How strong is Base Goku?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
AvatarReiko
Regular
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:46 am

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:06 am

theherodjl wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again
It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.
Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot

cheddarsword
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:59 am

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by cheddarsword » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:22 am

AvatarReiko wrote:
theherodjl wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again
It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.
Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot
Krillin Owned Count: 37

User avatar
ChiefWamsutta
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 7:11 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:57 pm

Saturnine wrote:The filler writers made a nod to the old scheme again in this week's episode. Goku reverted back to base from Super Saiyan before going SSj Blue, as if he was shifting to a godly base before transforming into Blue.

In the U6 arc, transformations from SSj to Blue were direct instead.
I noticed that too. It's really cool.

If Frieza trained and got to SSB level, then Skinny Buu could easily be at SSG level. It looks like Base Goku will fight Skinny Buu, which would be consistent.

User avatar
Tectorman
Regular
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:51 pm

Saturnine wrote:The filler writers made a nod to the old scheme again in this week's episode. Goku reverted back to base from Super Saiyan before going SSj Blue, as if he was shifting to a godly base before transforming into Blue.

In the U6 arc, transformations from SSj to Blue were direct instead.
Earlier, I was theorizing that the reason we haven't seen SSB2 or SSB3 yet was that using SSJ (and its subsequent improvements) and using God ki are two separate masteries that Goku and Vegeta have so far only managed to juggle in the form of SSB (that is to say, God ki with one SSJ transformation stacked on top). While I'm not going to call it a confirmation, it is nice to see the series line up with my suppositions.
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!

User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:02 pm

Tectorman wrote:The Z Fighters fought Frieza's army suppressed down to their level (well, closer to their level) because for whatever reason, they didn't want to kill any of them. And except for Jaco, they all took a Senzu bean at the end of that. Hence, my claim that suppression causes some form of drain.
I think the reason they got tired is because they were suppressing their ki close to the soldiers' level in order not to kill them, so they had to put some effort to beat them as they were close in power with them, which is why they got tired.

As for why Goku & Vegeta aren't using their base with SSG power state, it's easier to walk around at their base level rather than their SSG level, and it is also more fun for them to be weaker in their fights against weaker opponents. Imagine Goku & Vegeta being at SSG level against the U6 fighters (except Hit), it would have been really boring for them.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

User avatar
pacz360
I Live Here
Posts: 2542
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:38 am

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by pacz360 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:07 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:
theherodjl wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again
It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.
Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot
And lose to batman.

User avatar
pacz360
I Live Here
Posts: 2542
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:38 am

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by pacz360 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:14 pm

And no theres no two base crap people seem so desprate to push otherwise characters would've mention that in his fight against hit or any point of the series
Base goku stronger than ssj3 gotenks given copy vegeta who had the same powers of regular vegeta did the same with ease
Without powering up or anything in base you can argue whether or not there god level in base but trying to act like they recton it or something without it being implied in or out of universe is ridiculous

User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:40 pm

pacz360 wrote:And no theres no two base crap people seem so desprate to push otherwise characters would've mention that in his fight against hit or any point of the series
Base goku stronger than ssj3 gotenks given copy vegeta who had the same powers of regular vegeta did the same with ease
Without powering up or anything in base you can argue whether or not there god level in base but trying to act like they recton it or something without it being implied in or out of universe is ridiculous
You are telling me that Cabba, Piccolo, Kuririn, and base Gohan who still isn't Ultimate (yet is stronger than Ultimate according to you?!) being at god level is less stupid & ridiculous? Is it less stupid to think that the whole power scaling in Super is fucked up by the ass instead of taking a clue from an official video game & another clue from some freaking common sense? I mean, what the hell?

And it is implied. Super Saiyan Blue is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. By this definition, base Goku is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue is his regular Super Saiyan form. Yet why does he still turn gold after the fight with Freeza? Why is base Black stronger than SS3 Goku when he is supposed to be weaker than base Goku at the same time, even when he comes close to the level of gods through further power-ups? Why did Black's golden Super Saiyan form become pink when he drew out all of Goku's dormant powers? If base Black is so many hundreds of times stronger than base Goku & Vegeta, why is he at around the same level as SSB Goku & Vegeta in his SSR form (which is his version of SSB) and not many hundreds of times stronger than them? There are your implications.

