How strong is Base Goku?

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Tectorman
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:12 pm

Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
Two issues with that.

First, the narrator in the anime outright tells us that SSB surpassed SSG. Even if he stabilized his normal forms back down below SSG, SSB is still confirmed above that 10%, and if Kaiokenx10 multiplies all of it, then Goku must have surpassed Beerus. And it's not a matter of Beerus and Champa being worried or not. Later during the Zamasu arc, we're told that SSR Goku Black is the strongest unfused character short of Beerus himself. So he must be above the SSBKKx10.
Yes, the narrator tells us that SSJB surpasses SSJG but it doesn't tell us how. You're assuming that it must mean in power but we know that SSG has the downside of only being useable for a short period of time due to how the transformation is obtained. SSJB does away with that issue and the method needed to transform so yes, it would surpass SSJG in aspects. Also, I do not recall it ever being said that SSJR Goku Black was the strongest unfused character. What episode? I also find it hard to believe that SSJBKKx10 Goku is inferior to him. Considering, you know, Goku beat on him several times without KKx10 involved. In fact, the only time he did end up using KK was when Zamasu and Black had fused.
Not an episode, but from an interview in late 2016 with Atsushi Kido, one of the people working on the series. Outside Beerus, the strongest unfused character is Goku Black.

Ergo, if Goku can contend with SSR Black without Kaioken, but is not stronger with the Kaioken, then the actual benefit of the Kaioken at this point in the series (no matter what multiplier it's said to have) cannot be all that much. Which also fits Hit showing similar durability to Goku and SSB and SSBKKx10, all without changing how powerful he was. Which also fits SSB being stronger than SSG, but SSBKKx10 not being stronger than Beerus.
Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:The math doesn't work out with Kaioken working normally (X is SSB, 1 is 10% Beerus, 10 is 100% Beerus, 10X is SSBKKx10, R is SSR).

X>1
10X<R
R<10
Solve for X.

I resolve that issue with Kaioken not multiplying all of SSB's power, but merely a portion of it. Vegeta's lack of comment on the matter is not an issue since it can't actually be confirmed that he knows how the Kaioken works (I mean, yes, he knows in general terms that it makes the user more powerful, but not that it specifically multiplies the user's power). Hit's comments can be chalked up to a difference between what he can sense and what is actually happening.
If you're saying that Hits comment is incorrect because he can't sense God Ki I would have to disagree. Because we know from FnF that people of a certain level can't sense Goku when he transforms into SSJB. Kuririn states that they can't sense him any more. So that suggests that all of his Ki is God Ki. And if that is the case the only thing Hit could be sense at that moment was Goku's God Ki. Which is fine because Hit was clearly above the level required to be able to sense God Ki. As Whis said that both Goku and Vegeta had surpassed the required level to sense God Ki in their base forms. Hit is much stronger than their base forms so he should have no difficulty learning the ability himself.
It suggests that all of his Ki was masked to Krillin. Hit being much stronger means he can break through the masking effect of SSB. Can that mean he then gets to sense all of Goku's ki? Sure. Can it also mean he can sense through SSB's masking effect, but only to the extent of the non-god portion of Goku's ki? Also, yes.
Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:Is that playing fast and loose with who can sense what and how which techniques work once godly ki is introduced? Oh my goodness, yes. I still find it preferable to Lovecraftian math.
I would agree if the normal portion of Goku's Ki could still be sensed when he enters SSJB but from what we have seen from the story his whole Ki supply gets transformed into God Ki once he transforms. Much like when he first entered SSJG, the characters noted a similar effect then, as well.
That's the difference. You're calling it "his whole Ki supply gets transformed into God Ki". I'm calling it "his whole Ki supply (normal and god) gets masked by the God Ki effect". We know from his fight with Beerus that being as powerful as a god, even being identically as powerful as a god who, two minutes before, could not be sensed, does not auto-equate to not being sensed. Ergo, he can have god-derived ki outside of SSG and SSB without it requiring his ki to have the "can't be sensed" quality.
Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:Second, it's never stated that Goku lost power or stabilized down below SSG. That is only what you have to say happened behind the scenes in order to resolve the Kaioken business.
I never said it was stated. I'm just saying that the only way to justify his base and regular SSJ form being weaker than his SSJG form would be for him to have lost some Ki after the fight with Beerus. And implicitly we could argue that because Gohan could keep up with Goku while Goku was in his base form. If Goku had kept all of the power then somehow Gohan must have levelled up his base form to SSJG levels too. Correct?
Um, no. That's why it's called the two-base theory, because it holds the existence of two bases (and for a time, two SSJs, at least until they improved SSbG to SSB). If Goku kept all the power in his SbG form and Gohan was able to keep up with him in not-SbG Base and normal-SSJ, then how would Gohan keeping up with him in said normal forms somehow result in Gohan now being at SSG levels in Base?
Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:Which, beyond the whole "SSR > SSBKKx10" and "SSB > SSG" things, isn't a problem for the anime itself. It suffers from the same "absence of evidence" as the two-base theory, but I can't really fault it on that principle. It does, however, conflict with the other depictions of those same characters (the movies and the manga). In the movies, Goku and Vegeta working together are confirmed to be enough to defeat Beerus. In the manga, it's also confirmed that SSB > SSG. Furthermore, the manga has no Kaioken to muddle anything up.
But again, there would have to be a reason why characters like Gohan can keep up with their base forms. That is completely impossible when you consider that Beerus didn't have to use even 10% of his power to wipe the floor with Gohan and the others and SSJG would have to be above 10% for Beerus to even entertain it. Why would Beerus like to fight an opponent who was the same level as Vegeta was? He already experienced that. So, justifying a power decrease is more than doing it to fix the Kaioken multiplier. It is also to fix power inconsistencies between a few characters. Like I also said, it is much more believeable that Vegeta trained to get to a Goku, who lost some of the Ki afterwards, than a Goku who retained all the Ki.
Would it be easier if SbG were not referred to as a Base form? Should we call it Ultimate Goku instead? Because Gohan isn't getting up there with Goku's SbG or near his SSB or SSbG, he's only keeping in pace with Goku's regular Base and regular SSJ.

