Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
That's my point. Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG in their base forms & they've now stopped using it (it was only used in the Copy-Vegeta arc so far after FnF), while Black was still using it. This is what has changed since FnF.
I personally disagree with the whole Godly Bases that were used. We just never even got an explanation why they stopped using it.
I reiterate my observation that RoF establishes that fighting suppressed imposes some manner of energy drain. So when Goku needs to fight at the power of his normal SSJ, he has two options: SbG suppressed to the level of his SSJ (which imposes the afore-mentioned energy drain), or SSJ (which doesn't). If he needs to fight at the level of a SSJ3, he has the same options: SbG suppressed to SSJ3 levels (still the energy drain established by RoF), or SSJ3 (which has its own energy drain).
Now, it's never established how much of an energy drain fighting suppressed is (beyond the fact that doing it for a while against dozens of weaker opponents made the Z Fighters want Senzu beans), or even how it compares to the energy drains of SSJ2 and SSJ3. On the other hand, one can easily take Goku and Vegeta's preferance of using the lesser forms over using suppressed SbG AS the statement of how the two compare. I.e.:
Goku can achieve the same levels of power two ways.
SbG suppressed to Saiyan levels>SbG suppressed to SSJ>SbG suppressed to SSJ2>SbG suppressed to SSJ3>SbG unsuppressed>SSB
OR
Saiyan unsuppressed (no God Ki)>SSJ unsuppressed (no God Ki)>SSJ2 unsuppressed (no God Ki)>SSJ3 unsuppressed (no God Ki)> SbG unsuppressed> SSB unsuppressed
Through both methods, he arrives at the same levels of power. But the latter method has less energy drain (apparently, due to the fact that he uses it instead).
Tectorman wrote:
ryan s wrote:Saiyan beyond God isn't a thing, black could be sensed while fighting SSJ2 Goku by everyone and SSJ2 Goku would be 2x stronger than SSG
The last part of Goku's fight with Beerus (where he was fighting as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God", but still at SSJG levels of power, and where his power COULD be sensed) shows, at least to me, that there's a difference between God Ki power and God Ki nature. Nothing but SSB has both; it has all the power and its energy cannot be sensed by non-deities. "SSbG" (while it was being used, and by inference, SbG) still has God Ki power but not God Ki nature, so the fact that their power can still be sensed in apparent Base is a non-issue.
As for the forms stacking, I took it as a matter of conflicting masteries. Goku can start with SSJ and, having mastered it, unlock the higher forms. Or he can start by using God Ki and apply, at most, SSJ on top. It becomes a matter of juggling too many things at once. Goku has somewhat mastered both paths by themselves, but his ability to combine the two is more limited. Or at least, so far; later, we may see a "SSB2".
I'm sorry, but this is much more complicated than it needs to be. I don't mean that to sound rude or condescending, but there has to be an easier explanation. Toei understood that the Goku Black Timeline was an issue and released a guide. If the writers thought this in-depth and critically about Goku's forms then they would put out a guide.
It TRULY seems to be Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < SSGod < SSBlue. There are some contradictions in BoG and RoF sagas, but this is the easiest answer to work with. Don't get me wrong because I really like this idea presented, but I think it is just too complicated.
In RoF and Potaufeu arcs - slightly stronger than he was as a SSj god vs Beerus
In all other arcs - only so much stronger than his Buu arc self as his training sessions would suggest, so I dunno, 3-4 times stronger than in the Buu arc maybe. Definitely not stronger than SSj3 Gotenks, as that would make Future Trunks and Cabba stronger than him too, and you know deep down that it's preposterous.
I made a thread that speculates as to why keeping Goku's base stronger than SSj God would probably be not such a good decision from a storytelling standpoint.
Also, Saiyan Beyond God never had godly ki, because its power could always be sensed by mortals. It's regular mortal ki, only just as powerful, if not more, as a SSj God. When a Saiyan with the power (not ki) of a Super Saiyan God goes SSj, the result is Super Saiyan Blue. At least it was this way in RoF and Potaufeu arcs. Unless you believe base Cabba who'd never even been a Super Saiyan and Future Trunks are SSj God tier in base.
