King Cold can transform

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:26 pm

Gog wrote:Genetics isn't my only argument.
Your other argument is the appearance of the two forms, but surely you can realize how shaky that one is. I decided to pick apart the genetics argument because that's the more solid one.
Gog wrote:But here's the thing Freeza was stated to be 'in strong possession of his father's mutant traits', he wasn't stated to be far more mutated than his father is. The problem with that is that would mean King Cold originally looked liked his second form before he mutated even further beyond too the finial form. The mutation is not different.
But we don't know what those "mutant traits" consist of. They can mean that their body is always changing and in, say, 100 years, Freeza and Cold may look totally different than they do now. It doesn't mean that their body is stuck to look one way. Of course, I'm making assumptions, but so are you, you're inferring a lot of stuff based on a vague line from a Toriyama interview, that's my point.
Gog wrote:We have no idea whenever or not that was just some fancy magic trick, as no Namekian has ever shown the ability to do such a thing but Piccolo Daimo.
They have.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Clear evidence that Namekian reproduction functions asexually and, yet, none of them look the same. Here's a clear example of an alien species in Dragon Ball breaking what we know about biology and genetics.
Gog wrote:Do appearances mean nothing when every finial form in the franchise that has been designed by Akira Toriyama himself, has always had a similar design scheme. And not once has that design scheme been breached or changed once?
I'll be willing to go as far as say that Toriyama may have retconned that aspect of Freeza's species in later installments due to how marketable/iconic his final form is, but I'm not going to go as far as say that the original manga implies what you're arguing for, because that is simply not the case; it implies the exact opposite.
ringworm128 wrote:But we have evidence to back up our "assumption". At worst it's a theory.
It's not a theory either, because 1. it's not "repeated" observation, we have two creatures of Freeza's species in the manga and 2. the Namek example above breaks that observation to pieces.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:44 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Your other argument is the appearance of the two forms, but surely you can realize how shaky that one is. I decided to pick apart the genetics argument because that's the more solid one.
yeah I understand that one as well, that's why it never was my main argument. But I do have three parts to this argument, the third one is Toriyama himself... Also pick apart? A gross exaggeration.

Doctor. wrote: But we don't know what those "mutant traits" consist of. They can mean that their body is always changing and in, say, 100 years, Freeza and Cold may look totally different than they do now. It doesn't mean that their body is stuck to look one way. Of course, I'm making assumptions, but so are you, you're inferring a lot of stuff based on a vague line from a Toriyama interview, that's my point.
That would be a neat theory if every single one of the Freeza Families true form looked different, and every true form presented in the entire series. But they do in fact look similar to one and another. But your making far more assumptions to justify a theory that makes no sense in universe, and what goes against what we've been shown repeatedly, again and again time and time again.

Doctor. wrote: They have.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Clear evidence that Namekian reproduction functions asexually and, yet, none of them look the same. Here's a clear example of an alien species in Dragon Ball breaking what we know about biology and genetics.
Filthy Nameks. But that's what you get from a slug plant. Something radically different from what the Arcosians are.
Doctor. wrote: I'll be willing to go as far as say that Toriyama may have retconned that aspect of Freeza's species in later installments due to how marketable/iconic his final form is, but I'm not going to go as far as say that the original manga implies what you're arguing for, because that is simply not the case; it implies the exact opposite.
Doctor. wrote:
But nothing says that he willingly retconned that aspect, everything points against that. Heck even Coola's design who was made just after the Namek Saga and before the arrivial of Mecha Freeza and King Cold. Looked beat by beat similar to Freeza's true form. But the original manga doesn't imply that's the case.

Also back to appearances, because that I haven't exploited that yet.
Doctor. wrote: Is Lunch a Super Saiyan because she has blonde hair? Is Kaioken a form of Super Saiyan God because it's red? Appearances mean nothing.
Last edited by Gog on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:52 pm

Gog wrote:Huh? That would be a neat theory if every single one of the Freeza Families true form looked different, and every true form presented in the entire series. But they do in fact look similar to one and another. But your making far more assumptions to justify a theory that makes no sense in universe.
Of course it makes no sense, that's the point. We know nothing about Freeza's family to try to assert anything about them. All we have is what the story tells us. And what the story, the manga, tells us is that Freeza was born in his last form and he created his other forms to suppress himself and that king Cold was never stated or implied to have other forms. Nothing else.
Gog wrote:Filthy Nameks. But that's what you get from a slug plant. Something radically different from what the Arcosians are.
Now you're just dismissing evidence.