As for Vegeta, he makes the same ultimate gains as Goku (or approximately so as of RoF at least) no matter what they both do. Whether Goku kept SbG from his fight with Beerus and Vegeta trained with Whis to develop his and then they together went on to figure out SSB from that point, or Goku stabilized above where he was but below SSG and Vegeta surpassed him briefly until they both figured out SSB, Vegeta is still going from the Buu Saga where he needed to sell his soul to Babidi to eke out every last advantage just to tie Goku at SSJ2 to unlocking obscenely gross new heights of power with only a few months of training with an angel. We're so far outside plausibility regarding Vegeta's progress here that there's virtually no difference.
Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:The notion of "SSB > SSG" conflicts with the movies and the manga. The major issue with that is that no single source has primacy. Rather, they're all their own interpretations of Toriyama's original storyline. And given that three out of three versions have SSB stronger than SSG and two out of three versions don't have Kaioken even being a thing to raise doubts, it raises strong questions about how powerful SSBKKx10 can even be for the anime to stay the same story as the other versions. My method of making Kaioken work off of a much smaller increment of SSB's full power (and therefore making the whole thing not that much more powerful than just SSB by itself) sidesteps the issue.
I think your method actually creates more issues. You're introducing a logic into the universe that characters can now only sense portions of God Ki, unless you're saying that it only increases regular Ki which I said was impossible earlier due to how transformations work. Introducing such logic seems really sketchy to me. I would much rather believe that Goku's battle power tailed off after his fight with Beerus then introduce a new mechanic into the world of dragon ball which says that characters can only sense portions of people's Ki now. It also seems weird to introduce a mechanic where now Kaioken only works with a portion of someone's Ki. In fact, that means you're introducing two things into the story. One is that Kaioken only multiplies off of a increment of SSJB's power and the second is that certain individuals can only sense increments of SSJB's power. Which is a lot more than just assuming that Goku's power stabilized after the fight with Beerus.
It's also what keeps everything else in line (SSB's and SSBKKx10's similar performance against Hit; SSB contending with SSR but not surpassing it with SSBKKx10; if the power-up still keeps its full benefit, then I think it raises more questions).

God Ki, god-derived Ki, and all that jazz are still new and ill-defined. Your own hypothesis is a good example. How many other non-God-ish power-ups have any of the characters had over the years that we the fanbase had to rationalize away because it made the characters not make sense? I can't think of any. The Grade forms were canonically abandoned for reasons established in the story. Every potential unlock or zenkai stayed after it happened (except for Gohan's Mystic, and we were given a reason (his lack of training) for that).

But you say that Goku needs to have stabilized below SSG in order to make the Kaioken thing work. What gave you that opportunity to even propose such an event? The new and ill-defined nature of how God Ki works. You took that as the weakest link in Goku's power setup, the first thing to doubt if it really still applied. I did the same, just in a different direction, keeping the power but instead doubting how other things (like techniques and how it's sensed) interacted with the god stuff.
Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:And most important of all, it means I don't have to worry about how the story will turn out next. What do you think will happen if it were to turn out that Vegeta (who still lacks Kaioken) is stated to almost be a match for Beerus, that Goku remains as strong as Vegeta in the same forms, and that Goku himself still has not surpassed Beerus (which, given the manga, is not an implausible turn of events nor even difficult to imagine). What happens then? Will we be having this conversation again in a year, this time with people saying that SSBKKx10 not only isn't a thing for some inexplicable reason, but that it never was at all?
That's a "should of, could of, would of" situation. It could go down that route, like you say, but as of right now we don't know how the story is going to play out. If it does play out that way then obviously what I said wouldn't work. But at the moment I feel it's the most plausible. And as far as your method is concerned it has a few issues itself which I think you need to rectify if you want to convince me it is the best way.
Well, I remain in the process of tweaking it and will continue to do so until the end of the series or until it's indisputably confirmed or debunked. But I haven't yet been convinced I'm at any of those points, nor that other methods don't have even more issues that need rectifying.
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Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:13 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I have an irrational hatred of Two-Base Theory, no denying that.

But what exactly does it solve? Perceived issues with powerscaling? Characters being stronger than they should have any right to be?

And where does writing intent come in? Is the intent that Goku and Vegeta have super-powerful forms separate from their normal forms that they access that isn't SSB that is only ever used in very specific circumstances, thus painting opponents they face at lower levels as weaker for the audience's own suspension of disbelief?

I certainly can't wrap my head around the intent of the theory for the story, as it's much too complicated and cherry-picking-predicated to be something that the writers would come up with. Yeah, the writing for the anime is rather simplistic, but in being so, basic concepts hold much more water than specific analyses by us.

It doesn't add up mathematically with the conceptual intent of the episodes presented, and it doesn't add up spiritually with Goku and Vegeta's penchant for growing stronger overall.

===

I get that there are inconsistencies, but are they really so jarring that we have to come up with a specific theory predicated on creating separate power-scales to attempt to make sense of it all?

Why not just do things on a case-by-case basis, and look at things individually before trying to come up with a catch-all theory?

Not to mention that the above is Watsonian reasoning, in-universe, when a lot of the problems require Doylist reasoning, real world logic.
Imagine you're reading the first Harry Potter book for the first time. You're on chapter fifteen*. Do you read that chapter with a fresh set of eyes, wondering why everyone keeps calling Harry a wizard and when magic existing even became a thing? Or do you expect what was written before to either still apply now, or if it doesn't apply now, that it have a good reason? That reason need not even be revealed in chapter fifteen; it might take until the last chapter of the last book to be revealed or it may never be revealed at all? But you still read with the expectation of some coherency, provided by yourself for the time being if need be until the actual explanation is revealed, right?

That... is the basic act of reading to me. That one would be expected to read a story with the specific intention of not applying what one has read to the rest of the story, taking each story arc, each individual episode, each minute (where does it end?) on a so-called case-by-case basis is frankly mind-boggling.

"'The ball is red. The ball is bouncing down the road.'"
"But what color is the ball?"
"I... just told you."
"Well, yeah, in the first sentence. But how do I know the ball's still red now?"

... is not a conversation I'd ever expect to actually have. It's surreal.

The closest equivalent I can think of would be my next post in this thread saying that I was never in support of the two-base theory. Not "I did support it but now I don't because [insert reasons here]". Not "I did support it but now I don't for reasons I'm not going to go into". Not even "I never did support it and all those other posts were my account being hacked." Just "I never supported the two-base theory; there are no other posts in this thread or anywhere else where I say otherwise; your lying eyes deceive you."

Show of hands. Who would actually buy that malarkey?

...

Put another way, if I'm reading or watching a story, then it WILL be because the story is coherent. You may consider that to be a fundamental truth of the universe. As a reader/watcher, I have the responsibility to assume the story's coherency and the writers have the responsibility to make it be coherent. If that is not the case, it's because I'm not reading or watching it. But while I'm taking the time to follow the story, I will be taking what applied before as still applying now except for good cause. And if I have to help the writers along in manufacturing said good cause (or at least imposing one for my own continued perusal of the story), then so be it. But some kind of coherency will be there, kaidammit. That is the basic definition of a story.

*[spoiler]On the extreme off-chance that someone reading this hasn't read Harry Potter yet, please know that I picked chapter fifteen of book one entirely off the top of my head. It might or might not have been a pivotal chapter; I just don't remember.[/spoiler]
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:37 pm

I just have a hard time following the logic of Two-Base Theory, is all.

