd bet Saiyan Arc Piccolo could kill Freeza if he managed to catch him off guard with a Makankosappo.
Saiyan Arc Piccolo could kill a lot of people with an off guard makankosappo

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by mcdjbeatz » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:51 am

Sneak attacks in Dragon Ball are just like in real life, they work. If a person threw a punch at my stomach then I could tense up and reduce the damage however if I was distracted it would do a lot more damage then if I seen it coming and had time to react, that's why "king hits" to the temple are so deadly you don't see them coming and don't have time to react. Same principle in Dragon Ball, Super Saiyan Trunks would not even be able to budge Majin Buu if he had seen it coming and had his ki at full however Trunks was able to send him flying because Buu was off guard, same thing with Piccolo kicking Frieza, Yajirobe slicing Great Ape Vegeta's tail off, Base Vegeta kicking Android 19 and Meta Cooler away. Sneak attacks can even severely damage the opponent even if the opponent would be immensely stronger than the person who performed the sneak attack, e.g SSJGSSJ Goku being shot with a laser or Base Goku getting shot by a laser in Super.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by dragonballer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:46 pm

mcdjbeatz wrote:Sneak attacks in Dragon Ball are just like in real life, they work. If a person threw a punch at my stomach then I could tense up and reduce the damage however if I was distracted it would do a lot more damage then if I seen it coming and had time to react, that's why "king hits" to the temple are so deadly you don't see them coming and don't have time to react. Same principle in Dragon Ball, Super Saiyan Trunks would not even be able to budge Majin Buu if he had seen it coming and had his ki at full however Trunks was able to send him flying because Buu was off guard, same thing with Piccolo kicking Frieza, Yajirobe slicing Great Ape Vegeta's tail off, Base Vegeta kicking Android 19 and Meta Cooler away. Sneak attacks can even severely damage the opponent even if the opponent would be immensely stronger than the person who performed the sneak attack, e.g SSJGSSJ Goku being shot with a laser or Base Goku getting shot by a laser in Super.
As it was mentioned in the previous posts,save Yajirobe's exemple,all sneak attacks don't cause huge damage at all,otherwise piccolo wouldn't have needed a special attack to hurt Radditz,just a sneak regular blast.

I have already explained why the characters being sent flying makes sense,they are not heavy and every fighter there has enough power to send a mountain flying,the character have to consciously use their power to stay at the place.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by floofychan333 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:55 pm

Sneak attacks certainly work, but they're also equally likely to not work. Any attack, no matter how powerful, can leave the enemy unscathed once and murder the enemy the next time.
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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by Hakaishin Saitama » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:12 pm

... a tiny rock thrown at Goku at low speed managed to make him scream in pain while he was sleeping as a super saiyan - an event that wouldn't even warrant blinking at if he was on guard. Pretty sure we can scale this to full on death from a bullet. Also all the other examples people have given.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:35 pm

Here's my theory:

In Dragon Ball, Kid Goku was hurt and knocked off balance by fireguns but he was never injured, because he still couldn't control his power level and was always walking at full power. Though we know he can't take a shotgun shot in the face.
Later on, he learns from Popo how to control his ki to improve. This means he no is no longer always at full power but he is still walking with a high power level (Raditz detects him with his scouter)
It's only after training with King Kai that Goku gets better at controlling his ki. When he arrives on the battlefield, his power level is 5,000 but he rapidly powers up to 8,000.
Again, when he arrives on Namek he's even better at controlling his ki and he shows it against the Ginyu force.
Fast forward to Trunks, King Cold's soldiers analize his power level which is just 5. At this point everyone can conceal his ki to normal Earthlings standards. It means they can power-up more and with less strain, I think, but it's definitely something better than running at full power, or else why would they bother conceal so much of their power?
In the 2008 special I believe Tarble too read Goku's power as just 5.
So we now know the Z-Fighters are as vulnerable as a farmer when they aren't using their ki. This doesn't mean someone like Krillin can kill Goku from behind, as Goku would quickly power-up sensing Krillin's attack, and would be sent flying at best. But if someone shoots Vegeta at point blank range in his sleep, Vegeta is most likely going to die, unless he goes to sleep with some of his power (if he goes to sleep with a PL of 100 he would be invulnerable to fireguns)

