King Cold can transform

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Gog
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King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:54 pm

So, I've wanted to make a post for this for a long time... And finally I've decided to do so. Before I start however I want to get these four characters out of the way.

[spoiler]
  • ImageImage
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Now I wont be focusing on Chilled in this discussion as he obviously doesn't have the mutant gene, which was shown with his battle with Bardock. However the characters for Dragon Ball heroes on the other hand are a different case. We don't know if there related to Freeza's family or not.

However I'm going to bite a bullet here and say that there not, or at the very least they don't have the mutant gene, evidenced by the fact that only Freeza and King Cold are the only two mutants.

Anyway with that out of the way. The topic for this post is disproving the idea that King Cold is incapable of transforming, let's begin.

Appearances


To start off the debunking I'm first going to go through the appearances of Cold's children, grand children and a new face.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Now you may say that some of these designs are non canon, and to that I say that canon doesn't exist in this franchise. But the reason why I have them is that they are all designed by Akira Toriyama himself, so I imagine that the designs hold some weight. And as you can see, they all have the same consistent design theme through out all of them, they don't have any stripes, they lack those weird, brown, bumpy striped things that replace the gems and they all lack horns.

Now lets see King Cold's design.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

It's almost as if King Cold looks beat by beat similar to every second suppression form in the franchise;

No really he actually looks beat by beat similar to every other second suppression form in the franchise.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

And that ends the appearances section.

Genetics


Now, I do admit that you can debate against the appearances you can argue that Freeza modeled his second form off his papa's true form, you can argue that Freeza and the rest of Cold's children and grand children are simply more mutated than he is;

But that's obviously not the case here, Freeza inherited King Cold's mutation, he is simply not more mutated than King Cold is. If King Cold is incapable of transforming than that would mean Freeza would be incapable of transforming.

And to cap off this post, the most likely reason for why King Cold never transformed, is because he completely and utterly underestimated the Super Saiyans.
Last edited by Gog on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MasenkoHA
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:37 pm

I don't know is this breaking any new ground?

I always assumed King Cold was in his second form because well...Freeza form 2

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:43 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:I don't know is this breaking any new ground?

I always assumed King Cold was in his second form because well...Freeza form 2
It's just a post to debunk the theory that King Cold is in his true form.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Saturnine » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:18 pm

Gog wrote: Now you may say that some of these designs are non canon, and to that I say that canon doesn't exist in this franchise.
An interesting statement there, chap!

By saying that you're basically admitting that Yamcha is stronger than Perfect Cell and that Goku is at one time stronger than Cell and at another time weaker than Yamcha. Among many other things.

Such as admitting that Freeza exists both in his own Hell in a coccoon state, and in the anime Hell with King Cold, the Ginyu Force and Cell - both at the same time.

So yeah, you might want to reconsider there, buddy.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:26 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Gog wrote: Now you may say that some of these designs are non canon, and to that I say that canon doesn't exist in this franchise.
An interesting statement there, chap!

By saying that you're basically admitting that Yamcha is stronger than Perfect Cell and that Goku is at one time stronger than Cell and at another time weaker than Yamcha. Among many other things.

Such as admitting that Freeza exists both in his own Hell in a coccoon state, and in the anime Hell with King Cold, the Ginyu Force and Cell - both at the same time.

So yeah, you might want to reconsider there, buddy.
There is no official canon in the franchise. That is something well known by now. Basically you can pick and choose what you can consider to be canon. And besides the point the real reason why I chose the designs is because they where designed by Toriyama himself.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Saturnine » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:20 pm

Toei's filler directly contradicted Toriyama's manga at times. That's why canonicity is such a big deal for a lot of purposes, such as debates etc.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Gog » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:22 pm

Saturnine wrote:Toei's filler directly contradicted Toriyama's manga at times. That's why canonicity is such a big deal for a lot of purposes, such as debates etc.
Look, I really don't want to derail this thread, but what did you think of the post, put forward your criticism. I just really do not want to turn this into a canon debate.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Saturnine » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:03 am

Gog wrote:
Saturnine wrote:Toei's filler directly contradicted Toriyama's manga at times. That's why canonicity is such a big deal for a lot of purposes, such as debates etc.
Look, I really don't want to derail this thread, but what did you think of the post, put forward your criticism. I just really do not want to turn this into a canon debate.
You brought this on by writing what you did about canonicity.