I can't see any legitimate logic to it from an in-universe OR out-of-universe perspective. In-universe and out-of-universe, it seems to invalidate the thought process that Goku and Vegeta are legitimately getting stronger and stronger overall, and seems to invalidate the notion that their opponents are legitimately getting stronger and stronger overall.

If the average viewer couldn't come up with such a rationalization at first glance, why would a show producer or writer? Why come up with something as convoluted-sounding as a second base that is rooted in trying to universalize something in a setting that's very much relativistic?

That's another thing. Being a serialized animated project on a 6-week production schedule (previously 4-week, which did NOT do the show any wonders), I can understand where the inconsistencies come from, especially since producers don't think things through as in-depth as singular individuals like you or I can do so. The book analogy is inherently flawed because a book doesn't work like a T.V. show, which is an episode-by-episode production with a huge staff compared to a singular creation by one or two individuals.

===

However, to answer the question of base power, I'd say......... it varies. Depends on when fighting skill or power is made to be important, what roles each character plays in each scenario, etc.

By keeping things vague and focusing on the spectacle, the show creators avoid having to make hard decisions on these things. However, I'd say they've done enough to at least give us an idea of what the general ballpark is. That being that Goku and Vegeta's base power is within the upper tier of Buu Saga level, their SS power is above that tier, and they're at god-level using god-level forms, and NOTHING ELSE IN-BETWEEN.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:30 pm

Are people seriously claiming that Goku Black is stronger than SSB Kaioken Goku?

Goku overpowered Merged Zamasu using only x2, so no Black isn't stronger. Black is only stronger than SSB Goku. Kaioken is just a technique, not a state or form. Goku being able to amp a Kamehameha that overpowers Zamasu's attack doesn't mean that Goku himself is stronger than Zamasu.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:54 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:It refers to his power as a whole. Being in base doesn't mean that his full power stopped existing and he became a Super Saiyan without even realizing it. SSJ Goku was still weaker than SSJG as stated since he never got to evolve it like in the anime. SSJG Goku was still blatantly shown to be the strongest power in the movie.
Beerus specifically said that right after he lost the transformation, his power didn't drop much. The Super Saiyan God transformation was useless after Goku absorbed the power, Toriyama himself confirmed it. He didn't stop the ki ball because he got stronger through SSG, he stopped it because he got angry. Same about when he turned SS against Beerus. The whole point was that once Goku absorbed the power of SSG, both SS & SSG became useless, and he only transformed into these forms by accident because he got angry.
We already know where Base Goku is power wise. Weaker than Slim Boo, close to Pure Boo, comparable to Ultimate Gohan and much stronger than Gotenks.
That doesn't make sense. Gotenks is much, much stronger than Pure Boo, and we've seen Goku being comparable to base Gohan, who isn't even Ultimate yet.
None of what you said implies anything in regards to 2 bases and Gotenks isn't many times stronger than Goku.
Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku>>Gotenks.
SS Gotenks is at around the same level as SS3 Goku, so SS3 Gotenks should be around x8 stronger than Goku. And Pure Boo isn't stronger than Gotenks.

As for EoZ base Goku, we have no idea how strong he was. He was expecting Oob to be as strong, or stronger, than Pure Boo because he expected him to be a trained fighter, but it turned out he wasn't, though he saw that he had the potential to become that powerful fighter.
Freeza stated himself that Vegeta had no chance against him in Base, so no they weren't close in power.
I'm not saying that base Vegeta was stronger than tired Golden Freeza, just not that far behind.
But it doesn't since SSJR Black is stated to be a rival to SSB, so I don't know what you're even getting at. Black was weaker than Goku before the body change since he didn't have Rose.
Black didn't just lose the transformations, he got weaker in his base form as well, which is why he was still getting near-death power-ups while Goku didn't. Goku had already achieved all the Super Saiyan forms up to Blue, and had drawn out all of his dormant powers through training & near-death power-ups, but when he switched bodies with Zamasu, Black lost the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan & became weaker than Goku was. So, he had to learn on his own how to transform into a Super Saiyan, and he had to regain Goku's power through training & near-death power-ups. When he regained all of Goku's & SSG's former power, his Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Rose.
None of the stuff you're saying about his base form is implied anywhere. Goku evolved his Super Saiyan(with god power) into Blue and that was the end of that. His base form isn't relevant. He never had 2 base forms. Every base form you have seen from him in the series is the same.
Τhen what does this mean?:
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James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:04 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I can't see any legitimate logic to it from an in-universe OR out-of-universe perspective. In-universe and out-of-universe, it seems to invalidate the thought process that Goku and Vegeta are legitimately getting stronger and stronger overall, and seems to invalidate the notion that their opponents are legitimately getting stronger and stronger overall.
Yeah, this is my problem. At this rate under the two-base theory, Goku and Vegeta will have the weakest primary base forms of the entire cast.

The biggest challenge is finding space between New Base (whatever that is) and Super Saiyan Blue to fit the lesser Super Saiyan forms. They're obviously not stronger than God, but they're obviously not as comparatively useless as they were at the beginning of BoG or anywhere near it. If that were the case they'd have zero practicality whatsoever and we know that's not true.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:53 am

Tectorman wrote:Not an episode, but from an interview in late 2016 with Atsushi Kido, one of the people working on the series. Outside Beerus, the strongest unfused character is Goku Black.

Ergo, if Goku can contend with SSR Black without Kaioken, but is not stronger with the Kaioken, then the actual benefit of the Kaioken at this point in the series (no matter what multiplier it's said to have) cannot be all that much. Which also fits Hit showing similar durability to Goku and SSB and SSBKKx10, all without changing how powerful he was. Which also fits SSB being stronger than SSG, but SSBKKx10 not being stronger than Beerus.
Atsushi Kido's idea of how strong Black is may not be shared with Akira Toriyama. And no, just because Goku used it all of one second against a "fused" character does not mean that the actual benefit isn't that much. This was not long after the U6 vs U7 tournament so he would not have had the time to perfect it. The only reason we didn't see him constantly using it is because he hadn't perfected it.
Tectorman wrote:It suggests that all of his Ki was masked to Krillin. Hit being much stronger means he can break through the masking effect of SSB. Can that mean he then gets to sense all of Goku's ki? Sure. Can it also mean he can sense through SSB's masking effect, but only to the extent of the non-god portion of Goku's ki? Also, yes.
Why does it suggest that? We were told that God Ki couldn't normally be sensed. Nowhere does it say that property can be transferred to normal Ki. As I said, that is an additional assumption that must be made if we're going with your method of evaluating Goku's power.

