How strong is Base Goku?

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AvatarReiko
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How strong is Base Goku?

Post by AvatarReiko » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:19 pm

A post-ritual Goku is shown to be able to fight and have the slight upper hand against 4th form Frieza(Post training). From what I understood is that the the god ki increased the power of his base. However, with all the later additions and super retcons, I am not sure if this is still case. How strong is current base Goku compared to buy saga characters?

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:41 pm

In the Revival of F arc, it was established that post-training Tagoma was of a level at least on par with Gohan's post-powerup Buu arc strength, and Ginyu taking over his body amplified his power from that point. Vegeta, in turn (who was probably on par with Goku at the time) was shown to easily overpower Ginyu-Tagoma while in his base form. Furthermore, in the Potaufeu arc, Copy-Vegeta was shown to be able to easily dispatch and dominate Ssj3 Gotenks, only to later fight evenly with base form Goku when he showed up.

Taking the two factors into account, we can say that, at least as far as the anime is concerned, base form Goku and Vegeta are easily in the upper tier of Buu arc characters strength wise, potentially with only Vegetto in some of his Ssj forms being superior.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ryan s » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:56 pm

they should be SSG level mid black arc

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by TheMikado » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:06 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:A post-ritual Goku is shown to be able to fight and have the slight upper hand against 4th form Frieza(Post training). From what I understood is that the the god ki increased the power of his base. However, with all the later additions and super retcons, I am not sure if this is still case. How strong is current base Goku compared to buy saga characters?
This question has been the topic of debate since at least 2015. Head over to this thread and ask your question.These are people who have literally followed the power scaling meticulously for years and can even point you to specific episodes and quotes.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&start=12900

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:48 pm

imho, Base Goku in Super is strong enough to crush Freeza 100% back in the Freeza Saga, so over 120 million?
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:58 pm

He is as strong as the plot demands.
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:28 pm

FoolsGil wrote:imho, Base Goku in Super is strong enough to crush Freeza 100% back in the Freeza Saga, so over 120 million?
Freeza? Pretty sure Goku is strong enough to crush Super Perfect Cell, as he stands way above his and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power from back there.

But as already mentioned, in reality, Goku will be as strong as the plot demands.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:31 pm

I put Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:32 pm

Stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks if we go by F and the Copy-Vegeta filler, about as strong as his Boo arc self (so, weaker than Namek Freeza) if we go by everything else.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by pacz360 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:59 pm

Base goku is ssjg level given that base vegeta stomped ssj3 gotenks with ease and goku matched him in base not to mention his performance against beerus (in the monaka suit) compare how he did in there first match you'll see the difference.
Even if you don't wanna accept him being at god level he sure as hell stronger than ssj3 tier+ and yes its canon in the anime given goku reference the event in the black saga.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:05 pm

pacz360 wrote:Base goku is ssjg level given that base vegeta stomped ssj3 gotenks with ease and goku matched him in base not to mention his performance against beerus (in the monaka suit) compare how he did in there first match you'll see the difference.
I don't consider the fight with Beerus that useful to determine Goku's strength, as it was readily indicated Beerus was restrained in order to keep the costume from ripping

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by pacz360 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:38 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
pacz360 wrote:Base goku is ssjg level given that base vegeta stomped ssj3 gotenks with ease and goku matched him in base not to mention his performance against beerus (in the monaka suit) compare how he did in there first match you'll see the difference.
I don't consider the fight with Beerus that useful to determine Goku's strength, as it was readily indicated Beerus was restrained in order to keep the costume from ripping
Beerus wants to show how strong Monaka was to goku plus beerus was staring to get a bit serious to the point whis had to stop the fight ssj3 goku and mystic gohan were one shotted with ease in bog and base goku here was doing hell a lot better than he did when he first met him.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:11 am

pacz360 wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:
pacz360 wrote:Base goku is ssjg level given that base vegeta stomped ssj3 gotenks with ease and goku matched him in base not to mention his performance against beerus (in the monaka suit) compare how he did in there first match you'll see the difference.
I don't consider the fight with Beerus that useful to determine Goku's strength, as it was readily indicated Beerus was restrained in order to keep the costume from ripping
Beerus wants to show how strong Monaka was to goku plus beerus was staring to get a bit serious to the point whis had to stop the fight ssj3 goku and mystic gohan were one shotted with ease in bog and base goku here was doing hell a lot better than he did when he first met him.
It's still directly stated though that Beerus was having trouble in part due to him needing to worry about the costume. It was clear, going all out, that he'd tear the costume apart and ruin what he was trying to do, so he was restraining himself to some degree as a result.
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Freeza9000 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:40 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
pacz360 wrote:Base goku is ssjg level given that base vegeta stomped ssj3 gotenks with ease and goku matched him in base not to mention his performance against beerus (in the monaka suit) compare how he did in there first match you'll see the difference.
I don't consider the fight with Beerus that useful to determine Goku's strength, as it was readily indicated Beerus was restrained in order to keep the costume from ripping
Even a restrained Beerus would've been strong enough to demolish SSJ3 Gotenks, "Mystic/Ultimate" Gohan, and Boohan with a single finger.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by saunasolmu » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:20 am