Yes, it was never explained (only in one video-game), but many things about all the new forms in Super (Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage) aren't explained either, so is it really surprising?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

User avatar
Tectorman
Regular
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:56 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Tectorman wrote:The Z Fighters fought Frieza's army suppressed down to their level (well, closer to their level) because for whatever reason, they didn't want to kill any of them. And except for Jaco, they all took a Senzu bean at the end of that. Hence, my claim that suppression causes some form of drain.
I think the reason they got tired is because they were suppressing their ki close to the soldiers' level in order not to kill them, so they had to put some effort to beat them as they were close in power with them, which is why they got tired.
True, and under other circumstances, I would agree that that is one of the reasons, if not the sole reason, for everyone wanting a Senzu. But Frieza being able to control his power level but nevertheless needing suppression forms still has me wondering.

You are right about Goku and Vegeta not wanting their fights to be boring, so maybe I should give the "preference" reason more credit.
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!

User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:01 pm

Tectorman wrote:True, and under other circumstances, I would agree that that is one of the reasons, if not the sole reason, for everyone wanting a Senzu. But Frieza being able to control his power level but nevertheless needing suppression forms still has me wondering.
Suppressed or not, they still get tired. Piccolo needed a senzu when he was suppressed & Dr. Gero stole his power. They got tired because their fight was hard as a result from being suppressed, not because they were suppressed.

As for Freeza, he probably needed the forms because he couldn't control his power perfectly like Goku & co. do. He could only suppress it that much (around 3 million), and to suppress it even further he needed transformations.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

theherodjl
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1597
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:51 am

pacz360 wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:
theherodjl wrote:
It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.
Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot
And lose to batman.
And then Batman would go on to defeat Lex Luthor, Darkseid, Mongol, Imperiex, Mr. Mxy, and every other Superman villain under the sun because if you can defeat Superman then you a real rad dude. It only goes to show how powerful The Joker must be if he can defeat Batman, disregard the time he was killed by Superman because he was just jokering around then.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
pacz360
I Live Here
Posts: 2542
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:38 am

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by pacz360 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:07 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
pacz360 wrote:And no theres no two base crap people seem so desprate to push otherwise characters would've mention that in his fight against hit or any point of the series
Base goku stronger than ssj3 gotenks given copy vegeta who had the same powers of regular vegeta did the same with ease
Without powering up or anything in base you can argue whether or not there god level in base but trying to act like they recton it or something without it being implied in or out of universe is ridiculous
You are telling me that Cabba, Piccolo, Kuririn, and base Gohan who still isn't Ultimate (yet is stronger than Ultimate according to you?!) being at god level is less stupid & ridiculous? Is it less stupid to think that the whole power scaling in Super is fucked up by the ass instead of taking a clue from an official video game & another clue from some freaking common sense? I mean, what the hell?

And it is implied. Super Saiyan Blue is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. By this definition, base Goku is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue is his regular Super Saiyan form. Yet why does he still turn gold after the fight with Freeza? Why is base Black stronger than SS3 Goku when he is supposed to be weaker than base Goku at the same time, even when he comes close to the level of gods through further power-ups? Why did Black's golden Super Saiyan form become pink when he drew out all of Goku's dormant powers? If base Black is so many hundreds of times stronger than base Goku & Vegeta, why is he at around the same level as SSB Goku & Vegeta in his SSR form (which is his version of SSB) and not many hundreds of times stronger than them? There are your implications.

Yes, it was never explained (only in one video-game), but many things about all the new forms in Super (Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage) aren't explained either, so is it really surprising?
Gohan train with piccolo for 8 months and then trained again by end of the future trunks saga
Not to mention guys like champa commentating on how tough he was for surving a pitch from blue goku then have vegeta stating gohan has the higher potential outta him and goku despite both having blue.
Then goku even mentioning gohan potential at the start of the arc
Is the power scaling in super a mess oh absolutely
But I'm not going to buy some ridiculous Theory of two bases where the writers damn well aren't even implying in the story at all.

User avatar
Bulma's Foot Masseur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:48 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:04 pm

I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?

User avatar
Gog
I Live Here
Posts: 4099
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:33 am
Location: Dio's World.

