Not an episode, but from an interview in late 2016 with Atsushi Kido, one of the people working on the series. Outside Beerus, the strongest unfused character is Goku Black.Hitiro wrote:Yes, the narrator tells us that SSJB surpasses SSJG but it doesn't tell us how. You're assuming that it must mean in power but we know that SSG has the downside of only being useable for a short period of time due to how the transformation is obtained. SSJB does away with that issue and the method needed to transform so yes, it would surpass SSJG in aspects. Also, I do not recall it ever being said that SSJR Goku Black was the strongest unfused character. What episode? I also find it hard to believe that SSJBKKx10 Goku is inferior to him. Considering, you know, Goku beat on him several times without KKx10 involved. In fact, the only time he did end up using KK was when Zamasu and Black had fused.Tectorman wrote:
Two issues with that.
First, the narrator in the anime outright tells us that SSB surpassed SSG. Even if he stabilized his normal forms back down below SSG, SSB is still confirmed above that 10%, and if Kaiokenx10 multiplies all of it, then Goku must have surpassed Beerus. And it's not a matter of Beerus and Champa being worried or not. Later during the Zamasu arc, we're told that SSR Goku Black is the strongest unfused character short of Beerus himself. So he must be above the SSBKKx10.
Ergo, if Goku can contend with SSR Black without Kaioken, but is not stronger with the Kaioken, then the actual benefit of the Kaioken at this point in the series (no matter what multiplier it's said to have) cannot be all that much. Which also fits Hit showing similar durability to Goku and SSB and SSBKKx10, all without changing how powerful he was. Which also fits SSB being stronger than SSG, but SSBKKx10 not being stronger than Beerus.
It suggests that all of his Ki was masked to Krillin. Hit being much stronger means he can break through the masking effect of SSB. Can that mean he then gets to sense all of Goku's ki? Sure. Can it also mean he can sense through SSB's masking effect, but only to the extent of the non-god portion of Goku's ki? Also, yes.Hitiro wrote:If you're saying that Hits comment is incorrect because he can't sense God Ki I would have to disagree. Because we know from FnF that people of a certain level can't sense Goku when he transforms into SSJB. Kuririn states that they can't sense him any more. So that suggests that all of his Ki is God Ki. And if that is the case the only thing Hit could be sense at that moment was Goku's God Ki. Which is fine because Hit was clearly above the level required to be able to sense God Ki. As Whis said that both Goku and Vegeta had surpassed the required level to sense God Ki in their base forms. Hit is much stronger than their base forms so he should have no difficulty learning the ability himself.Tectorman wrote:The math doesn't work out with Kaioken working normally (X is SSB, 1 is 10% Beerus, 10 is 100% Beerus, 10X is SSBKKx10, R is SSR).
Solve for X.
I resolve that issue with Kaioken not multiplying all of SSB's power, but merely a portion of it. Vegeta's lack of comment on the matter is not an issue since it can't actually be confirmed that he knows how the Kaioken works (I mean, yes, he knows in general terms that it makes the user more powerful, but not that it specifically multiplies the user's power). Hit's comments can be chalked up to a difference between what he can sense and what is actually happening.
That's the difference. You're calling it "his whole Ki supply gets transformed into God Ki". I'm calling it "his whole Ki supply (normal and god) gets masked by the God Ki effect". We know from his fight with Beerus that being as powerful as a god, even being identically as powerful as a god who, two minutes before, could not be sensed, does not auto-equate to not being sensed. Ergo, he can have god-derived ki outside of SSG and SSB without it requiring his ki to have the "can't be sensed" quality.Hitiro wrote:I would agree if the normal portion of Goku's Ki could still be sensed when he enters SSJB but from what we have seen from the story his whole Ki supply gets transformed into God Ki once he transforms. Much like when he first entered SSJG, the characters noted a similar effect then, as well.Tectorman wrote:Is that playing fast and loose with who can sense what and how which techniques work once godly ki is introduced? Oh my goodness, yes. I still find it preferable to Lovecraftian math.
Um, no. That's why it's called the two-base theory, because it holds the existence of two bases (and for a time, two SSJs, at least until they improved SSbG to SSB). If Goku kept all the power in his SbG form and Gohan was able to keep up with him in not-SbG Base and normal-SSJ, then how would Gohan keeping up with him in said normal forms somehow result in Gohan now being at SSG levels in Base?Hitiro wrote:I never said it was stated. I'm just saying that the only way to justify his base and regular SSJ form being weaker than his SSJG form would be for him to have lost some Ki after the fight with Beerus. And implicitly we could argue that because Gohan could keep up with Goku while Goku was in his base form. If Goku had kept all of the power then somehow Gohan must have levelled up his base form to SSJG levels too. Correct?Tectorman wrote:Second, it's never stated that Goku lost power or stabilized down below SSG. That is only what you have to say happened behind the scenes in order to resolve the Kaioken business.
