How strong is Base Goku?

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:17 am

What if this super strong Base Goku wasn't Saiyan Beyond God, but something different?

Goku and Vegeta learned to control their ki through not letting it leak out. This helped them achieve SSBlue. What if the super strong Base form is a Ki-Condensed Base?

The crew can still feel it because it is not god ki, just condensed mortal ki. It would also explain how Vegeta could have a weak and a strong Base even though he only trained. It fixes the Hit vs. Base Goku and Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku fights, while keeping Goku's Base below Buu. This could allow for Cabba's Base to actually be very weak, and confirm Vegeta's disappointment in him. It keeps Trunks and Zamasu at strong regions, but nowhere near SSG level. Goku said that Frost never trained and it could be thought that Goku uses Base form against him and Ki-Condensed Base against Frieza RoF. This follows what Toriyama said about Goku and Vegeta focusing on training their Base and Super Saiyan forms.


Base < Super Saiyan 1 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 << Super Saiyan God = Ki-Condensed Base < Super Saiyan Blue

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:19 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:What if this super strong Base Goku wasn't Saiyan Beyond God, but something different?

Goku and Vegeta learned to control their ki through not letting it leak out. This helped them achieve SSBlue. What if the super strong Base form is a Ki-Condensed Base?

The crew can still feel it because it is not god ki, just condensed mortal ki. It would also explain how Vegeta could have a weak and a strong Base even though he only trained. It fixes the Hit vs. Base Goku and Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku fights, while keeping Goku's Base below Buu. This could allow for Cabba's Base to actually be very weak, and confirm Vegeta's disappointment in him. It keeps Trunks and Zamasu at strong regions, but nowhere near SSG level. Goku said that Frost never trained and it could be thought that Goku uses Base form against him and Ki-Condensed Base against Frieza RoF. This follows what Toriyama said about Goku and Vegeta focusing on training their Base and Super Saiyan forms.


Base < Super Saiyan 1 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 << Super Saiyan God = Ki-Condensed Base < Super Saiyan Blue
This is just Saiyan beyond God with a different name lol.

I just don't get why people hate the idea. It's perfect for fixing the power scale.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:23 am

ZombieVito wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:What if this super strong Base Goku wasn't Saiyan Beyond God, but something different?

Goku and Vegeta learned to control their ki through not letting it leak out. This helped them achieve SSBlue. What if the super strong Base form is a Ki-Condensed Base?

The crew can still feel it because it is not god ki, just condensed mortal ki. It would also explain how Vegeta could have a weak and a strong Base even though he only trained. It fixes the Hit vs. Base Goku and Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku fights, while keeping Goku's Base below Buu. This could allow for Cabba's Base to actually be very weak, and confirm Vegeta's disappointment in him. It keeps Trunks and Zamasu at strong regions, but nowhere near SSG level. Goku said that Frost never trained and it could be thought that Goku uses Base form against him and Ki-Condensed Base against Frieza RoF. This follows what Toriyama said about Goku and Vegeta focusing on training their Base and Super Saiyan forms.


Base < Super Saiyan 1 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 << Super Saiyan God = Ki-Condensed Base < Super Saiyan Blue
This is just Saiyan beyond God with a different name lol.

I just don't get why people hate the idea. It's perfect for fixing the power scale.
It's not really Saiyan Beyond God. ... SBG Goku is after he absorbed the SSG power into his Base. KCB Goku is literally just Goku not letting his ki leak. Different ideas, dude.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:38 am

I really don't see the difference to be honest. Even in your power chain your form is equal to SSG.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:53 am

Toyotaro did fix the power scale by reintroducing SSj God.

In the anime everything is more or less the same, but there is nothing to fill the spot taken by SSj God in the manga, since Saiyan Beyond God seems to have been retired, for reasons I've already written about.

Bringing it back in a way that would leave no doubt as to it being the thing would indeed help, but it would also introduce some problems. Goku would never go SSj, 2 or 3 anymore (pretty much what Toriyama said in an interview would be the case), but would power up within his vast base power to different levels. For one thing, it would not look as appealing as the SSj forms do, for another it would confuse the crap out of many DB fans, since as we all know many of them aren't the brightest.

