How strong is Base Goku?

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:00 pm

Should it be possible based on the old rules? Not really.

Are the old rules being applied as strictly as fans around these forums would like? Not really.

That's how a lot of these debates end up coming up in the first place. The actual power levels aren't as confusing as people think and are quite clear, generally speaking, in terms of basic conceptual tiers, it's just their importance has been downplayed in these kinds of instances to improve presentation and entertainment value.

Nobody really denies that Piccolo shouldn't have had any chance whatsoever in terms of power, but power wasn't the thing being stressed in that moment, was it?

However, it WAS stressed when Goku turned Super Saiyan against Frost........ but in a different way than people around here would've expected, because of preconceived notions of how power worked in the past compared to the current material.

The intent of things is the most important aspect nowadays, because the creators are playing looser with the logic to make things interesting.

===

It's sort of like a philosophical inquiry in terms of "ought" VS. "is".

What "ought" to happen is that Piccolo should've been completely mud-stomped because skill doesn't matter in the past.

What "did" happen is that Piccolo nearly won using skill and strategy because it matters in the present.

===

But to bring it back to base Goku, all we know is that what "is" the case is that Goku surpassed his previous power in the past, and can reach the level of gods with SSB.

What "ought" to be the case is that Goku should mud-stomp everyone in any form because skill doesn't matter in the past.

What "is" the case is that Goku can lose to strategy because it matters in the present.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:16 am

TheMikado wrote:You are incorrect, you are mixing anime and manga continuities. According to the anime SSB has perfect ki control, and according to those in this forum they can perfectly tune that power output to whatever they want because its a perfected form. Basically going SSJ in the anime would waste more energy because the form lacks perfect ki control. As for how strong Piccolo is, even if he is SSJ3 Gotenks level he should still be FAR below even base form Vegeta/Goku based on the copy water arc, meaning they still should have been able to one shot Frost.

I'm pretty sure that part of this exchange was showing Piccolo was stronger than the base sayians, but we know he was definitely SSJ2/SPC levels at best due to the context of the previous arc with Frieza. I'm not sure where the 5 years of training comes from when we have a recent measurement of his approximate strength.
Prefect Ki Control does not equal cheap transformations. If it did then why did Vegetto revert so quickly? There is still an initial cost with transforming into the forms and the cost for the upkeep of the transformations can still be costly. Perfect Ki Control is good for Goku to be able to use his Kaioken. But other than that it doesn't have to offer any other benefit.

If it were truly the case that SSJB was superior in cost to other forms why would they even bother transforming just into SSJ? Numerous times throughout the story, specifically the tournament portions, they have mentioned about Goku and Vegeta conserving their power. How are they doing that if they are, more often than not, using the transformation that wastes more energy?

You're missing the point with Frost. Piccolo was stated to still be vastly outclassed. Goku told him this. That's why Piccolo had to resort to strategy. Goku said that he had weakened Frost but not enough that Piccolo could have had a more traditional fight. So no, they wouldn't necessarily be able to one shot Frost. As I said, Frost may be around Goku and Vegeta's base levels. But Piccolo should still be able to do something against someone that strong. Ki attacks have always proved to amplify the users base Ki well past their limits. Piccolo in the Saiyan arc against Raditz produced a Makankosappo that was 3x his battle power. Tenshinhan managed to keep Cell at bay with a Shin Kikoho. Vegeta blew up half of Perfect Cell while being totally outclassed. Vegeta fended off a KKx3 Kamehameha with his regular Gyarikku Hou.

Piccolo was stronger than the base Saiyans in the Boo arc, that is clear. But no exchange after accurately shows his strength in relation to Goku and Vegeta. Only, possibly, Gohan can be said to be around Goku now with the exchanges we saw and that is still questionable because Goku could still be holding back. Gohan and Piccolo have a lot of off-screen training but we don't know what they do in regards to that.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:21 pm

Hitiro wrote:
TheMikado wrote:You are incorrect, you are mixing anime and manga continuities. According to the anime SSB has perfect ki control, and according to those in this forum they can perfectly tune that power output to whatever they want because its a perfected form. Basically going SSJ in the anime would waste more energy because the form lacks perfect ki control. As for how strong Piccolo is, even if he is SSJ3 Gotenks level he should still be FAR below even base form Vegeta/Goku based on the copy water arc, meaning they still should have been able to one shot Frost.

I'm pretty sure that part of this exchange was showing Piccolo was stronger than the base sayians, but we know he was definitely SSJ2/SPC levels at best due to the context of the previous arc with Frieza. I'm not sure where the 5 years of training comes from when we have a recent measurement of his approximate strength.
Prefect Ki Control does not equal cheap transformations. If it did then why did Vegetto revert so quickly? There is still an initial cost with transforming into the forms and the cost for the upkeep of the transformations can still be costly. Perfect Ki Control is good for Goku to be able to use his Kaioken. But other than that it doesn't have to offer any other benefit.

If it were truly the case that SSJB was superior in cost to other forms why would they even bother transforming just into SSJ? Numerous times throughout the story, specifically the tournament portions, they have mentioned about Goku and Vegeta conserving their power. How are they doing that if they are, more often than not, using the transformation that wastes more energy?

You're missing the point with Frost. Piccolo was stated to still be vastly outclassed. Goku told him this. That's why Piccolo had to resort to strategy. Goku said that he had weakened Frost but not enough that Piccolo could have had a more traditional fight. So no, they wouldn't necessarily be able to one shot Frost. As I said, Frost may be around Goku and Vegeta's base levels. But Piccolo should still be able to do something against someone that strong. Ki attacks have always proved to amplify the users base Ki well past their limits. Piccolo in the Saiyan arc against Raditz produced a Makankosappo that was 3x his battle power. Tenshinhan managed to keep Cell at bay with a Shin Kikoho. Vegeta blew up half of Perfect Cell while being totally outclassed. Vegeta fended off a KKx3 Kamehameha with his regular Gyarikku Hou.