So what you're telling me is that Goku's non-God ki is the only thing that's effected by Kaioken? You're also telling me that there at different layers of masking going on? Why would Hit be able to sense through the mask to sense Goku's normal Ki but not sense through the mask and sense Goku's God Ki? And why would Hit even be surprised by this exactly if, as you say, Kaioken's benefit is not that much? I say this because Goku and Vegeta are, around about, Ultimate Gohan level in their base forms now. That means that they are anywhere between 1% and 9% of Beerus power. Now, I will agree that 10x 1% is not a lot. It would give Goku 10% of Beerus full power. But 10x 9% is 90% of Beerus' full power. That is a massive jump. It's hardly small. So, what is it? Why is Hit surprised? Is it because Goku is currently 9% of Beerus and his Kaioken x10 has pushed him up to 90%? That would conflict with your statement that Kaioken doesn't provide much of a benefit. No? And if it only amplified his power to 10% of Beerus full power then why is Hit shocked in the first place?
Tectorman wrote:That's the difference. You're calling it "his whole Ki supply gets transformed into God Ki". I'm calling it "his whole Ki supply (normal and god) gets masked by the God Ki effect". We know from his fight with Beerus that being as powerful as a god, even being identically as powerful as a god who, two minutes before, could not be sensed, does not auto-equate to not being sensed. Ergo, he can have god-derived ki outside of SSG and SSB without it requiring his ki to have the "can't be sensed" quality.
I'm lost as to what you're trying to say here or how this pertains to the possibility that regular Ki can somehow be masked along with God Ki.
Tectorman wrote:Um, no. That's why it's called the two-base theory, because it holds the existence of two bases (and for a time, two SSJs, at least until they improved SSbG to SSB). If Goku kept all the power in his SbG form and Gohan was able to keep up with him in not-SbG Base and normal-SSJ, then how would Gohan keeping up with him in said normal forms somehow result in Gohan now being at SSG levels in Base?
You're saying this "two-base theory" but that does not hold up. I've already posited this before but if Goku or Vegeta somehow did have second base forms then why have the characters not questioned their strength before? They would have surely found it peculiar when they are beating characters who should be much more powerful than them. If Goku without SSbG is equivalent to being below Full Power Freeza from Namek still. And Goku is fighting on par, if not better, than a character who is Majin Boo level. Why have we not received dialogue from the cast about such events? We'd get a scene such as this:

Kuririn: "How is Goku beating Boo with this powerlevel?!"
Whis: "Goku is blending his God Ki with his regular Ki to make himself vastly stronger than normal strength."

Yet not once have the characters been confused about Goku's strength level, when they could sense him anyway. Are you telling me that the glanced over this fact when they have been pretty consistent about characters mentioning Goku's Ki vanish when he transforms into a SSJB? We have at least three instances of it being noted, that I recall anyway. When Goku went up against Golden Freeza, when Goku went up against Hit and then again when Goku went up against Hit a second time when Goku asked Vados to put out a hit on himself.
Hitiro wrote:
Tectorman wrote:Which, beyond the whole "SSR > SSBKKx10" and "SSB > SSG" things, isn't a problem for the anime itself. It suffers from the same "absence of evidence" as the two-base theory, but I can't really fault it on that principle. It does, however, conflict with the other depictions of those same characters (the movies and the manga). In the movies, Goku and Vegeta working together are confirmed to be enough to defeat Beerus. In the manga, it's also confirmed that SSB > SSG. Furthermore, the manga has no Kaioken to muddle anything up.
But again, there would have to be a reason why characters like Gohan can keep up with their base forms. That is completely impossible when you consider that Beerus didn't have to use even 10% of his power to wipe the floor with Gohan and the others and SSJG would have to be above 10% for Beerus to even entertain it. Why would Beerus like to fight an opponent who was the same level as Vegeta was? He already experienced that. So, justifying a power decrease is more than doing it to fix the Kaioken multiplier. It is also to fix power inconsistencies between a few characters. Like I also said, it is much more believeable that Vegeta trained to get to a Goku, who lost some of the Ki afterwards, than a Goku who retained all the Ki.
Tectorman wrote:Would it be easier if SbG were not referred to as a Base form? Should we call it Ultimate Goku instead? Because Gohan isn't getting up there with Goku's SbG or near his SSB or SSbG, he's only keeping in pace with Goku's regular Base and regular SSJ.
Goku is in the process of getting an "Ultimate form" himself. We've seen spoilers in the opening and ending of Super that shows what happens when Goku breaks his limit. He reverts to a steaming Goku. If Gohan is only keeping up with regular Base and regular SSJ then why is Gohan not decimating Goku? Because unless you're telling me Goku and Vegeta have increased their regular Base and SSJ forms to be 400x stronger then I would have to disagree. And why would Vegeta even have this SbG form anyway? He never absorbed any God Ki into his base form from SSJG because he never became one. Goku stated in FnF that Vegeta achieved his strength and the ability to transform into SSJB all by himself.
Tectorman wrote:As for Vegeta, he makes the same ultimate gains as Goku (or approximately so as of RoF at least) no matter what they both do. Whether Goku kept SbG from his fight with Beerus and Vegeta trained with Whis to develop his and then they together went on to figure out SSB from that point, or Goku stabilized above where he was but below SSG and Vegeta surpassed him briefly until they both figured out SSB, Vegeta is still going from the Buu Saga where he needed to sell his soul to Babidi to eke out every last advantage just to tie Goku at SSJ2 to unlocking obscenely gross new heights of power with only a few months of training with an angel. We're so far outside plausibility regarding Vegeta's progress here that there's virtually no difference.
The only reason Vegeta struggled to get to the same level with Goku in the Boo arc is because Goku already had a massive lead from the Cell Games, Gohan and Goku were the only two who could battle Cell decently in their regular SSJ forms. Coupled with the fact that Goku was dead so he could literally train all day without rest. It's no wonder Vegeta was playing catch up for those 7 years. Had the circumstances been different I would argue that it would be Vegeta who outstripped Goku.
Tectorman wrote:It's also what keeps everything else in line (SSB's and SSBKKx10's similar performance against Hit; SSB contending with SSR but not surpassing it with SSBKKx10; if the power-up still keeps its full benefit, then I think it raises more questions).
Goku did not fight Black with SSBKKx10. Ever. The only time Goku used it in the Mirai Trunks arc was against a fused Zamasu. And it was for a single kick. Which he decimated a fused Zamasu with anyway. And that was only KKx2. Not even 10. Also, Goku had the advantage against Hit the whole fight with SSBKKx10.
Tectorman wrote:God Ki, god-derived Ki, and all that jazz are still new and ill-defined. Your own hypothesis is a good example. How many other non-God-ish power-ups have any of the characters had over the years that we the fanbase had to rationalize away because it made the characters not make sense? I can't think of any. The Grade forms were canonically abandoned for reasons established in the story. Every potential unlock or zenkai stayed after it happened (except for Gohan's Mystic, and we were given a reason (his lack of training) for that).
I can think of one. Gotenks fusion is one we've had to rationalize away. Purely because there is a lot of contention as to whether Gotenks surpassed Goku. Considering Goku stated that Gotenks should be able to handle Fat Boo. That would make Gotenks around 8x stronger than Goku, if not more considering gains made in the RoSaT.
Tectorman wrote:But you say that Goku needs to have stabilized below SSG in order to make the Kaioken thing work. What gave you that opportunity to even propose such an event? The new and ill-defined nature of how God Ki works. You took that as the weakest link in Goku's power setup, the first thing to doubt if it really still applied. I did the same, just in a different direction, keeping the power but instead doubting how other things (like techniques and how it's sensed) interacted with the god stuff.
The issue is you're making up more rules and methods just to justify your own reasoning here. Occam's razor my friend, the more assumptions you make the more chance you have of being incorrect. It is often best to go with the simpler answer. My reasoning is based off the assumption that Goku's power just stabilized. But your reasoning is based of the assumptions that A) Goku and Vegeta mask their normal Ki with the effect of God Ki. B) There are different layers to masking their Ki. and C) Kaioken only effects a portion of Goku's Ki.
Tectorman wrote:Well, I remain in the process of tweaking it and will continue to do so until the end of the series or until it's indisputably confirmed or debunked. But I haven't yet been convinced I'm at any of those points, nor that other methods don't have even more issues that need rectifying.
As far as I'm aware the only issue with my reasoning so far is that I'm assuming Goku's battle power leveled out after his fight with Beerus. I don't inherently see anything wrong with this. Apart from the fact that you said my methodology isn't "future-proof". But why should it account for the possibilities of changes in the future?