If we have proof that genetics in Dragon Ball doesn't work the same way it does in our world, then we have no reason to believe it works the same for Freeza's family. You can choose to believe it does, certainly, but I'm no longer obligated to believe it does the moment we have evidence that points to the contrary.
Gog wrote:But nothing says that he willingly retconned that aspect, everything points against that. Heck even Coola's design who was made just after the Namek Saga and before the arrivial of Mecha Freeza and King Cold. Looked beat by beat similar to Freeza's true form. But the original manga doesn't imply that's the case, and your flimsy evidence isn't helping your case.
He doesn't matter if he willingly retconned it, he still retconned it and that's what matters, Toriyama is a forgetful person. Want another example of something he didn't willingly retcon? Look no further than Freeza's shoulder plates, which were just a part of his armor, but were turned into a permanent part of the Freeza race design with DBH and Frost.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:10 pm

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Before we continue I'll be using the son of Freeza, Kuriza, who technically did appear in the manga, and only in the manga.
Doctor. wrote: Of course it makes no sense, that's the point. We know nothing about Freeza's family to try to assert anything about them. All we have is what the story tells us. And what the story, the manga, tells us is that Freeza was born in his last form and he created his other forms to suppress himself and that king Cold was never stated or implied to have other forms. Nothing else.
Okay I'm going to try and reiterate this point. We do know enough about Freeza's family. We have technically seen five of them, but you'll only take three of them. But through Freeza and his son Kuriza we can glimmer that King Cold is in his true form. Also your main argument in the end is we don't know much about them.
Doctor. wrote: Now you're just dismissing evidence.
That part was a joke...
Doctor. wrote: If we have proof that genetics in Dragon Ball doesn't work the same way it does in our world, then we have no reason to believe it works the same for Freeza's family. You can choose to believe it does, certainly, but I'm no longer obligated to believe it does the moment we have evidence that points to the contrary.
And I'll concede on this point. But I will add that Namekians and Arcosians are two different species.

Doctor. wrote: He doesn't matter if he willingly retconned it, he still retconned it and that's what matters, Toriyama is a forgetful person.
He never retconned a thing, because there was simply nothing to retcon with King Cold, and what do you mean Toriyama completely forgot all about how the transformations worked by the time Coola rolled around?

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:11 pm

As far as my stance goes, it's not a matter of whether he technically can or not. He didn't in his one appearance, so for all intents and purposes, he can't. It's a useless distinction to make if there's no indication of it ever actually happening. If we ever get a future arc or movie, or even a video game where he does transform, it'll be a different story.
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:14 pm

Gog wrote:Before we continue I'll be using the son of Freeza, Kuriza, who technically did appear in the manga, and only in the manga.
No, he appeared in Neko Majin. I'm talking about the Dragon Ball manga.
Gog wrote:Okay I'm going to try and reiterate this point. We do know enough about Freeza's family. We have technically seen five of them, but you'll only take three of them. But through Freeza and his son Kuriza we can glimmer that King Cold is in his true form. Also your main argument in the end is we don't know much about them.
I take two of them, one of which we know barely anything about. No, my main argument is that the story doesn't tell us that Cold can transform so we shouldn't assume he can.
Gog wrote:But I will add that Namekians and Arcosians are two different species.
So are Freeza's species and any of the asexual creatures on Earth, it works both ways.
Gog wrote:He never retconned a thing, because there was simply nothing to retcon with King Cold, and what do you mean Toriyama completely forgot all about how the transformations worked by the time Coola rolled around?
Since you missed the edit, I'm going to post it:
Doctor. wrote:Want another example of something he didn't willingly retcon? Look no further than Freeza's shoulder plates, which were just a part of his armor, but were turned into a permanent part of the Freeza race design with DBH and Frost.
Was this intentional on his part? Of course not. Again, Toriyama may have seen how iconic/marketable Freeza's forms were and designed every character the same way in the future. Why make completely different designs when he can just make similar designs and get it done with? It doesn't change the fact that, in the original manga, Freeza's true form and Cold's only known form look completely distinct from one another.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:33 pm

Doctor. wrote: No, my main argument is that the story doesn't tell us that Cold can transform so we shouldn't assume he can.
Your main arguments is that we don't know for certain. Whenever I bring up a point your main argument is we don't know for certain, retcon, Namekians and if the story dosen't say then we shouldn't assume that King Cold can transform.

How can I argue against that? Your arguments are and I illiterate We don't know for certain and that the story doesn't tell us King Cold can transform so we shouldn't assume he can. But with your second argument should we assume that he cannot transform, it goes both ways does it not?

So are Freeza's species and any of the asexual creatures on Earth, it works both ways.
Two completely different species.