Piccolo was stronger than the base Saiyans in the Boo arc, that is clear. But no exchange after accurately shows his strength in relation to Goku and Vegeta. Only, possibly, Gohan can be said to be around Goku now with the exchanges we saw and that is still questionable because Goku could still be holding back. Gohan and Piccolo have a lot of off-screen training but we don't know what they do in regards to that.
Indeed. In the episode where Goku had Ki Onset Syndrome, where his Ki was going out of whack due to using the Kaio-ken with SSB, he stated that even Piccolo could beat him. I'd say that at least makes it highly probably that, at that point in the series, Piccolo was still beneath Goku and Vegeta's base power, which means Gohan was as well. Whether the two managed to get closer after that is up to interpretation, but that particular part I highlighted is pretty undeniable.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:53 pm

I haven't read this thread in a week, and I think an important thing to remember is that ... we all get too caught up in the details. We can't see the forest for the trees.

We have three options:

1) Goku's Base is around his Buu Arc level.

2) Goku's Base is around Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

3) Goku has a weak Base and his SSG merged into a second stronger Base.


Take your pick. Whichever assists the story consistency the most seems correct to me.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:11 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:I haven't read this thread in a week, and I think an important thing to remember is that ... we all get too caught up in the details. We can't see the forest for the trees.

We have three options:

1) Goku's Base is around his Buu Arc level.

2) Goku's Base is around Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

3) Goku has a weak Base and his SSG merged into a second stronger Base.


Take your pick. Whichever assists the story consistency the most seems correct to me.
Where the hell's the "Goku has a stronger base but all his normal forms are below SSG" option?

Because that one is the most heavily supported one by evidence/in-universe inferences alone. I still fail to see evidence for Two-Base Theory that definitively supports it, and Buu Saga levels ignores everything that's happened in the story.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:20 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:I haven't read this thread in a week, and I think an important thing to remember is that ... we all get too caught up in the details. We can't see the forest for the trees.

We have three options:

1) Goku's Base is around his Buu Arc level.

2) Goku's Base is around Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

3) Goku has a weak Base and his SSG merged into a second stronger Base.


Take your pick. Whichever assists the story consistency the most seems correct to me.
1) Not really Buu Saga level, but Buu Saga level augmented by his various training sessions would be more like it. But yeah, it has to build off his level in the Buu arc. So if you make him 100 million by the Buu saga (just below having the ability to defeat Freeza without transforming), I believe he could arrive at dunno, 250-300 million in base during current events.

2) It is true, but apparently only in the RoF and Potaufeu arcs. Unless you think base Cabba and base Future Trunks are also post-God tier, which they cannot be.

3) This would be probably the most convenient to believe, though Goku utilizing SSj forms, which are much less efficient than jsut powering up in base, seems to contradict it. The only way we could get definite confirmation would be Goku saying that "he is now going to tap into his god power" or something denoting using a "Beyond God" base.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:31 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:I haven't read this thread in a week, and I think an important thing to remember is that ... we all get too caught up in the details. We can't see the forest for the trees.

We have three options:

1) Goku's Base is around his Buu Arc level.

2) Goku's Base is around Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

3) Goku has a weak Base and his SSG merged into a second stronger Base.


Take your pick. Whichever assists the story consistency the most seems correct to me.
It all depends on whether you believe that Beerus was scared of SSJB + KKx10 when he saw it. To be perfectly honest. I say this because if he wasn't scared then SSJB must be weaker than 10% of Beerus' power. If he is scared then SSJB can be higher than 10% It's a bit confusing the way he reacted to Goku using this when I saw it. You could say that both him and Champa thought that Goku was ridiculously strong but that doesn't really go anywhere after the tournament. So maybe he isn't and they were just surprised?

But, if Goku's SSJB isn't above 10% then I would like to think that SSJG is actually stronger and that Goku didn't make the whole of SSJG's power his own, his power perhaps stabalized after the Beerus fight and put his base at Boo arc levels of power. It would make sense how Vegeta could catch up so quickly then. I mean. Vegeta getting a couple hundred times stronger is still pretty insane. But in comparison to him getting thousands of times stronger it seems more logical.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:36 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:I haven't read this thread in a week, and I think an important thing to remember is that ... we all get too caught up in the details. We can't see the forest for the trees.

We have three options:

1) Goku's Base is around his Buu Arc level.

2) Goku's Base is around Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

3) Goku has a weak Base and his SSG merged into a second stronger Base.


Take your pick. Whichever assists the story consistency the most seems correct to me.
Where the hell's the "Goku has a stronger base but all his normal forms are below SSG" option?

Because that one is the most heavily supported one by evidence/in-universe inferences alone. I still fail to see evidence for Two-Base Theory that definitively supports it, and Buu Saga levels ignores everything that's happened in the story.
It isn't there because the story doesn't support it. We know he had a SSJ that kept all of SSG's power. The Two-Base theory contends that all his normal forms do remain below SSG levels, but that he also has a SSJ-looking form at or above SSG. Not to mention how the very last thing he did in his fight with Beerus was stopping that last universe-busting orb as a mere Saiyan (or something that looked like a mere Saiyan).

The series later shows him still using SSJ2 and SSJ3. SSJ2 and SSJ3 are still demonstrated to be above the SSJ shown in those same scenes. If he only has the one SSJ (as opposed to two SSJs, one normal and the other explicitly confirmed to have SSG's power), then that can only mean that his SSJ3 is weaker than SSG and stronger than his SSJ while his SSJ is just as strong as his SSG.

Just in case anyone missed that, I'll say it again with simple math (C is SSJ3, A is SSJ, 1 is SSG).

C>A
A=1
C<1
Solve for C.

I can resolve that by acknowledging two different SSJs, but I can't even imagine the mental hoops that would successfully resolve that otherwise.

And then let's talk about Trunks. Before they go to the future, he spars with his father. He's at SSJ2. He wants Vegeta to go SSJ3 like Goku had done earlier, but Vegeta instead shows SSB. Trunks refers to it as an unidentifiable pressure but not the same kind of energy he's usually able to sense. Ergo, SSJ2 Trunks is at or close to the threshold where he would be able to start sensing godly ki. And just a few episodes before, it was confirmed that SSJ2 is still several dozens of times stronger than Base. Except, Vegeta and Goku have long since demonstrated the ability to sense godly ki even in Base. So how does that work out?