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:56 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Beerus specifically said that right after he lost the transformation, his power didn't drop much. The Super Saiyan God transformation was useless after Goku absorbed the power, Toriyama himself confirmed it. He didn't stop the ki ball because he got stronger through SSG, he stopped it because he got angry. Same about when he turned SS against Beerus. The whole point was that once Goku absorbed the power of SSG, both SS & SSG became useless, and he only transformed into these forms by accident because he got angry.
He says that "even though you've returned to normal, you haven't powered down all that much". Everything in that sentence is present tense. Even if he said what you claim, that still wouldn't prove that he's specifically talking about Goku's base form, which he clearly wasn't.
That doesn't make sense. Gotenks is much, much stronger than Pure Boo, and we've seen Goku being comparable to base Gohan, who isn't even Ultimate yet.
Gotenks isn't close to Pure Boo, period. Gohan was Ultimate during the exhibition match according to the artwork. He was also Ultimate when Future Trunks left. Base Goku can spar with Ultimate Gohan and tank SSJ3 Gotenks. He can also fight on par with Pure Boo.
SS Gotenks is at around the same level as SS3 Goku, so SS3 Gotenks should be around x8 stronger than Goku. And Pure Boo isn't stronger than Gotenks.

As for EoZ base Goku, we have no idea how strong he was. He was expecting Oob to be as strong, or stronger, than Pure Boo because he expected him to be a trained fighter, but it turned out he wasn't, though he saw that he had the potential to become that powerful fighter.
None of the bold is true. Goku wasn't expecting Pure Boo to be stronger than Pure Boo. Gotenks is trash to base Goku. Gotenks is trash to Pure Boo, whom is even with base Goku.
All Goku states is that Oob can't properly control his power, doesn't mean that his power was less than Pure Boo's. He is as strong as Pure Boo since he is Pure Boo. Oob was shown to be even with Goku.

Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku>>Gotenks. End of story.

I'm not saying that base Vegeta was stronger than tired Golden Freeza, just not that far behind.
He's not implied anywhere to be comparable hence Freeza stating that Vegeta had no chance against him.
Black didn't just lose the transformations, he got weaker in his base form as well, which is why he was still getting near-death power-ups while Goku didn't. Goku had already achieved all the Super Saiyan forms up to Blue, and had drawn out all of his dormant powers through training & near-death power-ups, but when he switched bodies with Zamasu, Black lost the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan & became weaker than Goku was. So, he had to learn on his own how to transform into a Super Saiyan, and he had to regain Goku's power through training & near-death power-ups. When he regained all of Goku's & SSG's former power, his Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Rose.
Black got zenkais even though his base was stronger than Goku's so no that isn't the reason. He didn't even stop getting zenkais after he mastered Goku's power and unlocked Rose.
Τhen what does this mean?:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that Goku has 2 bases.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:31 pm

The Base Goku in Return of F was made stronger in some capacity thanks to the SSG transformation. That's all that Return of F manga panel confirms. It definitely doesn't represent him suddenly entering a separate form.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:04 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
Saturnine wrote: The movie is not in the same continuity as the anime. It got retconned later. Unless you can somehow reconcile SSj God Goku being at 60% of Beerus and SSj Blue with Kaioken x10 still being weaker than Beerus.
There is no retcon. Rage boosted Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10%.

All of the media supplement each other. SSJG Goku doesn't have to be 60% of Beerus. The numbers that Toriyama gave is simply how they would compare on a scale, not exact percentages and they were just random estimates that he gave off the top of his head when questioned.
Dude... are you for real? If Toriyama says that if Beerus is a 10, then Goku is a 6 it can mean only that Goku is 60% of Beerus' full power. There is no way around it, there is no other way to interpret it, it's not exponential or any such bullcrap that can (after a fashion) work in some other circumstances perhaps. It was a direct comparison in the decimal system. Implying it was anything else is mental gymnastics. But you're clearly insisting that all the different material supplement and not contradict each other, so I'll give you a pass because mental gymnastics are indeed necessary to reconcile all that.

It's clear and obvious in both the anime and the manga that SSj Blue is vastly inferior to Beerus. Toriyama said himself that he has no plans as of now for Goku to surpass Beerus. Beerus acts and talks as if he's the stronger one in every single interaction he and Goku have, there is a clear difference between the movies and the series going forward in that regard. Saying it's not the case is denial.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:46 pm

Saturnine wrote: Dude... are you for real? If Toriyama says that if Beerus is a 10, then Goku is a 6 it can mean only that Goku is 60% of Beerus' full power. There is no way around it, there is no other way to interpret it, it's not exponential or any such bullcrap that can (after a fashion) work in some other circumstances perhaps. It was a direct comparison in the decimal system. Implying it was anything else is mental gymnastics. But you're clearly insisting that all the different material supplement and not contradict each other, so I'll give you a pass because mental gymnastics are indeed necessary to reconcile all that.