So indeed, right now it would seem that SSj Blue has been repurposed into just a power-up over SSj, rather than an alternative version of it for godly-empowered Saiyans. In the anime it goes:

Base > SSj > SSj2> SSj3 > ??? > SSj Blue

In the manga you can fill the question marks with Super Saiyan God, and in RoF and Potaufeu it's just SbG > SSj Blue instead (the way it was originally intended)

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:09 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:What if this super strong Base Goku wasn't Saiyan Beyond God, but something different?
Nah, I don't think so.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Saturnine wrote:Toyotaro did fix the power scale by reintroducing SSj God.

In the anime everything is more or less the same, but there is nothing to fill the spot taken by SSj God in the manga, since Saiyan Beyond God seems to have been retired, for reasons I've already written about.

Bringing it back in a way that would leave no doubt as to it being the thing would indeed help, but it would also introduce some problems. Goku would never go SSj, 2 or 3 anymore (pretty much what Toriyama said in an interview would be the case), but would power up within his vast base power to different levels. For one thing, it would not look as appealing as the SSj forms do, for another it would confuse the crap out of many DB fans, since as we all know many of them aren't the brightest.

So indeed, right now it would seem that SSj Blue has been repurposed into just a power-up over SSj, rather than an alternative version of it for godly-empowered Saiyans. In the anime it goes:

Base > SSj > SSj2> SSj3 > ??? > SSj Blue

In the manga you can fill the question marks with Super Saiyan God, and in RoF and Potaufeu it's just SbG > SSj Blue instead (the way it was originally intended)
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:What if this super strong Base Goku wasn't Saiyan Beyond God, but something different?
Nah, I don't think so.

This has been something that has been bothering me for awhile. If we are to try and take an integrated approach to the manga and anime, we would have to consider both things. SBG was a good replacement for SSG; however, the absence of it now begs the question: was it ever there at all? Since we do not see it anymore does this mean it was always Base > SS1 > SS2 > SS3 > SSG > SSB? Should we retroactively fit this scale into all of DBSuper? I used to think so, but now I am starting to feel like we need to incorporate the SBG moments into this.

I thought a lot about this last night, and the phrase: Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God it confusing. I mentally associate those things to be different than they are. SSBG is weaker than SBG, which makes no sense based on their names, and this causes confusion for me.

I have started to believe that when Goku was a Super Saiyan in Ep. 14 the SSG power had not fully merged with him yet. The full merging with his Base form only happens when he needs the power to defeat the sun ball and turns into Base.

I renamed the Super Saiyan in Ep. 14 (sometimes called Super Saiyan Beyond God). I am calling it Semi-Merged Super Saiyan God.
I am chose to rename the Base in Ep. 14 (sometimes called Saiyan Beyond God). I am calling it Merged Super Saiyan God.
These names more accurately describe what happened during the Battle of Gods saga. The phrase 'Beyond God' also has a lot of controversy around it.
This would answer the question that Goku was a 'Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan.' We know that turning into a Super Saiyan as SSGod gives you SSBlue.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:16 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:This has been something that has been bothering me for awhile. If we are to try and take an integrated approach to the manga and anime, we would have to consider both things. SBG was a good replacement for SSG; however, the absence of it now begs the question: was it ever there at all?
I used to believe that the manga simply retconned the base with SSG power state out of existence, while the anime made changes to it (instead of both base & SS = SSG like in the movies, SS = SSG while base = 1/50th SSG, SS2 = SSG x2, SS3 = SSG x8), until a certain someone appeared: Goku Black.

Black, who is Zamasu that has taken Goku's body from the future (the present's timeline future, not Trunks' future), appears to be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God who is weakened because of the body switch & is slowly regaining the body's former full power through near-death power-ups. In his base form, he is stronger than SS3 Goku and becomes even stronger through power-ups, yet his Super Saiyan Rosé form (which is his version of Super Saiyan Blue) is at a close level with SSB Goku. The manga makes it even more apparent, where Black turns into a regular Super Saiyan at first, but when he finally draws out all of Goku's powers through near-death power-ups, his Super Saiyan form becomes Super Saiyan Rosé, like Goku's regular Super Saiyan was implied to have become Super Saiyan Blue thanks to his training between BoG & FnF.