Or, again, we can demonstrate that confusion with math (A is Base, X is SSJ2).

A>X
X=100A
Solve for A.

I can resolve that by saying the Bases Goku and Vegeta have that enable them to sense godly ki are not the same Bases as the ones they have to also have in order for their SSJ2s to be even with Trunks's. Frankly, the math to make that work out without two bases borders on the Lovecraftian.
Saturnine wrote:3) This would be probably the most convenient to believe, though Goku utilizing SSj forms, which are much less efficient than jsut powering up in base, seems to contradict it. The only way we could get definite confirmation would be Goku saying that "he is now going to tap into his god power" or something denoting using a "Beyond God" base.
"Convenient." I actually agree with that choice of words, in that there's no explicit proof, it's merely a theory that happens to fit the facts. But that's what let Spock deduce the existence of a Bird-of-Prey that could fire while cloaked, so a lack of explicit proof isn't really an obstacle for me. It's absence of evidence, which is not evidence of absence.

And yes, Goku and Vegeta's renewed use of the lesser forms without an explicitly stated good reason to do so (as opposed to just fighting at that same level of power as a suppressed SbG) does raise questions. But all that means is that until we have a good stated reason, the best we can do is take what we know from elsewhere in the series and see if it can apply here as an explanation.

I previously had a notion that suppressing past a certain point makes the endeavor taxing. It's also been suggested that their reason for using the lesser forms was simply to get a more entertaining, more even fight out of their opponents (especially in Goku's case; this is something that other characters have called him out on multiple times).

Here's another: when characters fight, others can sense when they are or aren't at full power (at least full power for that particular form). So let's say Goku needs to fight someone at the level of his SSJ2. He can either use SSJ2, or he can use SbG powered down to that level. One will register as full power, the other will let his opponent know that he can be stronger. So if he doesn't want to let on that he's got way more left over, which is the better option?

Before the U6 tournament, their only opponents were each other (for sparring), Whis (also for training), or Frieza (and his remaining henchmen). None of them required the precaution of keeping their higher power hidden (not in the training since they and Whis already knew, not Frieza's henchmen since they were all comparably weak and not worth the stratagem, and not Frieza himself since he started in his final form and so was already above everything they had short of SbG and SSB). U6 represents the first time they were up against multiple opponents of unknown strength where they would want to not tip their hands.

Is that THE explanation? No idea. Probably not. But is it plausible and in keeping with everything else? Yes, at least so far.
Hitiro wrote:It all depends on whether you believe that Beerus was scared of SSJB + KKx10 when he saw it. To be perfectly honest. I say this because if he wasn't scared then SSJB must be weaker than 10% of Beerus' power. If he is scared then SSJB can be higher than 10% It's a bit confusing the way he reacted to Goku using this when I saw it. You could say that both him and Champa thought that Goku was ridiculously strong but that doesn't really go anywhere after the tournament. So maybe he isn't and they were just surprised?

But, if Goku's SSJB isn't above 10% then I would like to think that SSJG is actually stronger and that Goku didn't make the whole of SSJG's power his own, his power perhaps stabalized after the Beerus fight and put his base at Boo arc levels of power. It would make sense how Vegeta could catch up so quickly then. I mean. Vegeta getting a couple hundred times stronger is still pretty insane. But in comparison to him getting thousands of times stronger it seems more logical.
Two issues with that.

First, the narrator in the anime outright tells us that SSB surpassed SSG. Even if he stabilized his normal forms back down below SSG, SSB is still confirmed above that 10%, and if Kaiokenx10 multiplies all of it, then Goku must have surpassed Beerus. And it's not a matter of Beerus and Champa being worried or not. Later during the Zamasu arc, we're told that SSR Goku Black is the strongest unfused character short of Beerus himself. So he must be above the SSBKKx10.

The math doesn't work out with Kaioken working normally (X is SSB, 1 is 10% Beerus, 10 is 100% Beerus, 10X is SSBKKx10, R is SSR).

X>1
10X<R
R<10
Solve for X.

I resolve that issue with Kaioken not multiplying all of SSB's power, but merely a portion of it. Vegeta's lack of comment on the matter is not an issue since it can't actually be confirmed that he knows how the Kaioken works (I mean, yes, he knows in general terms that it makes the user more powerful, but not that it specifically multiplies the user's power). Hit's comments can be chalked up to a difference between what he can sense and what is actually happening.

Is that playing fast and loose with who can sense what and how which techniques work once godly ki is introduced? Oh my goodness, yes. I still find it preferable to Lovecraftian math.

Second, it's never stated that Goku lost power or stabilized down below SSG. That is only what you have to say happened behind the scenes in order to resolve the Kaioken business.

Which, beyond the whole "SSR > SSBKKx10" and "SSB > SSG" things, isn't a problem for the anime itself. It suffers from the same "absence of evidence" as the two-base theory, but I can't really fault it on that principle. It does, however, conflict with the other depictions of those same characters (the movies and the manga). In the movies, Goku and Vegeta working together are confirmed to be enough to defeat Beerus. In the manga, it's also confirmed that SSB > SSG. Furthermore, the manga has no Kaioken to muddle anything up.

The notion of "SSB > SSG" conflicts with the movies and the manga. The major issue with that is that no single source has primacy. Rather, they're all their own interpretations of Toriyama's original storyline. And given that three out of three versions have SSB stronger than SSG and two out of three versions don't have Kaioken even being a thing to raise doubts, it raises strong questions about how powerful SSBKKx10 can even be for the anime to stay the same story as the other versions. My method of making Kaioken work off of a much smaller increment of SSB's full power (and therefore making the whole thing not that much more powerful than just SSB by itself) sidesteps the issue.

And most important of all, it means I don't have to worry about how the story will turn out next. What do you think will happen if it were to turn out that Vegeta (who still lacks Kaioken) is stated to almost be a match for Beerus, that Goku remains as strong as Vegeta in the same forms, and that Goku himself still has not surpassed Beerus (which, given the manga, is not an implausible turn of events nor even difficult to imagine). What happens then? Will we be having this conversation again in a year, this time with people saying that SSBKKx10 not only isn't a thing for some inexplicable reason, but that it never was at all?