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Gog » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:09 pm

Can't Goku and Vegeta transform into Saiyan Beyond God? Maybe when they transform into that they're stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and when they don't they're as strong as they where in the Buu saga.

User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:15 pm

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?
Goku said that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, so he probably unlocked the base with SSG state through training like Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, etc.

This is only in the anime continuity though, in the movie & manga continuities, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power just like Goku did.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

User avatar
Bulma's Foot Masseur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:48 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:51 pm

So wouldn't training to get there eradicate Vegeta's old base completely, or at least make it extremely close to the new one in power? I don't see how the contrast between pre and post-ritual Goku can exist with Vegeta when the anime implies he attained God power so naturally and gradually.

User avatar
Tectorman
Regular
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:06 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Tectorman wrote:True, and under other circumstances, I would agree that that is one of the reasons, if not the sole reason, for everyone wanting a Senzu. But Frieza being able to control his power level but nevertheless needing suppression forms still has me wondering.
Suppressed or not, they still get tired. Piccolo needed a senzu when he was suppressed & Dr. Gero stole his power. They got tired because their fight was hard as a result from being suppressed, not because they were suppressed.

As for Freeza, he probably needed the forms because he couldn't control his power perfectly like Goku & co. do. He could only suppress it that much (around 3 million), and to suppress it even further he needed transformations.
Well, there is something to that. In the U6 arc, it's revealed that the only reason Goku's able to combine SSB and Kaioken is because of SSB's ability of perfect ki control. The implication being that the other forms don't have that ability (though perfect ki control was obviously unnecessary in the case of Base, as he spent the first part of DBZ using Kaioken just fine). So SbG may have a similar limitation in how far it can go down, with the lesser forms being under that limit.
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!

User avatar
Tectorman
Regular
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:17 am

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?
How did he get SSB? Okay, that same way. Whether it's via Whis's training or his own efforts or having everyone go through the SSJG ritual (depending on which continuity we're looking at), I put Vegeta attaining SbG as a step along whatever path he took to get to SSB, either as a necessary step to SSB or an achievement incidental with SSB.
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:So wouldn't training to get there eradicate Vegeta's old base completely, or at least make it extremely close to the new one in power? I don't see how the contrast between pre and post-ritual Goku can exist with Vegeta when the anime implies he attained God power so naturally and gradually.
"Getting there" is just Vegeta going from not being able to use God-tier power in Base to being able to use God-tier power in Base (and from there, use SSB). He goes from one route to two routes, but there's no reason why the previous route goes away. The theory doesn't require any previous route to be eradicated because of how Vegeta got up there anymore than Goku's acquisition of SbG through the aftermath of the ritual got rid of his regular Base.

To borrow from this week's episode, it'd be like saying that because Krillin now has his new improved Taiyoken that he no longer has any idea how to do the original version. The original version may now be less effective so he doesn't bother to use it, but "not" does not equate to "can't".
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:This is only in the anime continuity though, in the movie & manga continuities, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power just like Goku did.
I don't remember the movie specifying how Vegeta got to SSB, nor do I remember SSJG being a thing for Vegeta in the manga. When were those established?
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!

User avatar
Darkprince410
I Live Here
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:47 am

Tectorman wrote:
I don't remember the movie specifying how Vegeta got to SSB, nor do I remember SSJG being a thing for Vegeta in the manga. When were those established?
They weren't. It was just the assumption following Vegeta's reveal of Ssj Blue in Revival of F (the movie) that he underwent the same overall process as Goku to absorb the Ssj God power, but it wasn't actually said that's what happened.

User avatar
Bulma's Foot Masseur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:48 pm

Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:11 am

Tectorman wrote:To borrow from this week's episode, it'd be like saying that because Krillin now has his new improved Taiyoken that he no longer has any idea how to do the original version. The original version may now be less effective so he doesn't bother to use it, but "not" does not equate to "can't".
Krillin also likely gradually built his way up to Taiyoken x100 by developing it in increments. If Goku's so impressed by Vegeta getting to SSJG on his own, then I don't see how Vegeta would just suddenly jump from Base to God Base without the original Base drastically rising to get him there (in a way that Goku's obviously didn't) due to the fact that it was incurred by training. Otherwise it's literally just the ritual but without the need of other participants, in which case...well, I guess? Is that what people are actually saying?

Post Reply