As for the topic, I was pretty convinced anyway that everyone thought King Cold could transform and what we saw has his 2nd form. It's a really popular assumption, I would think that the people who think he can't transform are a minority actually.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:43 am

This was unnecessary. We already have official proof backing up the fact that Cold can transform.
His bio from the DBZ Dragon Book(s) states this much:
His appearance bears a close resemblance to Freeza's second form, and Cold also appears to be the type whose abilities increase by transforming.
He should still be weaker than Freeza though, since that's what is said in his Daizenshuu bio IIRC.

Also, "no true canon"? No such thing.
We already have the true "canon", the original Manga by Akira Toriyama. The "no true canon" argument is something you'll hear a lot on YouTube. I wasn't expecting to hear that here. I love DBS and the Anime filler, but that doesn't make it "canon".
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:36 am

DBZ Macky wrote:This was unnecessary. We already have official proof backing up the fact that Cold can transform.
His bio from the DBZ Dragon Book(s) states this much:
His appearance bears a close resemblance to Freeza's second form, and Cold also appears to be the type whose abilities increase by transforming.
"Appears to be" ??
Typical info blurbs in this franchise, instead of stating things with certainty it is a lot of "maybe" "perhaps" "supposedly" etc.
Just shows, those who write this stuff have no clue either and are just guessing.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:47 am

Gog wrote: There is no official canon in the franchise.
The manga.

That is something well known by now.
No it isn't. It's something you literally just made up.
Basically you can pick and choose what you can consider to be canon.
You can consider Tree of Might to be canon, doesn't make you correct.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Kaboom » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:15 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Gog wrote: There is no official canon in the franchise.
The manga.
Even if you just say "the manga" then that still immediately raises other questions that start to snowball into something complicated. Which version of the original manga, the original WSJ/Tankobon version or the Kanzenban edition with some corrections plus the new ending? Which version of Bardock's story to go along with it, the original TV special that Toriyama directly referenced in the manga or Dragon Ball Minus which he drew himself? If it's Minus, then does the rest of the Jaco the Galactic Patrolman manga count as "canon" along with it? What about the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F movies, which were scripted mostly by Toriyama and touted as direct continuations to the manga's story? Then what about the 2008 "Heya! Goku and Friends Return" special which was referenced in Battle of Gods?

Besides, Gog is correct in saying that there's no official canon for the franchise... meaning that nobody in charge of it — be it Toriyama himself or someone from Shueisha or Toei — have ever come forward and clearly stated, "only THIS stuff counts, and anything else is just extra fluff." That's the kind of thing that has happened for other franchises like Star Wars, and granted them an "official canon" in the process, but nothing of the sort has happened for Dragon Ball. The most we've got is some things being touted as "continuing the original story" and other things labeled as "side stories," without any stern commitment to a singular definition or criteria for either category.

So yeah, until something changes, "canon" for Dragon Ball is primarily in the eye of the beholder. I understand that the original manga is usually considered higher priority than anything else when it comes to continuity, and I agree with that. But the fact still remains that that's mostly just a common sense thing on fans' part, and not the result of any official definition of a canon.


Anyway, as for the original topic... by the time I even noticed this thread, DBZ Macky had already beat me to pointing out King Cold's bio from the Dragon Books. It basically confirms that he can transform ("appears to be" is pretty straightforward), but without clarifying more beyond that, such as which form he's actually in, or how many forms he has, and what-not.

Personally, since he looks so much like Freeza's 2nd form, I've always assumed that he's in a suppressive state, and his true form remains unseen somewhere under it. Given that he's supposed to be weaker than Freeza overall, I've wondered if he has fewer suppressive forms than his son, since he has less power that needs to be held back to begin with. The one we saw him in might even be the only suppressive transformation he has.
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:25 pm