"That's not how the fight with Hit played out." "Clearly you weren't paying attention to the point of that scene." "No, Goku did not use SSBKK to knock Merged Zamasu's halo out of commission; your lying eyes just deceived you."

Back when it was just the movies, no one had any doubts about SbG being a thing. Did we know everything about how it and SSB worked? No. But the basic fact of SbG's existence was not in doubt. Now, we're in this thread. What other threads disputing the existence of what we currently do not doubt do we have to look forward to?
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:50 pm

I have an irrational hatred of Two-Base Theory, no denying that.

But what exactly does it solve? Perceived issues with powerscaling? Characters being stronger than they should have any right to be?

And where does writing intent come in? Is the intent that Goku and Vegeta have super-powerful forms separate from their normal forms that they access that isn't SSB that is only ever used in very specific circumstances, thus painting opponents they face at lower levels as weaker for the audience's own suspension of disbelief?

I certainly can't wrap my head around the intent of the theory for the story, as it's much too complicated and cherry-picking-predicated to be something that the writers would come up with. Yeah, the writing for the anime is rather simplistic, but in being so, basic concepts hold much more water than specific analyses by us.

It doesn't add up mathematically with the conceptual intent of the episodes presented, and it doesn't add up spiritually with Goku and Vegeta's penchant for growing stronger overall.

===

I get that there are inconsistencies, but are they really so jarring that we have to come up with a specific theory predicated on creating separate power-scales to attempt to make sense of it all?

Why not just do things on a case-by-case basis, and look at things individually before trying to come up with a catch-all theory?

Not to mention that the above is Watsonian reasoning, in-universe, when a lot of the problems require Doylist reasoning, real world logic.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:37 pm

That's exactly what I've been proposing. Look at it on a case by case basis.

This is precisely what users like God Movement cannot understand. Just because there was a statement that Goku absorbed god power into base, they think it's a definite fact with no room for dispute. This kind of mental inflexibility is really an obstacle, because by assuming something as fact you close yourself off from any evidence of change.

You can't go off statements alone. Actions speak louder than words. Also, saying SSj Goku is stronger than SbG Goku like he was in RoF goes in contradiction with another statement, namely that "when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into a Super Saiyan [Super Saiyan Blue is the result]". If anything, bringing back regular Super Saiyan was an attempt to rectify the previous decision to make base Goku much stronger than SSj3 Vegetto, because it would remove any tension from the story moving forward. They had to come up with a way of demonstrating that Goku isn't in the god realm for the time being, regular SSj and even its subsequent levels seemed like the way to do it. So if SSj is not in the god realm, neither cannot base.

The manga rectified this by bringing back SSj God. The anime has brought in no such replacement, which leaves a certain conceptual void. Still, if in the manga base Goku and Vegeta are not SSj God level, there is no reason to think they are in the anime, except where they are stated or directly demonstrated to be. These instances are: RoF, Potaufeu (base Vegeta > SSj3 Gotenks, impossible without the god realm), arguably U6 Tournament where Goku stands up to Hit in base. In all other instances Goku and Vegeta are not godly in base, unless you believe base Cabba and Future Trunks are > SSj3 Vegetto level.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:08 am

People are trying to keep Buu-era Goku relevant to make everyone else's power levels seem realistic, when Android 17 and plenty of other characters have shown that that's completely unnecessary. I think a valid explanation is that Goku absorbed some amount of Super Saiyan God's power with Vegeta catching up to him via his own training, increasing his Base, increasing his Super Saiyan forms, and attaining Super Saiyan Blue while keeping them all useful. The writers clearly want Super Saiyan 1-3 to stay relevant and remain a somewhat-steady progression on the path to Blue, so believing they're the same things they were on King Kai's planet against Beerus is just going to get you proven wrong if it already hasn't. It just takes one instance of a really strong Base Goku turning SSJ1 before Blue.

The Two-Base theory rests on the rocky foundation of Super Saiyan 1 Goku being weaker than Goku in a certain Base form. Believing that Goku either absorbed a portion of SSJG's power or even that he didn't absorb any of it and got it back via training (just like Vegeta did) ensures Goku's Super Saiyan forms are stronger than the Base he'll always be fighting in while ensuring that Super Saiyan Blue is far stronger still. It also leads to greater compatibility with the manga, in case Super Saiyan Red comes back in the anime which is a real possibility.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:39 am

Saturnine wrote:That's exactly what I've been proposing. Look at it on a case by case basis.

This is precisely what users like God Movement cannot understand. Just because there was a statement that Goku absorbed god power into base, they think it's a definite fact with no room for dispute. This kind of mental inflexibility is really an obstacle, because by assuming something as fact you close yourself off from any evidence of change.

You can't go off statements alone. Actions speak louder than words. Also, saying SSj Goku is stronger than SbG Goku like he was in RoF goes in contradiction with another statement, namely that "when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into a Super Saiyan [Super Saiyan Blue is the result]". If anything, bringing back regular Super Saiyan was an attempt to rectify the previous decision to make base Goku much stronger than SSj3 Vegetto, because it would remove any tension from the story moving forward. They had to come up with a way of demonstrating that Goku isn't in the god realm for the time being, regular SSj and even its subsequent levels seemed like the way to do it. So if SSj is not in the god realm, neither can base.

The manga rectified this by bringing back SSj God. The anime has brought in no such replacement, which leaves a certain conceptual void. Still, if in the manga base Goku and Vegeta are not SSj God level, there is no reason to think they are in the anime, except where they are stated or directly demonstrated to be. These instances are: RoF, Potaufeu (base Vegeta > SSj3 Gotenks, impossible without the god realm), arguably U6 Tournament where Goku stands up to Hit in base. In all other instances Goku and Vegeta are not godly in base, unless you believe base Cabba and Future Trunks are > SSj3 Vegetto level.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Hitiro » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:11 am

Tectorman wrote:
Two issues with that.