If Black was just a regular overpowered base Saiyan (like Gotenks or Vegetto), his Super Saiyan Rosé form would have been many hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, yet it clearly isn't the case in both anime & manga.

Add the fact that if we assume that Goku & Vegeta have permanently the power of SSG in their base and/or SS forms everyone from the other universes has to be at around SSG level, and everyone from U7 that has a fight in Super must have reached a level around SSG level through training...
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:28 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:This has been something that has been bothering me for awhile. If we are to try and take an integrated approach to the manga and anime, we would have to consider both things. SBG was a good replacement for SSG; however, the absence of it now begs the question: was it ever there at all?
I used to believe that the manga simply retconned the base with SSG power state out of existence, while the anime made changes to it (instead of both base & SS = SSG like in the movies, SS = SSG while base = 1/50th SSG, SS2 = SSG x2, SS3 = SSG x8), until a certain someone appeared: Goku Black.

Black, who is Zamasu that has taken Goku's body from the future (the present's timeline future, not Trunks' future), appears to be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God who is weakened because of the body switch & is slowly regaining the body's former full power through near-death power-ups. In his base form, he is stronger than SS3 Goku and becomes even stronger through power-ups, yet his Super Saiyan Rosé form (which is his version of Super Saiyan Blue) is at a close level with SSB Goku. The manga makes it even more apparent, where Black turns into a regular Super Saiyan at first, but when he finally draws out all of Goku's powers through near-death power-ups, his Super Saiyan form becomes Super Saiyan Rosé, like Goku's regular Super Saiyan was implied to have become Super Saiyan Blue thanks to his training between BoG & FnF.

If Black was just a regular overpowered base Saiyan (like Gotenks or Vegetto), his Super Saiyan Rosé form would have been many hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, yet it clearly isn't the case in both anime & manga.

Add the fact that if we assume that Goku & Vegeta have permanently the power of SSG in their base and/or SS forms everyone from the other universes has to be at around SSG level, and everyone from U7 that has a fight in Super must have reached a level around SSG level through training...
Yup, Black sealed the deal here and everything fits perfectly now. Now the only "problem" in the power scale is Trunks performance in episode 57, which I have been thinking that Trunks might have unlocked Vegeta's mutated Super Saiyan 2 there. Since Trunks base is over 10 times stronger than that Vegeta's base, it can work.

People can bitch at it all they want but Saiyan beyond God is a thing. The manga was useful for something for a change.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:59 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:This has been something that has been bothering me for awhile. If we are to try and take an integrated approach to the manga and anime, we would have to consider both things. SBG was a good replacement for SSG; however, the absence of it now begs the question: was it ever there at all?
I used to believe that the manga simply retconned the base with SSG power state out of existence, while the anime made changes to it (instead of both base & SS = SSG like in the movies, SS = SSG while base = 1/50th SSG, SS2 = SSG x2, SS3 = SSG x8), until a certain someone appeared: Goku Black.

Black, who is Zamasu that has taken Goku's body from the future (the present's timeline future, not Trunks' future), appears to be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God who is weakened because of the body switch & is slowly regaining the body's former full power through near-death power-ups. In his base form, he is stronger than SS3 Goku and becomes even stronger through power-ups, yet his Super Saiyan Rosé form (which is his version of Super Saiyan Blue) is at a close level with SSB Goku. The manga makes it even more apparent, where Black turns into a regular Super Saiyan at first, but when he finally draws out all of Goku's powers through near-death power-ups, his Super Saiyan form becomes Super Saiyan Rosé, like Goku's regular Super Saiyan was implied to have become Super Saiyan Blue thanks to his training between BoG & FnF.

If Black was just a regular overpowered base Saiyan (like Gotenks or Vegetto), his Super Saiyan Rosé form would have been many hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, yet it clearly isn't the case in both anime & manga.

