How strong is Base Goku?

[Lord Beerus]

This was very recently posted in the Super Power Levels thread:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

This still doesn't solve my problem with the scaling, how characters can jerk themselves off-screen and gain massive strength gains that completely undermine anything Goku & Vegeta do ON-screen.

What do you mean? Goku and Vegeta and Vegeta can use God ki at will in their base form. The only really nagging problem right now is that we don't have a visual queue for when they do so. But you can easily come to that conclusion with anytime Goku and Vegeta jump from Base to SSJ. That's when they are not using God ki in their base form. But anytime they make the jump from Base straight to SSJB, they are utilising God ki in their base form. ChiefWamsutta's post sums up the current scenario perfectly. What we know for a fact is that:

A. None of the U6 fighters were God-tier, excluding Hit.
B. Krillin is definitely not God-tier or anywhere close to that.
C. Android 17 is definitely much stronger than SSJ but is really no match at all against SSJB tier at all.
D. Goku Black strength mutated to insane degrees from fighting with Future Trunks, Goku and Vegeta. And it was only after letting Vegeta pound on him that he gained full acess to the Godly power that Goku's body posessed in his base form.

The only real anomaly is Episode 57 in the anime. But you can handwave that as plot armour. Like Krillin not instantly dying from an attack from Perfect Cell.

You can complain about character getting much stronger off-screen, but it happens so much in Dragon Ball, that I really don't see it as much of an issue anymore. What happens on-screen, compared to what happens off-screen, in regards to character building strength, is such as non-issue at this stage, especially if there is a handwave that they have been training. I mean, we don't know exactly how much stronger SSJB is compared to the other SSJ forms. It could be hundreds, it could be thousands, it could be millions, it could be billions. The point is, we don't know. As I've said before, not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. The fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains on or off screen. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to criticize character not going into more depth into how he got stronger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit more detail. But having the mentality of, "Because I didn't see it happen in the show, even though the character says that it happened, I think it never happened and will not accept it.", is not the best attitude to have. In my honest opinion.

EDIT: You can also now count me in the camp of "Super has no filler."

[ekrolo2]

This was very recently posted in the Super Power Levels thread:

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

This still doesn't solve my problem with the scaling, how characters can jerk themselves off-screen and gain massive strength gains that completely undermine anything Goku & Vegeta do ON-screen.

What do you mean? Goku and Vegeta and Vegeta can use God ki at will in their base form. The only really nagging problem right now is that we don't have a visual queue for when they do so. But you can easily come to that conclusion with anytime Goku and Vegeta jump from Base to SSJ. That's when they are not using God ki in their base form. But anytime they make the jump from Base straight to SSJB, they are utilising God ki in their base form. ChiefWamsutta's post sums up the current scenario perfectly. What we know for a fact is that:

A. None of the U6 fighters were God-tier, excluding Hit.
B. Krillin is definitely not God-tier or anywhere close to that.
C. Android 17 is definitely much stronger than SSJ but is really no match at all against SSJB tier at all.
D. Goku Black strength mutated to insane degrees from fighting with Future Trunks, Goku and Vegeta. And it was only after letting Vegeta pound on him that he gained full acess to the Godly power that Goku's body posessed in his base form.

The only real anomaly is Episode 57 in the anime. But you can handwave that as plot armour. Like Krillin not instantly dying from an attack from Perfect Cell.

You can complain about character getting much stronger off-screen, but it happens so much in Dragon Ball, that I really don't see it as much of an issue anymore. What happens on-screen, compared to what happens on-screen, in regards to character building strength, is such as non-issue at this stage, especially if there is a handwave that they have been training. I mean, we don't know exactly how much stronger SSJB is compared to the other SSJ forms. It could be hundreds, it could be thousands, it could be millions, it could be billions. The point is, we don't know. As I've said before, not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. The fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains on or off screen. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to criticize character not going into more depth into how he got stronger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit more detail. But having the mentality of, "Because I didn't see it happen in the show, even though the character says that it happened, I think it never happened and will not accept it.", is not the best attitude to have. In my honest opinion.