Base Goku did better against Beerus than SSG Goku.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by AvatarReiko » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:25 am

Darkprince410 wrote:In the Revival of F arc, it was established that post-training Tagoma was of a level at least on par with Gohan's post-powerup Buu arc strength, and Ginyu taking over his body amplified his power from that point. Vegeta, in turn (who was probably on par with Goku at the time) was shown to easily overpower Ginyu-Tagoma while in his base form. Furthermore, in the Potaufeu arc, Copy-Vegeta was shown to be able to easily dispatch and dominate Ssj3 Gotenks, only to later fight evenly with base form Goku when he showed up.

Taking the two factors into account, we can say that, at least as far as the anime is concerned, base form Goku and Vegeta are easily in the upper tier of Buu arc characters strength wise, potentially with only Vegetto in some of his Ssj forms being superior.

But wasn't Gohan supposed to have gotten weaker due to lack of training. He was having issues even turning SSJ and I don't remember him using SSJ2 either.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:14 am

He is above SSJ3 Gotenks and is comparable to Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc as shown.
I don't see how people are even using Freeza as an argument. Final form Freeza is weaker than ROF Base Goku, therefore he is weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Shlugo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:49 am

copy Vegeta was way above SSJ 3 Gotenks in base while not using his full power (note how he starts powering up before his fight with Goku) and they got stronger since then. This gives us a lowe end for his power as "way stronger than Gotenks" with the possible high end of "stronger than his SSG self during fight with Beerus".

In any case he should be easily stronger than anyone in Boo saga barring prehaps Super Vegetto.
Darkprince410 wrote: I don't consider the fight with Beerus that useful to determine Goku's strength, as it was readily indicated Beerus was restrained in order to keep the costume from ripping
Yeah, but after a point he stopped caring about the costume because he got so caught up in the fight, even forcing Whis to step in and stop the fight before Earth was destroyed.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:27 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:
But wasn't Gohan supposed to have gotten weaker due to lack of training. He was having issues even turning SSJ and I don't remember him using SSJ2 either.
He was weaker in his base form than his old "Ultimate" state, but the Ssj transformation pushed him above that. He distinctly states though that Tagoma (before Ginyu steals his body) was stronger than he was "at his best", which really doesn't have any other way of being taken than his Buu arc "Ultimate" strength.
Freeza9000 wrote:Even a restrained Beerus would've been strong enough to demolish SSJ3 Gotenks, "Mystic/Ultimate" Gohan, and Boohan with a single finger.
Shlugo wrote:Yeah, but after a point he stopped caring about the costume because he got so caught up in the fight, even forcing Whis to step in and stop the fight before Earth was destroyed.

I'm not saying that the two of them weren't possibly stronger than the likes of the stronger Buu arc characters, I'm simply saying that I wouldn't say that Goku was near Beerus's level of power due to that fight, because we know Beerus was holding back. Additionally, we know that, through the interview between Toriyama and Toyotaro, Goku and Vegeta hadn't surpassed Beerus and Whis by at least the Future Trunks arc of Super, meaning that if Ssj Blue Goku hadn't surpassed Beerus, than his base form was miles from Beerus.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by emperior » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:42 pm

From U6 onwards he is stronger than 100% Freezer was back on Namek but during RoF base Goku is above SSJ3 Gotenks, possibly even above Mystic Gohan.
Basically the theory is that Goku and Vegeta, in order to use their old SSJ forms again (possibly for training purposes because the Super Saiyan forms tire their bodies) trained in the RoSaT to only use their SSG power when transforming in SSB. It's possible that they also did it to get a stronger SSB form as a result. This is something the show left unexplained unless we want to believe Piccolo got extremely strong out of nowhere, that Cabba is stronger than Mystic Gohan was (highly unprobable considering Vegeta's earlier comments about Gohan having the most potential out of him and Goku) and Future Trunks also got that powerful in such a short time (he definitely got more powerful because of his fights with Black though). Also Goku had high expectations out of Buu, but it might be more because of his near-immortality than his power even though in a tournament like that power prevails because there were out of rings and killing wasn't allowed. We could also assume Final Form Freezer was holding back a lot when he was confronting Goku, but everything that happens in-universe confirms us Freezer wasn't holding back.
So, unless Goku can stack a 50x SSJ multiplier, a 100x SSJ2 multiplier and a 400x SSJ3 multiplier on top of his already Mystic Gohan-tier base, we must assume his base was nerfed after RoF. But that's still a debated topic and until the anime shows us exactly how strong Goku his in his base, we won't really know whether the two-base theory is true or not. The Tournament of Power will hopefully shed some light over this whole thing.
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