Since you missed the edit, I'm going to post it:
Doctor. wrote:Want another example of something he didn't willingly retcon? Look no further than Freeza's shoulder plates, which were just a part of his armor, but were turned into a permanent part of the Freeza race design with DBH and Frost.
Was this intentional on his part? Of course not. Again, Toriyama may have seen how iconic/marketable Freeza's forms were and designed every character the same way in the future. Why make completely different designs when he can just make similar designs and get it done with? It doesn't change the fact that, in the original manga, Freeza's true form and Cold's only known form look completely distinct from one another.[/quote]

Sorry bout' missing the edit. But arent the suppression forms mouldable? Something which you argue for?

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:41 pm

Gog wrote:Your main arguments is that we don't know for certain. Whenever I bring up a point your main argument is we don't know for certain, retcon, Namekians and if the story dosen't say then we shouldn't assume that King Cold can transform.

How can I argue against that? Your arguments are and I illiterate We don't know for certain and that the story doesn't tell us King Cold can transform so we shouldn't assume he can. But with your second argument should we assume that he cannot transform, it goes both ways does it not?
You're not getting me. I'm saying that outside of the manga, what you're saying is true, because Toriyama retconned it that way post-serialization. Looking only at the manga, there's no evidence for it, only assumptions.

We should assume he cannot transform (in the manga), because if we see one human fly, we're not gonna assume his family member can fly too. Our natural assumption is that he can't.
Sorry bout' missing the edit. But arent the suppression forms mouldable? Something which you argue for?
Sure, but that's just the in-universe explanation. We all know, out-of-universe, the most likely explanation is that Toriyama forgot Freeza's shoulder plates were his armor and that's why he designed Frost and the DBH heroes that way. So it's an unintentional retcon but a retcon nonetheless.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:01 pm

Doctor. wrote: You're not getting me. I'm saying that outside of the manga, what you're saying is true, because Toriyama retconned it that way post-serialization. Looking only at the manga, there's no evidence for it, only assumptions.

We should assume he cannot transform (in the manga), because if we see one human fly, we're not gonna assume his family member can fly too. Our natural assumption is that he can't.
But here's the thing it is absolutely impossible to argue whenever or not King Cold can transform in the manga alone, because whenever I point out King Cold looks similar to Freeza in his second form, you say that we don't know what the rest of Freeza's race looks like, and that Akira Toriyama retconned King Cold into being able to transform.

How can I argue against that? How can you argue against what I'm arguing without the extra material? How can we know for certain that Freeza isn't the only one in his family who can fly? That's the problem with arguing with the manga alone.

Doctor. wrote: Sure, but that's just the in-universe explanation. We all know, out-of-universe, the most likely explanation is that Toriyama forgot Freeza's shoulder plates were his armor and that's why he designed Frost and the DBH heroes that way. So it's an unintentional retcon but a retcon nonetheless.[/qoute]

But then what's to say that Toriyama never did retconned King Cold? What's to say that the most likely explanation out of universe was that Toriyama just wanted to get rid of King Cold quickly?

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:08 pm

Gog wrote:But here's the thing it is absolutely impossible to argue whenever or not King Cold can transform in the manga alone, because whenever I point out King Cold looks similar to Freeza in his second form, you say that we don't know what the rest of Freeza's race looks like, and that Akira Toriyama retconned King Cold into being able to transform.

How can I argue against that? How can you argue against what I'm arguing without the extra material? How can we know for certain that Freeza isn't the only one in his family who can fly? That's the problem with arguing with the manga alone.
There's no problem with arguing the manga alone, if Dragon Ball wasn't popular all we'd have would be the manga to argue with.

A character hasn't shown an ability, so we don't assume he has it. That's how it works. It's like saying Cell can use Kaioken. He should be able to use, but did he ever use it? No, so it's an hypothesis, not a truth.
Gog wrote:But then what's to say that Toriyama never did retconned King Cold? What's to say that the most likely explanation out of universe was that Toriyama just wanted to get rid of King Cold quickly?
I'm not following.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:19 pm

Doctor. wrote: There's no problem with arguing the manga alone, if Dragon Ball wasn't popular all we'd have would be the manga to argue with.
If Dragon Ball wasn't popular than there would be no Kanzenshuu. We wouldn't be arguing about Dragon Ball at all.
Doctor. wrote: A character hasn't shown an ability, so we don't assume he has it. That's how it works. It's like saying Cell can use Kaioken. He should be able to use, but did he ever use it? No, so it's an hypothesis, not a truth.
But then that also goes both ways as well. The idea that King Cold is incapable of transforming is also that a hypothesis as well. With no proof to it as well.
Doctor. wrote: I'm not following.
Okay, I'll try to be more specific. You're saying that Toriyama never intended King Cold to be able to transform, however I'm saying that there's an equal amount of chance that he just simply didn't want to use King Cold, and opted to instead just kill him off as quickly as possible.