Add the fact that if we assume that Goku & Vegeta have permanently the power of SSG in their base and/or SS forms everyone from the other universes has to be at around SSG level, and everyone from U7 that has a fight in Super must have reached a level around SSG level through training...
Yup, Black sealed the deal here and everything fits perfectly now. Now the only "problem" in the power scale is Trunks performance in episode 57, which I have been thinking that Trunks might have unlocked Vegeta's mutated Super Saiyan 2 there. Since Trunks base is over 10 times stronger than that Vegeta's base, it can work.

People can bitch at it all they want but Saiyan beyond God is a thing. The manga was useful for something for a change.
Future Trunks performance in EP57 is the biggest hurdle to overcome when it comes to power-scaling in Super.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:05 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Future Trunks performance in EP57 is the biggest hurdle to overcome when it comes to power-scaling in Super.
It's really not that big of a deal. He either got a rage boost or the Quake of Fury form.

Done.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:06 pm

Close enough to however strong Vegeta had to get to access SSG/SSB via training.

So not SSG, but close.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:18 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Future Trunks performance in EP57 is the biggest hurdle to overcome when it comes to power-scaling in Super.
It's really not that big of a deal. He either got a rage boost or the Quake of Fury form.

Done.
In Ep. 57, I don't think Future Trunks held up against SSRose Goku Black, which is good. He held his own against Future Zamasu. I see this as the manga's Improved Super Saiyan 2 form that is stronger than SS3.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:20 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Future Trunks performance in EP57 is the biggest hurdle to overcome when it comes to power-scaling in Super.
It's really not that big of a deal. He either got a rage boost or the Quake of Fury form.

Done.
In Ep. 57, I don't think Future Trunks held up against SSRose Goku Black, which is good. He held his own against Future Zamasu. I see this as the manga's Improved Super Saiyan 2 form that is stronger than SS3.
And that Zamasu held his own against SSB Goku.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:42 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
It's really not that big of a deal. He either got a rage boost or the Quake of Fury form.

Done.
In Ep. 57, I don't think Future Trunks held up against SSRose Goku Black, which is good. He held his own against Future Zamasu. I see this as the manga's Improved Super Saiyan 2 form that is stronger than SS3.
And that Zamasu held his own against SSB Goku.
We honestly have to chalk that up to his immortality. There's no other way. As of Ep. 57, I see this:

SSRose Goku Black
SSBlue Goku = SSBlue Vegeta
SS2 Mutation Vegeta
SS2 Improved Future Trunks
Future Zamasu
SS2 Goku
Present Zamasu

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:16 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:What if this super strong Base Goku wasn't Saiyan Beyond God, but something different?

Goku and Vegeta learned to control their ki through not letting it leak out. This helped them achieve SSBlue. What if the super strong Base form is a Ki-Condensed Base?

The crew can still feel it because it is not god ki, just condensed mortal ki. It would also explain how Vegeta could have a weak and a strong Base even though he only trained. It fixes the Hit vs. Base Goku and Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku fights, while keeping Goku's Base below Buu. This could allow for Cabba's Base to actually be very weak, and confirm Vegeta's disappointment in him. It keeps Trunks and Zamasu at strong regions, but nowhere near SSG level. Goku said that Frost never trained and it could be thought that Goku uses Base form against him and Ki-Condensed Base against Frieza RoF. This follows what Toriyama said about Goku and Vegeta focusing on training their Base and Super Saiyan forms.


Base < Super Saiyan 1 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 << Super Saiyan God = Ki-Condensed Base < Super Saiyan Blue
This is just Saiyan beyond God with a different name lol.

I just don't get why people hate the idea. It's perfect for fixing the power scale.
It's not really Saiyan Beyond God. ... SBG Goku is after he absorbed the SSG power into his Base. KCB Goku is literally just Goku not letting his ki leak. Different ideas, dude.
Yeah, sorry, but I'm not seeing any especial difference either.

I mean, granted, there was apparently a misconception floating around that "SbG equates to Saiyan with SSJG's power AND all its other properties (including its inability to be sensed by non-deities)". I had to explain that I wasn't using SbG in that way. So maybe having the same level of power be renamed into KCB might serve to lead people into not inserting their ideas of what you mean into your theory and failing to understand it based on that.