First, the narrator in the anime outright tells us that SSB surpassed SSG. Even if he stabilized his normal forms back down below SSG, SSB is still confirmed above that 10%, and if Kaiokenx10 multiplies all of it, then Goku must have surpassed Beerus. And it's not a matter of Beerus and Champa being worried or not. Later during the Zamasu arc, we're told that SSR Goku Black is the strongest unfused character short of Beerus himself. So he must be above the SSBKKx10.
Yes, the narrator tells us that SSJB surpasses SSJG but it doesn't tell us how. You're assuming that it must mean in power but we know that SSG has the downside of only being useable for a short period of time due to how the transformation is obtained. SSJB does away with that issue and the method needed to transform so yes, it would surpass SSJG in aspects. Also, I do not recall it ever being said that SSJR Goku Black was the strongest unfused character. What episode? I also find it hard to believe that SSJBKKx10 Goku is inferior to him. Considering, you know, Goku beat on him several times without KKx10 involved. In fact, the only time he did end up using KK was when Zamasu and Black had fused.
Tectorman wrote:The math doesn't work out with Kaioken working normally (X is SSB, 1 is 10% Beerus, 10 is 100% Beerus, 10X is SSBKKx10, R is SSR).

X>1
10X<R
R<10
Solve for X.

I resolve that issue with Kaioken not multiplying all of SSB's power, but merely a portion of it. Vegeta's lack of comment on the matter is not an issue since it can't actually be confirmed that he knows how the Kaioken works (I mean, yes, he knows in general terms that it makes the user more powerful, but not that it specifically multiplies the user's power). Hit's comments can be chalked up to a difference between what he can sense and what is actually happening.
If you're saying that Hits comment is incorrect because he can't sense God Ki I would have to disagree. Because we know from FnF that people of a certain level can't sense Goku when he transforms into SSJB. Kuririn states that they can't sense him any more. So that suggests that all of his Ki is God Ki. And if that is the case the only thing Hit could be sense at that moment was Goku's God Ki. Which is fine because Hit was clearly above the level required to be able to sense God Ki. As Whis said that both Goku and Vegeta had surpassed the required level to sense God Ki in their base forms. Hit is much stronger than their base forms so he should have no difficulty learning the ability himself.
Tectorman wrote:Is that playing fast and loose with who can sense what and how which techniques work once godly ki is introduced? Oh my goodness, yes. I still find it preferable to Lovecraftian math.
I would agree if the normal portion of Goku's Ki could still be sensed when he enters SSJB but from what we have seen from the story his whole Ki supply gets transformed into God Ki once he transforms. Much like when he first entered SSJG, the characters noted a similar effect then, as well.
Tectorman wrote:Second, it's never stated that Goku lost power or stabilized down below SSG. That is only what you have to say happened behind the scenes in order to resolve the Kaioken business.
I never said it was stated. I'm just saying that the only way to justify his base and regular SSJ form being weaker than his SSJG form would be for him to have lost some Ki after the fight with Beerus. And implicitly we could argue that because Gohan could keep up with Goku while Goku was in his base form. If Goku had kept all of the power then somehow Gohan must have levelled up his base form to SSJG levels too. Correct?
Tectorman wrote:Which, beyond the whole "SSR > SSBKKx10" and "SSB > SSG" things, isn't a problem for the anime itself. It suffers from the same "absence of evidence" as the two-base theory, but I can't really fault it on that principle. It does, however, conflict with the other depictions of those same characters (the movies and the manga). In the movies, Goku and Vegeta working together are confirmed to be enough to defeat Beerus. In the manga, it's also confirmed that SSB > SSG. Furthermore, the manga has no Kaioken to muddle anything up.
But again, there would have to be a reason why characters like Gohan can keep up with their base forms. That is completely impossible when you consider that Beerus didn't have to use even 10% of his power to wipe the floor with Gohan and the others and SSJG would have to be above 10% for Beerus to even entertain it. Why would Beerus like to fight an opponent who was the same level as Vegeta was? He already experienced that. So, justifying a power decrease is more than doing it to fix the Kaioken multiplier. It is also to fix power inconsistencies between a few characters. Like I also said, it is much more believeable that Vegeta trained to get to a Goku, who lost some of the Ki afterwards, than a Goku who retained all the Ki.
Tectorman wrote:The notion of "SSB > SSG" conflicts with the movies and the manga. The major issue with that is that no single source has primacy. Rather, they're all their own interpretations of Toriyama's original storyline. And given that three out of three versions have SSB stronger than SSG and two out of three versions don't have Kaioken even being a thing to raise doubts, it raises strong questions about how powerful SSBKKx10 can even be for the anime to stay the same story as the other versions. My method of making Kaioken work off of a much smaller increment of SSB's full power (and therefore making the whole thing not that much more powerful than just SSB by itself) sidesteps the issue.
I think your method actually creates more issues. You're introducing a logic into the universe that characters can now only sense portions of God Ki, unless you're saying that it only increases regular Ki which I said was impossible earlier due to how transformations work. Introducing such logic seems really sketchy to me. I would much rather believe that Goku's battle power tailed off after his fight with Beerus then introduce a new mechanic into the world of dragon ball which says that characters can only sense portions of people's Ki now. It also seems weird to introduce a mechanic where now Kaioken only works with a portion of someone's Ki. In fact, that means you're introducing two things into the story. One is that Kaioken only multiplies off of a increment of SSJB's power and the second is that certain individuals can only sense increments of SSJB's power. Which is a lot more than just assuming that Goku's power stabilized after the fight with Beerus.
Tectorman wrote:And most important of all, it means I don't have to worry about how the story will turn out next. What do you think will happen if it were to turn out that Vegeta (who still lacks Kaioken) is stated to almost be a match for Beerus, that Goku remains as strong as Vegeta in the same forms, and that Goku himself still has not surpassed Beerus (which, given the manga, is not an implausible turn of events nor even difficult to imagine). What happens then? Will we be having this conversation again in a year, this time with people saying that SSBKKx10 not only isn't a thing for some inexplicable reason, but that it never was at all?
That's a "should of, could of, would of" situation. It could go down that route, like you say, but as of right now we don't know how the story is going to play out. If it does play out that way then obviously what I said wouldn't work. But at the moment I feel it's the most plausible. And as far as your method is concerned it has a few issues itself which I think you need to rectify if you want to convince me it is the best way.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:03 pm

The 2 base theory has been debunked as nonsense. Don't know why people won't let it go. Goku's base power is up there with higher tier Boo arc powers like Pure Boo and Ultimate Gohan.