You can't prove that my assumption is wrong, and I can't prove that your assumption is wrong.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:24 pm

Gog wrote:But then that also goes both ways as well. The idea that King Cold is incapable of transforming is also that a hypothesis as well. With no proof to it as well.
But it doesn't work both ways... The lack of an ability is the default.

If Goku has a new son, even if he showcases him to be a massive prodigy, you don't assume he already has the ability to go Super Saiyan. You assume that he can't transform until shown otherwise.
Gog wrote:You're saying that Toriyama never intended King Cold to be able to transform, however I'm saying that there's an equal amount of chance that he just simply didn't want to use King Cold, and opted to instead just kill him off as quickly as possible.

You can't prove that my assumption is wrong, and I can't prove that your assumption is wrong.
Then why does it matter if he can transform or not? Just take what the story gives you if that's the case (and, again, the story gives you no information in regards to whether he can transform).

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:36 pm

Doctor. wrote: But it doesn't work both ways... The lack of an ability is the default.

If Goku has a new son, even if he showcases him to be a massive prodigy, you don't assume he already has the ability to go Super Saiyan. You assume that he can't transform until shown otherwise.
Honestly the problem with King Cold is that with the manga alone, and with none of Akira Toriyama's interviews, or without any of the expanded material, he can just as easily transform as he cannot. That's the problem with this debate you're using the original manga only and whenever I try and bring any other members of their species you explain it away as a retcon, even when nothing suggests that.
Doctor. wrote: Then why does it matter if he can transform or not? Just take what the story gives you if that's the case (and, again, the story gives you no information in regards to whether he can transform).
Why does it matter that where on a forum discussing about a silly children's show in an incredibly analytical manner? And yes you're right if we take the original story by itself, without any of Toriyama's interviews, without any of the extra material then yes.

King Cold has an equal chance of not being able to transform and being able to transform, it's up for the viewer to decide that.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:39 pm

Gog wrote:Honestly the problem with King Cold is that with the manga alone, and with none of Akira Toriyama's interviews, or without any of the expanded material, he can just as easily transform as he cannot. That's the problem with this debate you're using the original manga only and whenever I try and bring any other members of their species you explain it away as a retcon, even when nothing suggests that.
Why does it matter if it's a retcon? I'm agreeing that he can probably transform now if he ever shows up again. I'm saying in the manga that was never the case.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:42 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Gog wrote:Honestly the problem with King Cold is that with the manga alone, and with none of Akira Toriyama's interviews, or without any of the expanded material, he can just as easily transform as he cannot. That's the problem with this debate you're using the original manga only and whenever I try and bring any other members of their species you explain it away as a retcon, even when nothing suggests that.
Why does it matter if it's a retcon? I'm agreeing that he can probably transform now if he ever shows up again. I'm saying in the manga that was never the case.
I'm saying that in the original manga he had an equal of transforming and not transforming. It's honestly just up for the viewer to decide.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Ozotto » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:54 am

I officially don't know if he can or can't, it's never been officially stated as far as I know.

However, as a kid growing up in the 90's with the funimation dub, I was under the impression he was in his second form, which I regarded as a suppression of power form... If it's a suppression form, then a true form must exist... At least that was my 7 year old logic.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Shintoki » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:16 pm

just a note, neko majin is ''officially'' a ''parody''. using it as an argument is not recommended to say the least

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by theherodjl » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:00 am

Cold already was in his final form, wasn't he? Cold's strength was almost on par with his son's base level, he was huge which usually indicates a fighter's greater/greatest power, he didn't bother transforming or powering up against Trunks, and he was wearing his 'ruler' outfit which seems to me that he wasn't going to break it like how Freeza did with his battle jacket(because he couldn't transform any more).
The fact that nearly 30 years have passed with Cold not receiving a single nother transformation even in anime spinoffs/video games suggests that Cold has nothing else to give. Only in fanmade content does Cold have other transformations.
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:29 am

I always figured that he just didn't have time to transform against Trunks.
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Saimaroimaru » Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:30 am

My guess is that the power boost between forms is minimal compared to the difference with Frieza's forms. Plus Frieza got that cybernetics upgrade that I assume pushed his power up more, but still vulnerable to Super Saiyans.

I think the key difference is the methodology of how the Frieza clan fights. Unlike the Saiyans who are all about achieving higher forms, the Frieza clan seems to be about trying to control their base level powers by creating transformations that work in reverse, aka make themselves weaker, but make their power more manageable. As was mentioned, Cold is a pragmatic person, so he figured the best method of taking Trunks out was to take his sword rather than to unleash an (presumably) uncontrollable power that probably takes time to release & was less than what his son was working with.

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