But that really seems to me to be chasing after the symptoms rather than seeking out a real cure. Your KCB idea really seems like SbG by any other name, one arrived at now by merely tweaking the theory further.

Because that's what a theory is, folks. An idea that sprang into being based on some evidence that is either confirmed, supported, forced to be tweaked or even majorly changed, or forced to be discarded by further evidence. Maybe there was an initial idea of SbG being "the power AND all the other qualities of SSJG in something looking like Base" and that specific part of the overall theory had to be changed in light of the revelation that the others were able to sense his power again. I myself in this very thread went from chalking Goku's use of the lesser forms over suppressed SbG as mere preference to chalking it up to the suppression drain of SbG (suppression causing an eventual drain being established in RoF and applying to SbG simply because there's no reason not to) being larger than the energy drain of SSJ2 and SSJ3.

So ideally, the theory exists and is talked through and modified as necessary. But when the very subject creates a toxic and unwelcoming environment, then we're bloody well not going to want to volunteer ourselves to be subject to that, now are we?

But ZombieVito is right. The two-base theory really does a better job of fixing the power-scale issues than anything else I've seen. Maybe not perfectly and certainly not without the need to modify it here and there. But I've never felt the need to abandon it altogether (with the exception of certain times of weakness where the pressure of the community's toxicity made me consider just going along). And wherever the hate for the idea is coming from, it really strikes me as contrary to the open and welcoming environment that the Kanzenshuu forums are supposed to be.

So instead of trying to repaint the two-base theory as something else to avoid the vitriol, I think we just need to call it for what it is whenever and wherever it arises and push for the civil place the Kanzenshuu should be, even when discussing an unpopular theory (for whatever reason it's unpopular).

And in fairness, I am glad to see the respect and civil discussion on this last page.
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:26 pm

Tectorman wrote:suppression causing an eventual drain being established in RoF
:eh: I don't seem to recall that, and the manga suggest that suppressing your battle power actually conserves stamina instead of draining it.

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Jheese: “Wh-what’s going on…?! There’s no mistake that his battle power is only 5,000…”
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:58 pm

Tectorman wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
This is just Saiyan beyond God with a different name lol.

I just don't get why people hate the idea. It's perfect for fixing the power scale.
It's not really Saiyan Beyond God. ... SBG Goku is after he absorbed the SSG power into his Base. KCB Goku is literally just Goku not letting his ki leak. Different ideas, dude.
Yeah, sorry, but I'm not seeing any especial difference either.

I mean, granted, there was apparently a misconception floating around that "SbG equates to Saiyan with SSJG's power AND all its other properties (including its inability to be sensed by non-deities)". I had to explain that I wasn't using SbG in that way. So maybe having the same level of power be renamed into KCB might serve to lead people into not inserting their ideas of what you mean into your theory and failing to understand it based on that.

But that really seems to me to be chasing after the symptoms rather than seeking out a real cure. Your KCB idea really seems like SbG by any other name, one arrived at now by merely tweaking the theory further.

Because that's what a theory is, folks. An idea that sprang into being based on some evidence that is either confirmed, supported, forced to be tweaked or even majorly changed, or forced to be discarded by further evidence. Maybe there was an initial idea of SbG being "the power AND all the other qualities of SSJG in something looking like Base" and that specific part of the overall theory had to be changed in light of the revelation that the others were able to sense his power again. I myself in this very thread went from chalking Goku's use of the lesser forms over suppressed SbG as mere preference to chalking it up to the suppression drain of SbG (suppression causing an eventual drain being established in RoF and applying to SbG simply because there's no reason not to) being larger than the energy drain of SSJ2 and SSJ3.

So ideally, the theory exists and is talked through and modified as necessary. But when the very subject creates a toxic and unwelcoming environment, then we're bloody well not going to want to volunteer ourselves to be subject to that, now are we?