ChiefWamsutta wrote:I'm sorry, but this is much more complicated than it needs to be. I don't mean that to sound rude or condescending, but there has to be an easier explanation. Toei understood that the Goku Black Timeline was an issue and released a guide. If the writers thought this in-depth and critically about Goku's forms then they would put out a guide.
The most easy explanation is that there are plot-holes all over the place. They haven't bothered explaining it so far, but there are hints all over the place. Besides, when did they explain things properly these days? We never got clear straight-forward explanations about many things like:
They never directly explained how strong base with SSG power is & how transformations work.
They never directly explained how Super Saiyan Blue is achieved.
They never explained directly how Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue (in the movies & manga).
They never explained what Super Saiyan Rose is (in the anime).
They never explained why Black is so strong.
They never explained what the hell Super Saiyan Rage is.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
ryan s wrote:Saiyan beyond God isn't a thing, black could be sensed while fighting SSJ2 Goku by everyone and SSJ2 Goku would be 2x stronger than SSG
The last part of Goku's fight with Beerus (where he was fighting as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God", but still at SSJG levels of power, and where his power COULD be sensed) shows, at least to me, that there's a difference between God Ki power and God Ki nature. Nothing but SSB has both; it has all the power and its energy cannot be sensed by non-deities. "SSbG" (while it was being used, and by inference, SbG) still has God Ki power but not God Ki nature, so the fact that their power can still be sensed in apparent Base is a non-issue.
As for the forms stacking, I took it as a matter of conflicting masteries. Goku can start with SSJ and, having mastered it, unlock the higher forms. Or he can start by using God Ki and apply, at most, SSJ on top. It becomes a matter of juggling too many things at once. Goku has somewhat mastered both paths by themselves, but his ability to combine the two is more limited. Or at least, so far; later, we may see a "SSB2".
I am sorry but this is getting ridiculous, the theory is getting more stupid and unrealistic as more evidence debunks it, it can't be held Goku was a SSJ with regular ki when fighting Beerus and was at the level of SSG
ryan s wrote:I am sorry but this is getting ridiculous, the theory is getting more stupid and unrealistic as more evidence debunks it, it can't be held Goku was a SSJ with regular ki when fighting Beerus and was at the level of SSG
What are you talking about? The sole problem of the "two base theory" is the fact that it has never been directly confirmed outside of video-games.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
ryan s wrote:I am sorry but this is getting ridiculous, the theory is getting more stupid and unrealistic as more evidence debunks it, it can't be held Goku was a SSJ with regular ki when fighting Beerus and was at the level of SSG
What are you talking about? The sole problem of the "two base theory" is the fact that it has never been directly confirmed outside of video-games.
Vegeta in episode 18 was as strong as SSJ Goku who surpassed SSG and in episode 22 Vegeta felt godly ki for the first time, so no saiyan beyond God isn't a thing. they don't switch ki types
ryan s wrote:I am sorry but this is getting ridiculous, the theory is getting more stupid and unrealistic as more evidence debunks it, it can't be held Goku was a SSJ with regular ki when fighting Beerus and was at the level of SSG
What are you talking about? The sole problem of the "two base theory" is the fact that it has never been directly confirmed outside of video-games.
Vegeta in episode 18 was as strong as SSJ Goku who surpassed SSG and in episode 22 Vegeta felt godly ki for the first time, so no saiyan beyond God isn't a thing. they don't switch ki types
The two base theory isn't about changing from normal ki to god ki, that's a misconception. The two base theory is about changing from normal power to SSG power. We know from the anime that using the SSG power in base/SS doesn't give you god ki.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
1) using SSG power as a SSJ would make you turn SSB " This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."!