It's clear and obvious in both the anime and the manga that SSj Blue is vastly inferior to Beerus. Toriyama said himself that he has no plans as of now for Goku to surpass Beerus. Beerus acts and talks as if he's the stronger one in every single interaction he and Goku have, there is a clear difference between the movies and the series going forward in that regard. Saying it's not the case is denial.
There is no reason to take that scale 100% seriously. The interviewer asked him and he gave numbers off the top of his head. It's just his opinion of where they roughly stand on a scale.
[spoiler]"I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."[/spoiler]
By his own admission, he's guessing. He never thought about it that deeply. There is no indication that anything in the series was made with that scale in mind.

The only requirement is that Goku can make Beerus use close to 70% as stated. That's it. Vegeta can make him use 10%, so Beerus being many times stronger than SSJG or SSB Goku is clearly nonsense.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:16 pm

None of the bold is true. Goku wasn't expecting Pure Boo to be stronger than Pure Boo. Gotenks is trash to base Goku. Gotenks is trash to Pure Boo, whom is even with base Goku.
All Goku states is that Oob can't properly control his power, doesn't mean that his power was less than Pure Boo's. He is as strong as Pure Boo since he is Pure Boo. Oob was shown to be even with Goku.

Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku>>Gotenks. End of story.
A post for the ages between the overbearing attitude and the underlying argument from ignorance. If you want to have an "irrefutable" demeanor try at least to get a clear grasp of the rudiments of logic (i.e. absence of evidence does not equate negation). It's extremely clear that just as he can't prove that Uub was using less of the Pure Buu's power you can't prove he was using it in full capacity; Goku's base power is extremely vague at the end of the Dragon Ball manga, so the story here is quite open-ended.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:37 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
None of the bold is true. Goku wasn't expecting Pure Boo to be stronger than Pure Boo. Gotenks is trash to base Goku. Gotenks is trash to Pure Boo, whom is even with base Goku.
All Goku states is that Oob can't properly control his power, doesn't mean that his power was less than Pure Boo's. He is as strong as Pure Boo since he is Pure Boo. Oob was shown to be even with Goku.

Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku>>Gotenks. End of story.
A post for the ages between the overbearing attitude and the underlying argument from ignorance. If you want to have an "irrefutable" demeanor try at least to get a clear grasp of the rudiments of logic (i.e. absence of evidence does not equate negation). It's extremely clear that just as he can't prove that Uub was using less of the Pure Buu's power you can't prove he was using it in full capacity; Goku's base power is extremely vague at the end of the Dragon Ball manga, so the story here is quite open-ended.
Oob was stated to have cut loose and Goku stated that he was as strong as expected, which is Pure Boo level.

Though if you want to make the gap more extreme and claim that Oob matched someone massively stronger than Gotenks using less than Pure Boo's full power, then go ahead. Goku's base power isn't debatable.
It's much stronger than Gotenks and comparable to Ultimate Gohan during Super and equal to Pure Boo during EOZ.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:01 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
None of the bold is true. Goku wasn't expecting Pure Boo to be stronger than Pure Boo. Gotenks is trash to base Goku. Gotenks is trash to Pure Boo, whom is even with base Goku.
All Goku states is that Oob can't properly control his power, doesn't mean that his power was less than Pure Boo's. He is as strong as Pure Boo since he is Pure Boo. Oob was shown to be even with Goku.

Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku>>Gotenks. End of story.
A post for the ages between the overbearing attitude and the underlying argument from ignorance. If you want to have an "irrefutable" demeanor try at least to get a clear grasp of the rudiments of logic (i.e. absence of evidence does not equate negation). It's extremely clear that just as he can't prove that Uub was using less of the Pure Buu's power you can't prove he was using it in full capacity; Goku's base power is extremely vague at the end of the Dragon Ball manga, so the story here is quite open-ended.
Oob was stated to have cut loose and Goku stated that he was as strong as expected, which is Pure Boo level.

Though if you want to make the gap more extreme and claim that Oob matched someone massively stronger than Gotenks using less than Pure Boo's full power, then go ahead. Goku's base power isn't debatable.
It's much stronger than Gotenks and comparable to Ultimate Gohan during Super and equal to Pure Boo during EOZ.
While it is undeniable that Goku did expect to face someone "really strong" (someone being so strong by virtue of being the reincarnation of Kid Buu), it isn't, however, stated anywhere that Goku expected the same individual to be exactly as strong as Kid Buu right off the bat.
The phrase about Uub being "as strong as Goku expected" at bare minimum conveys the idea that Uub was an incredible fighter, which he was indeed; Uub being necessarily on par with Kid Buu or Goku necessarily fighting at full power against Uub are, on the other hand, arbitrary inferences based on guesswork. Uub could be weaker or even stronger than Kid Buu as far as we know.

Uub being "cut loose" as a demonstration of the sort is also irrelevant, since we don't know with certainty if he can factually tap into (or if he even already possesses) Kid Buu's full power.
At most, a slightly more solid argument could be made on the grounds that this "unknown person" could have won the tournament according to Goku (a.k.a. beat or ring out someone or everyone among Mr. Buu, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta and Goku) in connection with the fact that Uub matched Goku's "expectations", but it's still anything but an assertion that dispels every doubt for very obvious reasons.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:53 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote: While it is undeniable that Goku did expect to face someone "really strong" (someone being so strong by virtue of being the reincarnation of Kid Buu), it isn't, however, stated anywhere that Goku expected the same individual to be exactly as strong as Kid Buu right off the bat.
The phrase about Uub being "as strong as Goku expected" at bare minimum conveys the idea that Uub was an incredible fighter, which he was indeed; Uub being necessarily on par with Kid Buu or Goku necessarily fighting at full power against Uub are, on the other hand, arbitrary inferences based on guesswork. Uub could be weaker or even stronger than Kid Buu as far as we know.

Uub being "cut loose" as a demonstration of the sort is also irrelevant, since we don't know with certainty if he can factually tap into (or if he even already possesses) Kid Buu's full power.
At most, a slightly more solid argument could be made on the grounds that this "unknown person" could have won the tournament according to Goku (a.k.a. beat or ring out someone or everyone among Mr. Buu, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta and Goku) in connection with the fact that Uub matched Goku's "expectations", but it's still anything but an assertion that dispels every doubt for very obvious reasons.
No, Base Goku and Oob were shown to be equal and they were stated to be equal twice, so there is no "Goku was holding back". That isn't implied anywhere. Goku stated himself that Oob managed to legitimately get the upper hand at one point. It's very obvious to anyone that isn't biased that Goku and Oob are equal.

Oob is Pure Boo, so he is as strong as Pure Boo. Goku states after he sees Oob's power:
"There's no doubt about it! You're the reincarnation of that evil Boo!"