SSJ Goku during BOG possessed the power of SSG. Super Saiyan with God's crimson radiance surpasses Super Saiyan God and is the stepping stone to Super Saiyan Blue. After training, that particular Super Saiyan state evolved into Super Saiyan Blue.

We already saw this with Goku Black in the manga. His Super Saiyan state kept getting stronger and stronger, then evolved into Rose. People are making it seem like Goku held back against Beerus by not using his higher Super Saiyan forms.

No, that isn't a variation of the 2 base theory. Super Saiyan with God power is basically just an incomplete version of Super Saiyan Blue. They aren't really different. They are both "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God becoming a Super Saiyan".
After Goku mastered his God-powered Super Saiyan and evolved it into Blue, he was still shown to be able to access his basic Super Saiyan state without god power. Super Saiyan w/ God power doesn't exist anymore. It became Super Saiyan Blue.

Super Saiyan Blue>Super Saiyan(God-powered)>Super Saiyan God>Super Saiyan 3>Super Saiyan 2>Super Saiyan

And no, Goku never got multifolds stronger at any point ever considering that Goku during BOG was good enough for Beerus to use close to 70% of his power. Yes, the movie counts since all of the media(manga, anime, movies) supplement each other.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:10 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:The 2 base theory has been debunked as nonsense. Don't know why people won't let it go. Goku's base power is up there with higher tier Boo arc powers like Pure Boo and Ultimate Gohan.

SSJ Goku during BOG possessed the power of SSG. Super Saiyan with God's crimson radiance surpasses Super Saiyan God and is the stepping stone to Super Saiyan Blue. After training, that particular Super Saiyan state evolved into Super Saiyan Blue.

We already saw this with Goku Black in the manga. His Super Saiyan state kept getting stronger and stronger, then evolved into Rose. People are making it seem like Goku held back against Beerus by not using his higher Super Saiyan forms.

No, that isn't a variation of the 2 base theory. Super Saiyan with God power is basically just an incomplete version of Super Saiyan Blue. They aren't really different. They are both "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God becoming a Super Saiyan".
After Goku mastered his God-powered Super Saiyan and evolved it into Blue, he was still shown to be able to access his basic Super Saiyan state without god power. Super Saiyan w/ God power doesn't exist anymore. It became Super Saiyan Blue.

Super Saiyan Blue>Super Saiyan(God-powered)>Super Saiyan God>Super Saiyan 3>Super Saiyan 2>Super Saiyan

And no, Goku never got multifolds stronger at any point ever considering that Goku during BOG was good enough for Beerus to use close to 70% of his power. Yes, the movie counts since all of the media(manga, anime, movies) supplement each other.
The movie is not in the same continuity as the anime. It got retconned later. Unless you can somehow reconcile SSj God Goku being at 60% of Beerus and SSj Blue with Kaioken x10 still being weaker than Beerus.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:52 pm

Saturnine wrote: The movie is not in the same continuity as the anime. It got retconned later. Unless you can somehow reconcile SSj God Goku being at 60% of Beerus and SSj Blue with Kaioken x10 still being weaker than Beerus.
There is no retcon. Rage boosted Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10%.

All of the media supplement each other. SSJG Goku doesn't have to be 60% of Beerus. The numbers that Toriyama gave is simply how they would compare on a scale, not exact percentages and they were just random estimates that he gave off the top of his head when questioned.

Goku just has to be capable of making Beerus use close to 70% as stated in the movie. As far as SSB Kaioken is concerned, nothing indicates that Goku was weaker than Beerus using a x10 Kaioken.
The x2 Kaioken was enough to scare Beerus and make Whis call him out on potentially being in trouble against it.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:28 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:The 2 base theory has been debunked as nonsense. Don't know why people won't let it go. Goku's base power is up there with higher tier Boo arc powers like Pure Boo and Ultimate Gohan.

SSJ Goku during BOG possessed the power of SSG. Super Saiyan with God's crimson radiance surpasses Super Saiyan God and is the stepping stone to Super Saiyan Blue. After training, that particular Super Saiyan state evolved into Super Saiyan Blue.

We already saw this with Goku Black in the manga. His Super Saiyan state kept getting stronger and stronger, then evolved into Rose. People are making it seem like Goku held back against Beerus by not using his higher Super Saiyan forms.

No, that isn't a variation of the 2 base theory. Super Saiyan with God power is basically just an incomplete version of Super Saiyan Blue. They aren't really different. They are both "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God becoming a Super Saiyan".
After Goku mastered his God-powered Super Saiyan and evolved it into Blue, he was still shown to be able to access his basic Super Saiyan state without god power. Super Saiyan w/ God power doesn't exist anymore. It became Super Saiyan Blue.

Super Saiyan Blue>Super Saiyan(God-powered)>Super Saiyan God>Super Saiyan 3>Super Saiyan 2>Super Saiyan

And no, Goku never got multifolds stronger at any point ever considering that Goku during BOG was good enough for Beerus to use close to 70% of his power. Yes, the movie counts since all of the media(manga, anime, movies) supplement each other.
I agree with you about Super Saiyan Goku from BoG... but Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form as well, and not just some of it. It was stated in the movie that his power had barely decreased, and it was shown in the FnF manga that he still had the power. Then there is the fact that he & Vegeta were stronger than Final Form Freeza, SS3 Gotenks, and Slim Boo, something that can only be possible if he has the power of SSG. Goku Black was also above SS3 level, and eventually came close to SSB level after further power-ups, while SSR made him stronger, yet still close to SSB. Sounds like SSR gives him the same boost that Goku & Vegeta get from SSB when they have the power of SSG in their base forms. And, SSB/R is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God... this means that their golden Super Saiyan form is replaced, like we saw with Black in the manga.