2) Vegeta didn't have the power of SSG at that time as you obviously need god ki to have SSG power
3) " We know from the anime that using the SSG power in base/SS doesn't give you god ki" you can't assume the two base theory exists and make a absloute statement from it as there is no evidence, SSG power = God ki = can't be sensed, therefore if they are using SSG power in base they would not be able to be sensed
ryan s wrote:1) using SSG power as a SSJ would make you turn SSB " This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."!
Goku & Vegeta (& Black) had to train to make their Super Saiyan from gold to blue (or pink)
2) Vegeta didn't have the power of SSG at that time as you obviously need god ki to have SSG power
Goku said that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, which is why he can go SSB.
3) " We know from the anime that using the SSG power in base/SS doesn't give you god ki" you can't assume the two base theory exists and make a absloute statement from it as there is no evidence, SSG power = God ki = can't be sensed, therefore if they are using SSG power in base they would not be able to be sensed
Watch the scene from Super where Goku goes from SSG to SS. The Z-Warriors on Earth could sense SS Goku's ki, yet SS Goku was as strong as he was in his SSG form because he had absorbed the form's power. So, SS Goku had the power of SSG, yet he didn't have god ki. This isn't an assumption, this was stated.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
ryan s wrote:1) using SSG power as a SSJ would make you turn SSB " This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."!
Goku & Vegeta (& Black) had to train to make their Super Saiyan from gold to blue (or pink)
2) Vegeta didn't have the power of SSG at that time as you obviously need god ki to have SSG power
Goku said that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, which is why he can go SSB.
3) " We know from the anime that using the SSG power in base/SS doesn't give you god ki" you can't assume the two base theory exists and make a absloute statement from it as there is no evidence, SSG power = God ki = can't be sensed, therefore if they are using SSG power in base they would not be able to be sensed
Watch the scene from Super where Goku goes from SSG to SS. The Z-Warriors on Earth could sense SS Goku's ki, yet SS Goku was as strong as he was in his SSG form because he had absorbed the form's power. So, SS Goku had the power of SSG, yet he didn't have god ki. This isn't an assumption, this was stated.
1) i know they did
2) my point was Vegeta never had felt God ki and din't have any God ki so he didn't have the power of SSG
3) yes he had the forms power and it became his own ie his own ki, meaning he could still stack ssj2 and ssj3 onto it
In RoF and Potaufeu arcs - slightly stronger than he was as a SSj god vs Beerus
In all other arcs - only so much stronger than his Buu arc self as his training sessions would suggest, so I dunno, 3-4 times stronger than in the Buu arc maybe. Definitely not stronger than SSj3 Gotenks, as that would make Future Trunks and Cabba stronger than him too, and you know deep down that it's preposterous.
I made a thread that speculates as to why keeping Goku's base stronger than SSj God would probably be not such a good decision from a storytelling standpoint.
Also, Saiyan Beyond God never had godly ki, because its power could always be sensed by mortals. It's regular mortal ki, only just as powerful, if not more, as a SSj God. When a Saiyan with the power (not ki) of a Super Saiyan God goes SSj, the result is Super Saiyan Blue. At least it was this way in RoF and Potaufeu arcs. Unless you believe base Cabba who'd never even been a Super Saiyan and Future Trunks are SSj God tier in base.
Base goku was able to trade blows with base copy vegeta same vegeta that stomped ssj3 gotenks which therefore makes guys like cabba,magetta, frost stronger than gotenks base goku was able to do well against beerus to the point whis had to stop their fight where before ssj3 goku,gotenks,mr buu, mystic gohan were stomped with utter ease sure beerus was in the suit but near he starting to get heated up.
Sorry pal gotensk aint shit in super
2) my point was Vegeta never had felt God ki and din't have any God ki so he didn't have the power of SSG
But Goku literally says in the anime that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, which is why he can go SSB (though it is implied that he became a Super Saiyan God like Goku in the movie & manga continuities).