But ZombieVito is right. The two-base theory really does a better job of fixing the power-scale issues than anything else I've seen. Maybe not perfectly and certainly not without the need to modify it here and there. But I've never felt the need to abandon it altogether (with the exception of certain times of weakness where the pressure of the community's toxicity made me consider just going along). And wherever the hate for the idea is coming from, it really strikes me as contrary to the open and welcoming environment that the Kanzenshuu forums are supposed to be.

So instead of trying to repaint the two-base theory as something else to avoid the vitriol, I think we just need to call it for what it is whenever and wherever it arises and push for the civil place the Kanzenshuu should be, even when discussing an unpopular theory (for whatever reason it's unpopular).

And in fairness, I am glad to see the respect and civil discussion on this last page.

I think civil discussion is very important too. I don't know the answer to this, and I will be the first one to admit that.

Maybe my Ki-Condensed Base idea is wrong, and I will accept that. My biggest issue with Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God is that the names have almost lost their meanings.

My post above mentions this. I really like the idea of calling them Semi-Merged Super Saiyan God and Merged Super Saiyan God. Those names make things clearer to me. At the end of the day, despite how much I would rather not confuse things with Goku absorbing SSG -- it happened. His Super Saiyan Ep. 14 form was stronger than SSG, and his Base Ep. 14 form was stronger than that. Beerus explains how Goku absorbed the SSG power when he was in his Super Saiyan form, but I am proposing that Beerus was wrong. Goku did not fully absorb it until turning into Base form fighting the sun ball. You could make the explanation because he was in his Super Saiyan form right before he became an SSGod, so it merged with his SS form. Then it didn't fully merge into his Base until he reverted into it during the sun ball fight.

In the manga Goku fought Hit with SSG right before going blue. We see Base Goku fight Hit in the anime right before going blue. These moments need to be considered as versions of the same thing, as, I believe, an integrated view of the manga and anime will solve things. This Base form version of SSG could be filling in the gap (Base > SS1 > SS2 > SS3 > ??? > SSB) in the anime, while SSG fills it in the manga. I know that this is information that people already came to an understanding of, but I go at my own pace. It's also been confusing for me because this Black-haired Base God form is gone now. Does that mean Goku and Vegeta still have SBG?

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Tectorman
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:54 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Tectorman wrote:suppression causing an eventual drain being established in RoF
:eh: I don't seem to recall that, and the manga suggest that suppressing your battle power actually conserves stamina instead of draining it.

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Jheese: “Wh-what’s going on…?! There’s no mistake that his battle power is only 5,000…”
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”
The Z Fighters fought Frieza's army suppressed down to their level (well, closer to their level) because for whatever reason, they didn't want to kill any of them. And except for Jaco, they all took a Senzu bean at the end of that. Hence, my claim that suppression causes some form of drain.

Please note that I'm not even saying that this drain is substantial, just that, however small it may be, it's still greater than the "no drain" that FPSSJ has, or the somewhat drain of SSJ2 or somewhat larger drain of SSJ3.

Or it may be the case that how substantial the drain is relates to how much is being suppressed. I.e., Kamiccolo and Gohan (surely in the multiple millions) suppressing down to mere thousands costs more than Namek Goku (90,000) suppressing to the 5,000 he showed against the Ginyu Force. Because you are correct regarding that scene and that line of dialogue, but I have to wonder how universally it applies.

Actually, this whole thing reminds me of Frieza's suppression forms. We know from his fight with Goku that he can control his power level in his final form (he distinctly had 100%, 50%, and whatever percentage of his power we say his final form started with). Why then would he need suppression forms to go down to 530,000 if he can do so without them?

But if we suppose that suppressing stops being an energy saving method after a certain point, that Namek Goku to Conserving Namek Goku is on the positive side but 50% Frieza to 530,000 (or SbG down to regular SSJ, SSJ2, & SSJ3 levels) is on the negative side, then the necessity of Frieza's suppression forms and Goku and Vegeta's renewed use of the lesser transformations fits.
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Saturnine
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:54 am

The filler writers made a nod to the old scheme again in this week's episode. Goku reverted back to base from Super Saiyan before going SSj Blue, as if he was shifting to a godly base before transforming into Blue.

In the U6 arc, transformations from SSj to Blue were direct instead.

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