Goku merely stated that he isn't accustomed to using that power. So Oob is as strong as Pure Boo since he is Pure Boo, but he just isn't used to using that power. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Oob was weaker than Pure Boo.

So, once again, it's very obvious if you're not being biased that Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:29 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote: While it is undeniable that Goku did expect to face someone "really strong" (someone being so strong by virtue of being the reincarnation of Kid Buu), it isn't, however, stated anywhere that Goku expected the same individual to be exactly as strong as Kid Buu right off the bat.
The phrase about Uub being "as strong as Goku expected" at bare minimum conveys the idea that Uub was an incredible fighter, which he was indeed; Uub being necessarily on par with Kid Buu or Goku necessarily fighting at full power against Uub are, on the other hand, arbitrary inferences based on guesswork. Uub could be weaker or even stronger than Kid Buu as far as we know.

Uub being "cut loose" as a demonstration of the sort is also irrelevant, since we don't know with certainty if he can factually tap into (or if he even already possesses) Kid Buu's full power.
At most, a slightly more solid argument could be made on the grounds that this "unknown person" could have won the tournament according to Goku (a.k.a. beat or ring out someone or everyone among Mr. Buu, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta and Goku) in connection with the fact that Uub matched Goku's "expectations", but it's still anything but an assertion that dispels every doubt for very obvious reasons.
No, Base Goku and Oob were shown to be equal and they were stated to be equal twice, so there is no "Goku was holding back". That isn't implied anywhere. Goku stated himself that Oob managed to legitimately get the upper hand at one point. It's very obvious to anyone that isn't biased that Goku and Oob are equal.

Oob is Pure Boo, so he is as strong as Pure Boo. Goku states after he sees Oob's power:
"There's no doubt about it! You're the reincarnation of that evil Boo!"

Goku merely stated that he isn't accustomed to using that power. So Oob is as strong as Pure Boo since he is Pure Boo, but he just isn't used to using that power. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Oob was weaker than Pure Boo.

So, once again, it's very obvious if you're not being biased that Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku.

Well, as a matter of fact - since you have this particular distasteful habit of throwing around bias accusations in many threads - you are the one blatantly acting biased here, since to you Goku being surprised or in awe of Uub's power means Uub has to be as strong as Kid Buu literally a priori. You seem not to understand or refusing to address the fact that your underlying assumption of Goku being surprised, complimenting or addressing Uub as Kid Buu's reincarnation as "conclusive" proof that Uub is exactly as strong as Kid Buu is just that: an assumption which is entirely opinion-based. Regardless of you wanting to acknowledge this self-explanatory fact (or probably not), Uub's strength is never objectively disclosed with much precision.

To reiterate as to the "why" and leaving aside the additions of the anime that you are throwing in the mix, Goku's expectations - which are never entirely disclosed - could merely be to find "someone exceptionally strong (albeit possibly weaker than Kid Buu)". Uub in turn could be abnormally strong for a human (or "incredible", in Goku's own words) and yet weaker than a SS3, still giving away his status as Kid Buu's reincarnation. All of the preconditions relating to Uub matching Goku's expectations would be fulfilled regardless of Uub being exactly as strong as Kid Buu or not. Establishing arbitrary rules like "Uub is Kid Buu's reincarnation so he must have immediate access to Kid Buu's power" is still quite irrelevant and is most definitely not going to change the fact that the manga never takes such a specific stance.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:19 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:He says that "even though you've returned to normal, you haven't powered down all that much". Everything in that sentence is present tense. Even if he said what you claim, that still wouldn't prove that he's specifically talking about Goku's base form, which he clearly wasn't.
This is what he said:
Beerus: It looks as if while you were fighting in the God form, you ended up absorbing all of that power into your body. Which is why, despite returning to normal, your power didn't drop very much.
And also, if base Goku really is as weak as you say, how do you explain that Goku didn't notice that his power fell when he went from God to base? And how do you explain that he could keep up against Beerus as good as he did in his SSG form, especially when he couldn't do nearly that good as a Super Saiyan 3?
Gotenks isn't close to Pure Boo, period. Gohan was Ultimate during the exhibition match according to the artwork. He was also Ultimate when Future Trunks left. Base Goku can spar with Ultimate Gohan and tank SSJ3 Gotenks. He can also fight on par with Pure Boo.
Gohan hasn't been Ultimate since the Battle of Gods arc. He looks like it now because of the artwork, but he still isn't story-wise, or he wouldn't turn into a Super Saiyan. The promotion of the arc confirms this, which states that Gohan will regain his Ultimate power, and in the series Gohan will now train under Piccolo to regain his former power.
None of the bold is true. Goku wasn't expecting Pure Boo to be stronger than Pure Boo. Gotenks is trash to base Goku. Gotenks is trash to Pure Boo, whom is even with base Goku.
All Goku states is that Oob can't properly control his power, doesn't mean that his power was less than Pure Boo's. He is as strong as Pure Boo since he is Pure Boo. Oob was shown to be even with Goku.

Pure Boo=EOZ Base Goku>>Gotenks. End of story.
Goku was scared to fight Evil Boo, who was as strong as SS3 Gotenks, and was relieved when Pure Boo appeared, and he was confident he would beat him until the end (he failed to do it because of SS3's stamina issues).

As for Oob, he is shown to be a little stronger than base Goku, not as strong as Boo. He also hasn't ever trained in his life before, but he has the potential to reach & surpass Boo.
He's not implied anywhere to be comparable hence Freeza stating that Vegeta had no chance against him.
Again, I'm not saying that Vegeta could beat Freeza. But the fact that base Vegeta could effortlesly deflect a full-power ki blast from a tired Golden Freeza means that Freeza isn't many times stronger than Vegeta.
Black got zenkais even though his base was stronger than Goku's so no that isn't the reason. He didn't even stop getting zenkais after he mastered Goku's power and unlocked Rose.
That's because Black's body was that of a stronger Goku from one year later. Black/Zamasu had to use the Time Ring to got forward 1 year later for the Super Dragon Balls to be active.
This doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that Goku has 2 bases.
But it does mean that Goku has the power of SSG in his base form in FnF. But he doesn't have it in the Super manga, while Black appears to have it in the Super manga, while he sometimes has it & other times he doesn't have it in the Super anime, and he obviously doesn't have it against Oob in the end of the original manga... which means we have a plot-hole. And that's why the 2 base theory exists, to eliminate this plot-hole.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:13 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote: Well, as a matter of fact - since you have this particular distasteful habit of throwing around bias accusations in many threads - you are the one blatantly acting biased here, since to you Goku being surprised or in awe of Uub's power means Uub has to be as strong as Kid Buu literally a priori. You seem not to understand or refusing to address the fact that your underlying assumption of Goku being surprised, complimenting or addressing Uub as Kid Buu's reincarnation as "conclusive" proof that Uub is exactly as strong as Kid Buu is just that: an assumption which is entirely opinion-based. Regardless of you wanting to acknowledge this self-explanatory fact (or probably not), Uub's strength is never objectively disclosed with much precision.