And yet, there are instances where Goku & Vegeta appear to be at their regular level in their base forms (like vs base Gohan or Kuririn), and they can also use their golden Super Saiyan forms (and God in the manga). And then there is Black, Black is stronger than their base/SS/2/3 forms in his base form, yet he is supposed to be getting closer & closer to Goku's original power before the body-change... how does this make sense?

So these appear to be Goku's forms in Super (and Vegeta's for the most part):

Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Super Saiyan God (unable to use on his own it in the anime)
Base with SSG power (slightly weaker than SSG & no god ki, was stuck in this form from the end of BoG to the beginning of U6 arc, learned how to control it after training, abandoned it in the manga in favor of SSG)
Super Saiyan with SSG power (as strong as SSG & no god ki, evolved into SSB through training)
Super Saiyan Blue
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:52 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: I agree with you about Super Saiyan Goku from BoG... but Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form as well, and not just some of it. It was stated in the movie that his power had barely decreased, and it was shown in the FnF manga that he still had the power.
Beerus is talking about Goku's power as a whole, not his base form specifically. His overall power isn't much weaker than SSJG after reverting. Goku didn't have the chance to evolve SSJG's power as an SSJ in the movie like he did in Super, hence he needed SSJG at the end of the film to stop the Sphere of Destruction.

He could only use SSJG's full power as an SSJ. He has only had one base in the series and he possessed an SSJ form with all of SSJG's power. That evolved to Blue and he can still use the basic Super Saiyan. The basic Super Saiyan is multiplying the power of his base form. It isn't granting him more of SSJG's power.
Then there is the fact that he & Vegeta were stronger than Final Form Freeza, SS3 Gotenks, and Slim Boo, something that can only be possible if he has the power of SSG. Goku Black was also above SS3 level, and eventually came close to SSB level after further power-ups, while SSR made him stronger, yet still close to SSB. Sounds like SSR gives him the same boost that Goku & Vegeta get from SSB when they have the power of SSG in their base forms. And, SSB/R is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God... this means that their golden Super Saiyan form is replaced, like we saw with Black in the manga.

And yet, there are instances where Goku & Vegeta appear to be at their regular level in their base forms (like vs base Gohan or Kuririn), and they can also use their golden Super Saiyan forms (and God in the manga). And then there is Black, Black is stronger than their base/SS/2/3 forms in his base form, yet he is supposed to be getting closer & closer to Goku's original power before the body-change... how does this make sense?
None of this necessitates Goku having different base forms.

He has one base. He can transform into a Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3. He can use SSJG then combine that with Super Saiyan to use SSB.

There is nothing in-universe that would explain how Black's Rose form multiplies his power compared to Blue. All that's stated is that he rivals SSB in that form, even though his base is much stronger than Goku and Vegeta's. There isn't much to think about. Rose is just Black regaining Goku's full power, so the multiplier is just smaller proportional to his base form.
So these appear to be Goku's forms in Super (and Vegeta's for the most part):

Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Super Saiyan God (unable to use on his own it in the anime)
Base with SSG power (slightly weaker than SSG & no god ki, was stuck in this form from the end of BoG to the beginning of U6 arc, learned how to control it after training, abandoned it in the manga in favor of SSG)
Super Saiyan with SSG power (as strong as SSG & no god ki, evolved into SSB through training)
Super Saiyan Blue
No, it's just:
Blue>SSJG>SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ>Base

Your "Base with SSJG power" doesn't make much sense. We know that current SSJ Goku isn't on the level of the gods and only reaches that level with SSB via statement. Nothing is stated about either Goku or Vegeta's base power in the story that would lead to the conclusion of 2 bases.
And they can use Super Saiyan God in the anime since they by definition use it every time they go Blue. Them not using it standalone isn't evidence. "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God becoming a Super Saiyan". This is especially clear in the manga. SSB=SSJG+Super Saiyan.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:01 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Beerus is talking about Goku's power as a whole, not his base form specifically. His overall power isn't much weaker than SSJG after reverting. Goku didn't have the chance to evolve SSJG's power as an SSJ in the movie like he did in Super, hence he needed SSJG at the end of the film to stop the Sphere of Destruction.

He could only use SSJG's full power as an SSJ. He has only had one base in the series and he possessed an SSJ form with all of SSJG's power. That evolved to Blue and he can still use the basic Super Saiyan. The basic Super Saiyan is multiplying the power of his base form. It isn't granting him more of SSJG's power.
Beerus said specifically that Goku's power didn't decrease significantly after he lost SSG. That's his base form. This was shown from the fact that Goku could still keep fighting Beerus the same way he did as a Super Saiyan God, the fact that base Goku wasn't instantly destroyed by Beerus' ki ball, and from the fact that Goku didn't notice that he went from SSG to base to SS. How couldn't Goku tell that his power went down millions of times, and then back to it? Then there is the FnF manga, which clearly shows that Goku has the power of SSG in his base. In Dragon Ball Heroes, the FnF base Goku can transorm into base Goku with SSG power, and the transformation is described as "Goku powers up into a Saiyan who has surpassed God". And of course, there are his & Vegeta's feats:

Base Goku could still keep fighting with Beerus (movie only).
Base Goku destroyed the huge ki ball with a freaking punch (anime only).
Base Goku was stronger than Final Form Freeza, who was many times stronger than First Form Freeza, who was much stronger than SS Gohan.
Base Vegeta was close in power with tired Golden Freeza, since he could effortlessly deflect his full-power ki blast (the script states that Freeza's ki blast was at full power), but was still not strong enough to beat him easily since he still had to use SSB.
Base Goku & Vegeta could survive full-power hits from Beerus, when they were beaten by Beerus' fingers in their SS3 & base forms respectively before.
They could sense Beerus' & Whis' god ki.
They were words above SS3 Gotenks, who is many times stronger than SS3 Goku.
In the manga, before training inside the RoSaT, Vegeta used SSB against base Goku. This implies that they had the power of SSG in their base forms, since Goku survived a ki blast from SSB Vegeta without a scratch, and Vegeta used his most powerful & most flawed transformation (just transforming twice drains about 90% of his power, and just staying transformed drains his ki) against base Goku... why wouldn't he just use regular SS, which is already more than strong enough to one-shot Goku and doesn't have stamina issues?