The problem certainly isn't as obnoxious now as it was but I still take issue when a series that's all about training to make yourself stronger has side characters jerk themselves off-screen and make better progress than the guy's who've visibly gone through great pains to get stronger. In this case, Goku and Vegeta. They train their asses off but Piccolo sits in one of the numerous desolate wastelands doing some non-descript BS off-screen and he goes from worthless fodder to Goku and Vegeta to fighting Ultimate Gohan and has some means of making Gohan infinitely more powerful. 17 is another example, probably the worst there is.

[Lord Beerus]

This still doesn't solve my problem with the scaling, how characters can jerk themselves off-screen and gain massive strength gains that completely undermine anything Goku & Vegeta do ON-screen.

What do you mean? Goku and Vegeta and Vegeta can use God ki at will in their base form. The only really nagging problem right now is that we don't have a visual queue for when they do so. But you can easily come to that conclusion with anytime Goku and Vegeta jump from Base to SSJ. That's when they are not using God ki in their base form. But anytime they make the jump from Base straight to SSJB, they are utilising God ki in their base form. ChiefWamsutta's post sums up the current scenario perfectly. What we know for a fact is that:

A. None of the U6 fighters were God-tier, excluding Hit.
B. Krillin is definitely not God-tier or anywhere close to that.
C. Android 17 is definitely much stronger than SSJ but is really no match at all against SSJB tier at all.
D. Goku Black strength mutated to insane degrees from fighting with Future Trunks, Goku and Vegeta. And it was only after letting Vegeta pound on him that he gained full acess to the Godly power that Goku's body posessed in his base form.

The only real anomaly is Episode 57 in the anime. But you can handwave that as plot armour. Like Krillin not instantly dying from an attack from Perfect Cell.

You can complain about character getting much stronger off-screen, but it happens so much in Dragon Ball, that I really don't see it as much of an issue anymore. What happens on-screen, compared to what happens off-screen, in regards to character building strength, is such as non-issue at this stage, especially if there is a handwave that they have been training. I mean, we don't know exactly how much stronger SSJB is compared to the other SSJ forms. It could be hundreds, it could be thousands, it could be millions, it could be billions. The point is, we don't know. As I've said before, not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. The fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains on or off screen. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to criticize character not going into more depth into how he got stronger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit more detail. But having the mentality of, "Because I didn't see it happen in the show, even though the character says that it happened, I think it never happened and will not accept it.", is not the best attitude to have. In my honest opinion.

The problem certainly isn't as obnoxious now as it was but I still take issue when a series that's all about training to make yourself stronger has side characters jerk themselves off-screen and make better progress than the guy's who've visibly gone through great pains to get stronger. In this case, Goku and Vegeta. They train their asses off but Piccolo sits in one of the numerous desolate wastelands doing some non-descript BS off-screen and he goes from worthless fodder to Goku and Vegeta to fighting Ultimate Gohan and has some means of making Gohan infinitely more powerful. 17 is another example, probably the worst there is.

We know Piccolo has been quietly training since Gohan started studying and we even see Piccolo train with Gohan on-screen and know for a fact he has been that since the end of the events of Resurrection F. Now we know just how much Piccolo made gains by training off-screen for just three years, so it's not really an issue to seem him gor from what ever tier for strength he was previously at to being able to challenge SSJ2 Adult Gohan. There very best we know about Piccolo in relation to Ultimate Gohan is that he can catch him off-guard. But that does that mean he is as strong as Ultimate Gohan? No, it doesn't. That like saying Piccolo was on same tier of strength as Nappa in the Saiyan and Freeza in his final form, because he caught both of their character with off-guard attack, even though in both of the scenario he was much weaker compared to Nappa and Freeza. Or like saying SSJ Kid Trunks is as strong as Majin Boo because he sent him flying with a kick that Majin Boo didn't see coming. Plus, the episode itself in Super where the incident happens stresses within the narrative the notion that Gohan mustn't be like Goku drop his guard at all at any time during a fight, and he still did so and Piccolo punished him for it. So it will serve as a hard lesson for Gohan and build his character to never do so again.

Now the Android 17 complaint? That has been such a "mountain out of a molehill" topic within the fandom.

It must be stressed that we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 (and 18) could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They can literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage with the battle power of Android 17 (and Android 18).