Would it be easier if SbG were not referred to as a Base form? Should we call it Ultimate Goku instead? Because Gohan isn't getting up there with Goku's SbG or near his SSB or SSbG, he's only keeping in pace with Goku's regular Base and regular SSJ.Hitiro wrote:But again, there would have to be a reason why characters like Gohan can keep up with their base forms. That is completely impossible when you consider that Beerus didn't have to use even 10% of his power to wipe the floor with Gohan and the others and SSJG would have to be above 10% for Beerus to even entertain it. Why would Beerus like to fight an opponent who was the same level as Vegeta was? He already experienced that. So, justifying a power decrease is more than doing it to fix the Kaioken multiplier. It is also to fix power inconsistencies between a few characters. Like I also said, it is much more believeable that Vegeta trained to get to a Goku, who lost some of the Ki afterwards, than a Goku who retained all the Ki.Tectorman wrote:Which, beyond the whole "SSR > SSBKKx10" and "SSB > SSG" things, isn't a problem for the anime itself. It suffers from the same "absence of evidence" as the two-base theory, but I can't really fault it on that principle. It does, however, conflict with the other depictions of those same characters (the movies and the manga). In the movies, Goku and Vegeta working together are confirmed to be enough to defeat Beerus. In the manga, it's also confirmed that SSB > SSG. Furthermore, the manga has no Kaioken to muddle anything up.
As for Vegeta, he makes the same ultimate gains as Goku (or approximately so as of RoF at least) no matter what they both do. Whether Goku kept SbG from his fight with Beerus and Vegeta trained with Whis to develop his and then they together went on to figure out SSB from that point, or Goku stabilized above where he was but below SSG and Vegeta surpassed him briefly until they both figured out SSB, Vegeta is still going from the Buu Saga where he needed to sell his soul to Babidi to eke out every last advantage just to tie Goku at SSJ2 to unlocking obscenely gross new heights of power with only a few months of training with an angel. We're so far outside plausibility regarding Vegeta's progress here that there's virtually no difference.
It's also what keeps everything else in line (SSB's and SSBKKx10's similar performance against Hit; SSB contending with SSR but not surpassing it with SSBKKx10; if the power-up still keeps its full benefit, then I think it raises more questions).Hitiro wrote:I think your method actually creates more issues. You're introducing a logic into the universe that characters can now only sense portions of God Ki, unless you're saying that it only increases regular Ki which I said was impossible earlier due to how transformations work. Introducing such logic seems really sketchy to me. I would much rather believe that Goku's battle power tailed off after his fight with Beerus then introduce a new mechanic into the world of dragon ball which says that characters can only sense portions of people's Ki now. It also seems weird to introduce a mechanic where now Kaioken only works with a portion of someone's Ki. In fact, that means you're introducing two things into the story. One is that Kaioken only multiplies off of a increment of SSJB's power and the second is that certain individuals can only sense increments of SSJB's power. Which is a lot more than just assuming that Goku's power stabilized after the fight with Beerus.Tectorman wrote:The notion of "SSB > SSG" conflicts with the movies and the manga. The major issue with that is that no single source has primacy. Rather, they're all their own interpretations of Toriyama's original storyline. And given that three out of three versions have SSB stronger than SSG and two out of three versions don't have Kaioken even being a thing to raise doubts, it raises strong questions about how powerful SSBKKx10 can even be for the anime to stay the same story as the other versions. My method of making Kaioken work off of a much smaller increment of SSB's full power (and therefore making the whole thing not that much more powerful than just SSB by itself) sidesteps the issue.
God Ki, god-derived Ki, and all that jazz are still new and ill-defined. Your own hypothesis is a good example. How many other non-God-ish power-ups have any of the characters had over the years that we the fanbase had to rationalize away because it made the characters not make sense? I can't think of any. The Grade forms were canonically abandoned for reasons established in the story. Every potential unlock or zenkai stayed after it happened (except for Gohan's Mystic, and we were given a reason (his lack of training) for that).
But you say that Goku needs to have stabilized below SSG in order to make the Kaioken thing work. What gave you that opportunity to even propose such an event? The new and ill-defined nature of how God Ki works. You took that as the weakest link in Goku's power setup, the first thing to doubt if it really still applied. I did the same, just in a different direction, keeping the power but instead doubting how other things (like techniques and how it's sensed) interacted with the god stuff.
Well, I remain in the process of tweaking it and will continue to do so until the end of the series or until it's indisputably confirmed or debunked. But I haven't yet been convinced I'm at any of those points, nor that other methods don't have even more issues that need rectifying.Hitiro wrote:That's a "should of, could of, would of" situation. It could go down that route, like you say, but as of right now we don't know how the story is going to play out. If it does play out that way then obviously what I said wouldn't work. But at the moment I feel it's the most plausible. And as far as your method is concerned it has a few issues itself which I think you need to rectify if you want to convince me it is the best way.Tectorman wrote:And most important of all, it means I don't have to worry about how the story will turn out next. What do you think will happen if it were to turn out that Vegeta (who still lacks Kaioken) is stated to almost be a match for Beerus, that Goku remains as strong as Vegeta in the same forms, and that Goku himself still has not surpassed Beerus (which, given the manga, is not an implausible turn of events nor even difficult to imagine). What happens then? Will we be having this conversation again in a year, this time with people saying that SSBKKx10 not only isn't a thing for some inexplicable reason, but that it never was at all?