Yet there are instances where Goku & Vegeta clearly aren't this powerful, but actually much weaker... how is that possible?
There is nothing in-universe that would explain how Black's Rose form multiplies his power compared to Blue. All that's stated is that he rivals SSB in that form, even though his base is much stronger than Goku and Vegeta's. There isn't much to think about. Rose is just Black regaining Goku's full power, so the multiplier is just smaller proportional to his base form.
It was stated in the manga that Super Saiyan Rose is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but it's pink instead of blue because Black has the mind a god. So, it should give the same increase as Super Saiyan Blue, since they are basically the same.

And also, why is Black (before he achieved SSR) so powerful in his base/SS forms when he is supposed to be weaker than Goku was before the body-change? How can Black be both stronger & weaker than Goku at the same time?

This is how things went:

Goku became a Super Saiyan God, and absorbed its power through his fight with Beerus, making him almost as strong as SSG, but without god ki. After that, tranforming into a regular Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan God barely made any difference. Through his training with Whis, Goku evolved his regular SS form into Super Saiyan Blue. Through his training with Vegeta inside the RoSaT, he learned how to control the power of SSG, and return back to his regular base form, which allowed him to transform into the old golden Super Saiyan form once again, along with Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3. In the manga, he also learned how to transform into a Super Saiyan God on his own. In Black's timeline, Zamasu stole Goku's body & became Black, but he became weaker than Goku was, and was forced to regain Goku's original power through training & near-death power-ups. Black had the power of SSG in his base form, but not all of it since he was weakened, so his regular SS form was golden. After he drew out all of Goku's, and SSG's, power, his SS form finally turned into SSR, his version of SSB. Vegeta went through the same path, except he achieved base with SSG power through training in the anime, instead of becoming a SSG & absorbing its power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:59 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Beerus said specifically that Goku's power didn't decrease significantly after he lost SSG. That's his base form. This was shown from the fact that Goku could still keep fighting Beerus the same way he did as a Super Saiyan God, the fact that base Goku wasn't instantly destroyed by Beerus' ki ball, and from the fact that Goku didn't notice that he went from SSG to base to SS. How couldn't Goku tell that his power went down millions of times, and then back to it? Then there is the FnF manga, which clearly shows that Goku has the power of SSG in his base. In Dragon Ball Heroes, the FnF base Goku can transorm into base Goku with SSG power, and the transformation is described as "Goku powers up into a Saiyan who has surpassed God". And of course, there are his & Vegeta's feats:
It refers to his power as a whole. Being in base doesn't mean that his full power stopped existing and he became a Super Saiyan without even realizing it. SSJ Goku was still weaker than SSJG as stated since he never got to evolve it like in the anime. SSJG Goku was still blatantly shown to be the strongest power in the movie.

We already know where Base Goku is power wise. Weaker than Slim Boo, close to Pure Boo, comparable to Ultimate Gohan and much stronger than Gotenks.
Base Goku could still keep fighting with Beerus (movie only).
Base Goku destroyed the huge ki ball with a freaking punch (anime only).
Base Goku was stronger than Final Form Freeza, who was many times stronger than First Form Freeza, who was much stronger than SS Gohan.
Base Vegeta was close in power with tired Golden Freeza, since he could effortlessly deflect his full-power ki blast (the script states that Freeza's ki blast was at full power), but was still not strong enough to beat him easily since he still had to use SSB.
Base Goku & Vegeta could survive full-power hits from Beerus, when they were beaten by Beerus' fingers in their SS3 & base forms respectively before.
They could sense Beerus' & Whis' god ki.
They were words above SS3 Gotenks, who is many times stronger than SS3 Goku.
In the manga, before training inside the RoSaT, Vegeta used SSB against base Goku. This implies that they had the power of SSG in their base forms, since Goku survived a ki blast from SSB Vegeta without a scratch, and Vegeta used his most powerful & most flawed transformation (just transforming twice drains about 90% of his power, and just staying transformed drains his ki) against base Goku... why wouldn't he just use regular SS, which is already more than strong enough to one-shot Goku and doesn't have stamina issues?

Yet there are instances where Goku & Vegeta clearly aren't this powerful, but actually much weaker... how is that possible?
None of what you said implies anything in regards to 2 bases and Gotenks isn't many times stronger than Goku.
Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku>>Gotenks.
Freeza stated himself that Vegeta had no chance against him in Base, so no they weren't close in power.
It was stated in the manga that Super Saiyan Rose is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but it's pink instead of blue because Black has the mind a god. So, it should give the same increase as Super Saiyan Blue, since they are basically the same.

And also, why is Black (before he achieved SSR) so powerful in his base/SS forms when he is supposed to be weaker than Goku was before the body-change? How can Black be both stronger & weaker than Goku at the same time?
But it doesn't since SSJR Black is stated to be a rival to SSB, so I don't know what you're even getting at. Black was weaker than Goku before the body change since he didn't have Rose.
This is how things went:

Goku became a Super Saiyan God, and absorbed its power through his fight with Beerus, making him almost as strong as SSG, but without god ki. After that, tranforming into a regular Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan God barely made any difference. Through his training with Whis, Goku evolved his regular SS form into Super Saiyan Blue. Through his training with Vegeta inside the RoSaT, he learned how to control the power of SSG, and return back to his regular base form, which allowed him to transform into the old golden Super Saiyan form once again, along with Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3. In the manga, he also learned how to transform into a Super Saiyan God on his own. In Black's timeline, Zamasu stole Goku's body & became Black, but he became weaker than Goku was, and was forced to regain Goku's original power through training & near-death power-ups. Black had the power of SSG in his base form, but not all of it since he was weakened, so his regular SS form was golden. After he drew out all of Goku's, and SSG's, power, his SS form finally turned into SSR, his version of SSB. Vegeta went through the same path, except he achieved base with SSG power through training in the anime, instead of becoming a SSG & absorbing its power.
None of the stuff you're saying about his base form is implied anywhere. Goku evolved his Super Saiyan(with god power) into Blue and that was the end of that. His base form isn't relevant. He never had 2 base forms. Every base form you have seen from him in the series is the same.

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