I also don't think he became SSJB level right off the bat. I think he just did some light training over the the last decade or so and his power just unexpectedly creeped to an insane height. Again, it's a rational possibility. There nothing established that it can't happen. It been more than 10 years. Not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. As I've said before, the fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Especially for a character that's never trained before like Android 17.

So... yeah. I really don't see what the major problem is. People train and get stronger. That's just how Dragon Ball has been since day one. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

People say that Android 17 shouldn't become this strong... but... since was it stated that he can't? Why put a literal glass ceiling on how strong a character, who's never trained before, can get? I'm not saying that people don't have the right to criticize Android 17 not going into more depth into how he got stronger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit more detail. But the notion I seem to be coming across is more: "This character should not get this strong because my headcanon says so and so do my power levels". And less, "Wow. Android 17 has gotten really strong. I hope they explain more about this later on."

I can understand your grievances. I really do. I'd love for more detail on character get stronger. But the only people who really put a glass ceiling on the possible gains in strength a character can attain are the fanbase, not the writers. Yes, the writers do have an obligation to provide more detail for how strong characters can get, but it's not their job to bend over to the will of a fanbase who want their theories and hypothesis of just how characters can truly get under certain circumstances to be justified. Some people may have an issue with it and others don't. Some people what don't like the idea of basic training being applied to characters and them getting much stronger from it, and other don't mind because in the past it has been show that even basic training can yield great results from some characters in growing stronger. Now is Super using this liberty a bit too much? Well, it's how much you're willing to suspend your disbelief. If you're will to accept the notion that characters can achieve varying levels of increased strength on their own through training, as we've been told can happen in the happen in the past, it shouldn't been now a real issue. But if you want more detail to how any given character gets "X" times stronger in training, whether by themselves, or by training with someone, then your criticism is warranted if the circumstance in the show isn't explained appropriately. But keep in mind, this is franchise that loves to play it loose and swift with how strong the characters are to make the narrative as entertaining as possible. I mean, it is a show about fighting.

Just my two cents.

[ekrolo2]

I can understand your grievances. But the only people who really put a glass ceiling on the character are the fanbase not the writers. Yes, the writers doe have an obligation to provide more detail for how strong characters can get, but it's not their job to bend over to the will of a fanbase who want their theories and hypothesis of just how characters can truly can under certain circumstances to be justified. Some people may have an issue with it and others don't. Some people what don't like the idea of basic training being applied to characters and them getting much stronger from it, and other don't mind becuase, well, it's a fighting show. That has in the past show that even basic training can yield great results from some characters in growing stronger.

Now is Super using this liberty a bit too much? Well, it's how much you're will to suspend you're disbelief. We know Piccolo has been quietly training since Gohan started studying and we even see Piccolo train with Gohan on-screen and know for a fact he has been that since the end of the events of Resurrection F. Now we know just how much Piccolo made gains by training off-screen for just three years, so it's not really an issue to seem him gor from what ever tier for strength he was previously at to being able to challenge SSJ2 Adult Gohan. There very best we know about Piccolo in relation to Ultimate Gohan is that he can catch him off-guard. But that does that mean he is as strong as Ultimate Gohan? No, it doesn't. That like saying Piccolo was on same tier of strength as Nappa in the Saiyan and Freeza in his final form, because he caught both of their character with off-guard attack, even though in both of the scenario he was much weaker compared to Nappa and Freeza. Or like saying SSJ Kid Trunks is as strong as Majin Boo because he sent him flying with a kick that Majin Boo didn't see coming. Plus, the episode itself in Super where the incident happens stresses within the narrative the notion that Gohan mustn't be like Goku drop his guard at all at any time during a fight, and he still did so and Piccolo punished him for it. So it will serve as a hard lesson for Gohan and build his character to never do so again.

Now the Android 17 complaint? That has been such a "mountain out of a molehill" topic within the fandom.

It must be stressed that we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 (and 18) could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They can literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage with the battle power of Android 17 (and Android 18).

I also don't think he became SSJB level right off the bat. I think he just did some light training over the the last decade or so and his power just unexpectedly creeped to an insane height. Again, it's a rational possibility. There nothing established that it can't happen. It been more than 10 years. Not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. As I've said before, the fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Especially for a character that's never trained before like Android 17.