To reiterate as to the "why" and leaving aside the additions of the anime that you are throwing in the mix, Goku's expectations - which are never entirely disclosed - could merely be to find "someone exceptionally strong (albeit possibly weaker than Kid Buu)". Uub in turn could be abnormally strong for a human (or "incredible", in Goku's own words) and yet weaker than a SS3, still giving away his status as Kid Buu's reincarnation. All of the preconditions relating to Uub matching Goku's expectations would be fulfilled regardless of Uub being exactly as strong as Kid Buu or not. Establishing arbitrary rules like "Uub is Kid Buu's reincarnation so he must have immediate access to Kid Buu's power" is still quite irrelevant and is most definitely not going to change the fact that the manga never takes such a specific stance.
Sure. Goku and Oob are shown to have an even fight and are stated to be equals, yet me merely reiterating what was stated and shown makes me bias. Not the person trying to weasel out of the obvious suggesting that Goku held back.
"It only happened in the anime" was never a valid argument.

You can claim that Oob is weaker than Pure Boo for some reason if you want. Fact is that Oob was equal to base Goku, so we still come to Pure Boo>>Gotenks.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: This is what he said:
Beerus: It looks as if while you were fighting in the God form, you ended up absorbing all of that power into your body. Which is why, despite returning to normal, your power didn't drop very much.
And also, if base Goku really is as weak as you say, how do you explain that Goku didn't notice that his power fell when he went from God to base? And how do you explain that he could keep up against Beerus as good as he did in his SSG form, especially when he couldn't do nearly that good as a Super Saiyan 3?
This doesn't matter. Base Goku is stated to be equal to Pure Boo by EOZ. None of what you're saying is conclusive regardless of what the answer is.
Gohan hasn't been Ultimate since the Battle of Gods arc. He looks like it now because of the artwork, but he still isn't story-wise, or he wouldn't turn into a Super Saiyan. The promotion of the arc confirms this, which states that Gohan will regain his Ultimate power, and in the series Gohan will now train under Piccolo to regain his former power.
There is no promo material that states anything about Gohan regaining his former Ultimate power. It's stated that Piccolo wants to bring out more of Gohan's Ultimate power than he had in the past. Gohan is stated and shown to be Ultimate in the exhibition match. The art is stated to be what defines Gohan as Ultimate, so he is. He isn't shown with those same traits in the ROF or U6 arc.
Goku was scared to fight Evil Boo, who was as strong as SS3 Gotenks, and was relieved when Pure Boo appeared, and he was confident he would beat him until the end (he failed to do it because of SS3's stamina issues).

As for Oob, he is shown to be a little stronger than base Goku, not as strong as Boo. He also hasn't ever trained in his life before, but he has the potential to reach & surpass Boo.
Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest Boo, so that's the end of that.

Pure Boo=EOZ base Goku>DB Super base Goku>>Gotenks
Again, I'm not saying that Vegeta could beat Freeza. But the fact that base Vegeta could effortlesly deflect a full-power ki blast from a tired Golden Freeza means that Freeza isn't many times stronger than Vegeta.
Even if I assume that tired Golden Freeza and Base Vegeta are close for some reason, it doesn't matter. Anyone shown to be comparable to the post god base Saiyans(Ultimate Gohan, Pure Boo) can replicate what Vegeta did.
That's because Black's body was that of a stronger Goku from one year later. Black/Zamasu had to use the Time Ring to got forward 1 year later for the Super Dragon Balls to be active.
This isn't stated anywhere. Black is still only a match for Super Saiyan Blue after mastering Goku's power.
But it does mean that Goku has the power of SSG in his base form in FnF. But he doesn't have it in the Super manga, while Black appears to have it in the Super manga, while he sometimes has it & other times he doesn't have it in the Super anime, and he obviously doesn't have it against Oob in the end of the original manga... which means we have a plot-hole. And that's why the 2 base theory exists, to eliminate this plot-hole.
None of the bold is stated or shown anywhere. The only thing correct is that Goku has SSJG power to some extent in his base form.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:24 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:This doesn't matter. Base Goku is stated to be equal to Pure Boo by EOZ. None of what you're saying is conclusive regardless of what the answer is.
No, he is not. Nothing was said about his power.
There is no promo material that states anything about Gohan regaining his former Ultimate power. It's stated that Piccolo wants to bring out more of Gohan's Ultimate power than he had in the past. Gohan is stated and shown to be Ultimate in the exhibition match. The art is stated to be what defines Gohan as Ultimate, so he is. He isn't shown with those same traits in the ROF or U6 arc.
If Gohan was Ultimate, he wouldn't become a Super Saiyan and get stronger. This means he is not Ultimate yet. But things will become more clear in the next episodes.
Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest Boo, so that's the end of that.
Only in filler, and it was a contradiction. Evil Boo, Piccolo Boo, Piccolo/Goten/Trunks Boo, S. Kaioshin Boo, Gotenks Boo, and Gohan Boo are all stronger than Pure Boo.
This isn't stated anywhere. Black is still only a match for Super Saiyan Blue after mastering Goku's power.
Yes it is stated. Zamasu wanted to use the Super Dragon Balls to steal Goku's body, but couldn't because Beerus had already used them back in the tournament and the SDBs had turned to stone for a year. So, he used the Time Ring instead of waiting for a year.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:27 pm

Sure. Goku and Oob are shown to have an even fight and are stated to be equals, yet me merely reiterating what was stated and shown makes me bias. Not the person trying to weasel out of the obvious suggesting that Goku held back.
"It only happened in the anime" was never a valid argument.


You can claim that Oob is weaker than Pure Boo for some reason if you want. Fact is that Oob was equal to base Goku, so we still come to Pure Boo>>Gotenks.
Trying to weasel out of something you are - for some curious reason - trying to comically spoonfeed me and others?
Your arbitrary rules like "if you don't find some information in the manga, look up in the anime, because they are meant to be one and the same" are an index of bias when they rely on your own personal feelings and you try to elevate them to rules for everyone. I guess you must believe that Gregory exists in the manga continuity, but that he's also conveniently hidden or off panel every time we are on King Kai's planet. Is somebody who thinks that Gregory does not exist in the manga continuity biased, according to you?

Uub being equal to a fully powered Base Goku is still as unsubstantiated as before, though. As something proving Kid Buu > Gotenks? Equally moot. I hope you can find some better argument along the way, but I guess you'll simply repeat your own policies and stances on the manga and the anime perfectly supplementing each other ad nauseam.

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