What happens in Super is that Goku not only drops his guard, he drops his ki entirely and, because he's shot by a laser gun which he cannot sense, he goes down. Same as Mai being able to make Black fall on his ass with a sniper shot to his potara. Black was chilling with his friend drinking Tea, he was most likely with his guard completely dropped and with no ki up, so it's possible he might have been damaged or even killed had Mai hit him in the face. The bullet was a powerful one considering a genius like Bulma developed it with the sole purpose of taking Black down. Something like that would never work on Androids/Cyborgs, though, as they are always running at full power (even though their power can't be sensed unless they develop their human ki)
As for sneak attacks, they are entirely different and have always worked the same way. Examples of sneak attacks in Super would be Trunks vs Black in the fight after Vegeta is impaled, and Zamasu kicking Vegeta when he's fighting Black after training in the time chamber. Vegeta wasn't hurt at all, in typical DBZ fashion, though he was sent flying.

In conclusion, sneak attacks are present in both DBZ and DBS. Super just showed us how sneak attacks work on beings with their guard/ki completely dropped.
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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by Hirovoid » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:04 am

Ask Yamcha.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by AvatarReiko » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:25 am

emperior wrote: What happens in Super is that Goku not only drops his guard, he drops his ki entirely
But Goku was still transformed as SSJ blue at the time. If he had dropped his Ki entirely, he would have reverted to base.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by emperior » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:48 am

AvatarReiko wrote:
emperior wrote: What happens in Super is that Goku not only drops his guard, he drops his ki entirely
But Goku was still transformed as SSJ blue at the time. If he had dropped his Ki entirely, he would have reverted to base.
I said Super, which fixed the scene from the movie, even if I thought it was fine in the movie too, because it was never stated Goku can't drop his ki while transformed, considering he did it before the Cell Games when he mastered the form to be as natural as his normal state.
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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by dragonballer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:19 pm

Hakaishin Saitama wrote:... a tiny rock thrown at Goku at low speed managed to make him scream in pain while he was sleeping as a super saiyan - an event that wouldn't even warrant blinking at if he was on guard. Pretty sure we can scale this to full on death from a bullet. Also all the other examples people have given.
It was a filler,they can't stay ssj while sleeping.But we could consider fillers as anime canon,it was a very stupid decision to keep his power bellow 10,imagine goku dying because of a random accident before cell game.
emperior wrote: So we now know the Z-Fighters are as vulnerable as a farmer when they aren't using their ki. This doesn't mean someone like Krillin can kill Goku from behind, as Goku would quickly power-up sensing Krillin's attack, and would be sent flying at best.


It was what I thought too,but that bullet scene ruined everything. Goku realised he was being targeted but he was was not fast enough to power up to 15. Then,someone like Krillin can kill goku from behind since he is far away faster than a bullet.Back then in Z,goku could power up to ssj3 before Buu attack him,and he returned to base in front of Buu while mocking on him,note than Buu is faster than light and he was less than 10 m away from goku.

Chiaotzu's dodonpa and Lunch's machine gun could be the most mortal attacks of DB universe,since nobody knows they exist.

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Re: Do sneak attacks really work in Z?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:36 pm

dragonballer wrote:
Hakaishin Saitama wrote:... a tiny rock thrown at Goku at low speed managed to make him scream in pain while he was sleeping as a super saiyan - an event that wouldn't even warrant blinking at if he was on guard. Pretty sure we can scale this to full on death from a bullet. Also all the other examples people have given.
It was a filler,they can't stay ssj while sleeping.But we could consider fillers as anime canon,it was a very stupid decision to keep his power bellow 10,imagine goku dying because of a random accident before cell game.
emperior wrote: So we now know the Z-Fighters are as vulnerable as a farmer when they aren't using their ki. This doesn't mean someone like Krillin can kill Goku from behind, as Goku would quickly power-up sensing Krillin's attack, and would be sent flying at best.


It was what I thought too,but that bullet scene ruined everything. Goku realised he was being targeted but he was was not fast enough to power up to 15. Then,someone like Krillin can kill goku from behind since he is far away faster than a bullet.Back then in Z,goku could power up to ssj3 before Buu attack him,and he returned to base in front of Buu while mocking on him,note than Buu is faster than light and he was less than 10 m away from goku.

Chiaotzu's dodonpa and Lunch's machine gun could be the most mortal attacks of DB universe,since nobody knows they exist.
Yeah, it's total bullshit that Goku got scraped even though he saw it coming.

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