So... yeah. I really don't see what the major problem is. People train and get stronger. That's just how Dragon Ball has been since day one. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

People say that Android 17 shouldn't become this strong... but... since was it stated that he can't? Why put a literal glass ceiling on how strong a character, who's never trained before, can get? I'm not saying that people don't have the right to criticize Android 17 not going into more depth into how he got stronger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit more detail. But the notion I seem to be coming across is more: "This character should not get this strong because my headcanon says so and so do my power levels". And less, "Wow. Android 17 has gotten really strong. I hope they explain more about this later on."

Just my two cents.

I never said Android 17 getting this much stronger or Piccolo getting stronger broke any established rules, especially 17 who, like you say, has no precedent to firmly judge him on. However, there has to be something for me to buy this. You can't create a narrative where Goku and Vegeta go through various different levels of progressively more and more difficult training to attain the power they have then Freeza shows up, using a skinny asshole as a human dart board and makes Goku & Vegeta's strength gains look like nothing in just a few months when Goku & Vegeta spend a decade getting to their level.

Same thing with 17, him getting stronger as a consequence of his amplifications is more than fair and unlike Freeza, there isn't such a minuscule amount of time to where I want to smack someone in the face for that writing decision. However, there's a big difference for me between getting big strength gains and going from Android tier to forcing Goku to use Blue, especially since Goku's God Base can one-shot Gotenks at SS3. That's too big of a disparity for me to just buy "Oh he trained off screen!" Fuck that. Even Piccolo, who's king of bullshit mountain when it comes to strength gains NEVER makes something that ridiculous.

Give me some good context for this stuff or go the fuck away, Super. FFS, we've had to dig up an old magazine article from 2 years ago to explain how Goku and Vegeta's powers work! No one, in the span of almost 90 episodes could be asked to just say "Goku and Vegeta's powers work like this!".

What is this, fucking Disney Era Star Wars where you've got to read entire tomes of supplementary material to even understand the mechanics of how our protagonists fucking powers work?!

[Lord Beerus]

I can understand your grievances. But the only people who really put a glass ceiling on the character are the fanbase not the writers. Yes, the writers doe have an obligation to provide more detail for how strong characters can get, but it's not their job to bend over to the will of a fanbase who want their theories and hypothesis of just how characters can truly can under certain circumstances to be justified. Some people may have an issue with it and others don't. Some people what don't like the idea of basic training being applied to characters and them getting much stronger from it, and other don't mind becuase, well, it's a fighting show. That has in the past show that even basic training can yield great results from some characters in growing stronger.

Now is Super using this liberty a bit too much? Well, it's how much you're will to suspend you're disbelief. We know Piccolo has been quietly training since Gohan started studying and we even see Piccolo train with Gohan on-screen and know for a fact he has been that since the end of the events of Resurrection F. Now we know just how much Piccolo made gains by training off-screen for just three years, so it's not really an issue to seem him gor from what ever tier for strength he was previously at to being able to challenge SSJ2 Adult Gohan. There very best we know about Piccolo in relation to Ultimate Gohan is that he can catch him off-guard. But that does that mean he is as strong as Ultimate Gohan? No, it doesn't. That like saying Piccolo was on same tier of strength as Nappa in the Saiyan and Freeza in his final form, because he caught both of their character with off-guard attack, even though in both of the scenario he was much weaker compared to Nappa and Freeza. Or like saying SSJ Kid Trunks is as strong as Majin Boo because he sent him flying with a kick that Majin Boo didn't see coming. Plus, the episode itself in Super where the incident happens stresses within the narrative the notion that Gohan mustn't be like Goku drop his guard at all at any time during a fight, and he still did so and Piccolo punished him for it. So it will serve as a hard lesson for Gohan and build his character to never do so again.

Now the Android 17 complaint? That has been such a "mountain out of a molehill" topic within the fandom.

It must be stressed that we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 (and 18) could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They can literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage with the battle power of Android 17 (and Android 18).

I also don't think he became SSJB level right off the bat. I think he just did some light training over the the last decade or so and his power just unexpectedly creeped to an insane height. Again, it's a rational possibility. There nothing established that it can't happen. It been more than 10 years. Not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. As I've said before, the fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Especially for a character that's never trained before like Android 17.