Kaboom wrote: Personally, since he looks so much like Freeza's 2nd form, I've always assumed that he's in a suppressive state, and his true form remains unseen somewhere under it. Given that he's supposed to be weaker than Freeza overall, I've wondered if he has fewer suppressive forms than his son, since he has less power that needs to be held back to begin with. The one we saw him in might even be the only suppressive transformation he has.
I agree with the statement about no official canon. However, I am shocked to find out that King Cold is weaker than Frieza?! Really?! Wow, I always believed that he was stronger than his son.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:29 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
Kaboom wrote: Personally, since he looks so much like Freeza's 2nd form, I've always assumed that he's in a suppressive state, and his true form remains unseen somewhere under it. Given that he's supposed to be weaker than Freeza overall, I've wondered if he has fewer suppressive forms than his son, since he has less power that needs to be held back to begin with. The one we saw him in might even be the only suppressive transformation he has.
I agree with the statement about no official canon. However, I am shocked to find out that King Cold is weaker than Frieza?! Really?! Wow, I always believed that he was stronger than his son.
Well, both King Cold and Frieza seem to state that Frieza was the strongest one in the universe between both of them. I'd say that even if King Cold transformed, he would probably still be weaker than Frieza.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Tsufuru » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:08 am

dbgtFO wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:This was unnecessary. We already have official proof backing up the fact that Cold can transform.
His bio from the DBZ Dragon Book(s) states this much:
His appearance bears a close resemblance to Freeza's second form, and Cold also appears to be the type whose abilities increase by transforming.
"Appears to be" ??
Typical info blurbs in this franchise, instead of stating things with certainty it is a lot of "maybe" "perhaps" "supposedly" etc.
Just shows, those who write this stuff have no clue either and are just guessing.
This.
Why dont they think for like 5 mins and than write.
I mean every inconsistency in dragonball can be solved easiely.
I want to know what kind of ppl work with toriyama and for toei.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:56 am

Kaboom wrote: I've wondered if he has fewer suppressive forms than his son, since he has less power that needs to be held back to begin with. The one we saw him in might even be the only suppressive transformation he has.
Seems unlikely to me, I mean it isn't implied anywhere. Though there's nothing contradicting that as well, so there's that.

I do have this head-canon though, that Freeza's "natural" full power would be his "70% power" but he can pump himself up to "100% Power" similar to SS Grade II. Coola can also increase his natural power by transforming, his 100% takes the form of his "5th form" which is a lot more stable than Freeza's "100%" form.

Cold is implied to be stronger than a suppressed Freeza in just what appears to be his 2nd form. So I guess his natural power is greater than Freeza's but he isn't a genius like his sons, and can't increase his power any further. And so his power dwarfs in comparison to his sons' 100% forms.
Tsufuru wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:This was unnecessary. We already have official proof backing up the fact that Cold can transform.
His bio from the DBZ Dragon Book(s) states this much:
"Appears to be" ??
Typical info blurbs in this franchise, instead of stating things with certainty it is a lot of "maybe" "perhaps" "supposedly" etc.
Just shows, those who write this stuff have no clue either and are just guessing.
This.
Why dont they think for like 5 mins and than write.
I mean every inconsistency in dragonball can be solved easiely.
I want to know what kind of ppl work with toriyama and for toei.
When we do get clear cut answers, we get stuff like Gohan not using SS2 after the tournament while being a SS2 against Dabra at the same time.
And Pure Boo being "On a whole different level than the other Boos" while being implied to be weaker than Evil Boo at the same time.
Taking that into consideration, I think it's best to keep things vague.
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Ringworm128 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:08 am

The way I see it he can transform but he would ultimately still be weaker than Freeza. This is backed up by the fact he never corrected Freeza when he said that he was the strongest in the universe. That is why he didn't transform; he saw how quickly Trunks went through Freeza and instantly new that the same would happen to him, even at max power and quickly put all his stakes on getting Trunks's sword which he most likely assumed was magical or something. And as we know this plan backfired on him .
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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:40 am

What's with everyone saying that Cold was weaker than Freeza? Didn't at least two people explicitly state that Cold had "a ki even more terrifying than Freeza"?

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Saturnine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:37 pm

Their ki were described as similar in size and feel, from what I remember.

Also, let's not forget that King Cold was mentioned by Freeza himself to be the only one able to inflict pain (or was it "harm"?) on his original form, so he can't really be that weak.

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Re: King Cold can transform

Post by Ringworm128 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:03 pm

TheatreStyleKai wrote:What's with everyone saying that Cold was weaker than Freeza? Didn't at least two people explicitly state that Cold had "a ki even more terrifying than Freeza"?
If I remember correctly, Tenshinhan states that there were two enormous powers, and that one was stronger than the other. I don't recall it ever being stated which ki belonged to which character.
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