So... yeah. I really don't see what the major problem is. People train and get stronger. That's just how Dragon Ball has been since day one. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

People say that Android 17 shouldn't become this strong... but... since was it stated that he can't? Why put a literal glass ceiling on how strong a character, who's never trained before, can get? I'm not saying that people don't have the right to criticize Android 17 not going into more depth into how he got stronger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit more detail. But the notion I seem to be coming across is more: "This character should not get this strong because my headcanon says so and so do my power levels". And less, "Wow. Android 17 has gotten really strong. I hope they explain more about this later on."

Just my two cents.

I never said Android 17 getting this much stronger or Piccolo getting stronger broke any established rules, especially 17 who, like you say, has no precedent to firmly judge him on. However, there has to be something for me to buy this. You can't create a narrative where Goku and Vegeta go through various different levels of progressively more and more difficult training to attain the power they have then Freeza shows up, using a skinny asshole as a human dart board and makes Goku & Vegeta's strength gains look like nothing in just a few months when Goku & Vegeta spend a decade getting to their level.

Same thing with 17, him getting stronger as a consequence of his amplifications is more than fair and unlike Freeza, there isn't such a minuscule amount of time to where I want to smack someone in the face for that writing decision. However, there's a big difference for me between getting big strength gains and going from Android tier to forcing Goku to use Blue, especially since Goku's God Base can one-shot Gotenks at SS3. That's too big of a disparity for me to just buy "Oh he trained off screen!" Fuck that. Even Piccolo, who's king of bullshit mountain when it comes to strength gains NEVER makes something that ridiculous.

Give me some good context for this stuff or go the fuck away, Super. FFS, we've had to dig up an old magazine article from 2 years ago to explain how Goku and Vegeta's powers work! No one, in the span of almost 90 episodes could be asked to just say "Goku and Vegeta's powers work like this!".

What is this, fucking Disney Era Star Wars where you've got to read entire tomes of supplementary material to even understand the mechanics of how our protagonists fucking powers work?!

I actually don't mind Freeza's power up because it re-establishes him as freak of nature. People can complain about the circumstance of Freeza's official return in Resurrection F and how they feel the character wasn't explored in all the depth possible, and I will agree on several of those points, despite how much I love the film, but Resurrection F did one thing right in my eyes... it restored the notion that Freeza is a freak of nature that really shouldn't be swept aside so nonchalantly. Considering the concept of the Androids murdered that mystique of Freeza's character by making him seem like the luckiest bastard in the universe. If only Freeza acted a bit more smarter in that movie, he would have won. Oh well.

But you make several fair points. I understand your issues, apart from one... I really like Disney-era Star Wars.

[ekrolo2]

But you make several fair points. I understand your issues, apart from one... I really like Disney-era Star Wars.

I like the books and the comics but the movies are just so.... urk. It's especially annoying that you have to read everything to even remotely care about the movie plot lines.

[Tectorman]

Slightly off-topic.

It must be stressed that we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 (and 18) could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They can literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage with the battle power of Android 17 (and Android 18).

Right now, I'm explaining Android 17 as being a similar situation to Janemba.

In Movie 12, Janemba starts off with the ability to threaten the entire universe. Nevertheless, Goku is able to contend with him in Base. Yes, he needs SSJ3 to land damaging hits, but for all the hype about him threatening the universe, Goku wasn't particularly lagging behind.

So Janemba was a character with vast power, but little ability or experience with using it. So let's say 17 is the same way. Back in the Cell Saga, he was already "above SSJ3 maybe SSB" powerful and the reason we saw neither him nor Semi-Perfect Cell nor Perfect Cell using that sort of power is because they hadn't acquired the experience to use it properly. "Lack of experience" then is to be considered a massive debuff on an otherwise massively powerful character, and it was only when he finally learned how to use that power that he could shed that debuff and act as a character as powerful as he already was.

Still doesn't explain why Dende, who did know where 17 was even if no one else did, didn't suggest someone asking for his help with Beerus or Frieza. But maybe he only made the experience gains necessary to have helped very recently.

...

On the subject of the recent revelation:

[James Earl Jones voice]

Well, well, well.

[/James Earl Jones voice]