3) yes he had the forms power and it became his own ie his own ki, meaning he could still stack ssj2 and ssj3 onto it
Yes, but they wouldn't increase his power much. In the movie, Goku was almost as strong as SSG in his base form, and transforming into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God barely increased his power, so transforming into a Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3 would most likely give the same results.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
ryan s wrote:Saiyan beyond God isn't a thing, black could be sensed while fighting SSJ2 Goku by everyone and SSJ2 Goku would be 2x stronger than SSG
The last part of Goku's fight with Beerus (where he was fighting as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God", but still at SSJG levels of power, and where his power COULD be sensed) shows, at least to me, that there's a difference between God Ki power and God Ki nature. Nothing but SSB has both; it has all the power and its energy cannot be sensed by non-deities. "SSbG" (while it was being used, and by inference, SbG) still has God Ki power but not God Ki nature, so the fact that their power can still be sensed in apparent Base is a non-issue.
As for the forms stacking, I took it as a matter of conflicting masteries. Goku can start with SSJ and, having mastered it, unlock the higher forms. Or he can start by using God Ki and apply, at most, SSJ on top. It becomes a matter of juggling too many things at once. Goku has somewhat mastered both paths by themselves, but his ability to combine the two is more limited. Or at least, so far; later, we may see a "SSB2".
I am sorry but this is getting ridiculous, the theory is getting more stupid and unrealistic as more evidence debunks it, it can't be held Goku was a SSJ with regular ki when fighting Beerus and was at the level of SSG
Oh, I'll agree that there are parts where a two-base theorist may have to come up with increasing complicated explanations to keep everything on track. But like I said in the other thread, not subscribing to the two-base theory is also debunked by the twin examples of the Hit fight and the Zamasu fight. IMO, a complicated (even an over-complicated) theory that works is preferable to throwing one's hands in the air.
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!
Tectorman wrote:
The last part of Goku's fight with Beerus (where he was fighting as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God", but still at SSJG levels of power, and where his power COULD be sensed) shows, at least to me, that there's a difference between God Ki power and God Ki nature. Nothing but SSB has both; it has all the power and its energy cannot be sensed by non-deities. "SSbG" (while it was being used, and by inference, SbG) still has God Ki power but not God Ki nature, so the fact that their power can still be sensed in apparent Base is a non-issue.
As for the forms stacking, I took it as a matter of conflicting masteries. Goku can start with SSJ and, having mastered it, unlock the higher forms. Or he can start by using God Ki and apply, at most, SSJ on top. It becomes a matter of juggling too many things at once. Goku has somewhat mastered both paths by themselves, but his ability to combine the two is more limited. Or at least, so far; later, we may see a "SSB2".
I am sorry but this is getting ridiculous, the theory is getting more stupid and unrealistic as more evidence debunks it, it can't be held Goku was a SSJ with regular ki when fighting Beerus and was at the level of SSG
Oh, I'll agree that there are parts where a two-base theorist may have to come up with increasing complicated explanations to keep everything on track. But like I said in the other thread, not subscribing to the two-base theory is also debunked by the twin examples of the Hit fight and the Zamasu fight. IMO, a complicated (even an over-complicated) theory that works is preferable to throwing one's hands in the air.
I'm curious as to what you mean by this.
Also, I think this is a good representation of how god ki and SSBlue work:
2) my point was Vegeta never had felt God ki and din't have any God ki so he didn't have the power of SSG
But Goku literally says in the anime that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, which is why he can go SSB (though it is implied that he became a Super Saiyan God like Goku in the movie & manga continuities).
3) yes he had the forms power and it became his own ie his own ki, meaning he could still stack ssj2 and ssj3 onto it
Yes, but they wouldn't increase his power much. In the movie, Goku was almost as strong as SSG in his base form, and transforming into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God barely increased his power, so transforming into a Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3 would most likely give the same results.
in the anime Goku's increases are stated to be the same from SSJ2 to 3
I have a theory which I already posted in the Super power levels thread: Goku and Vegeta lose their SSG powered base once they turn SSB for the first time, and their bases revert to what they were once (but more powerful because they trained with Whis)
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and friends return
Battle of Gods and Resurrection “F”
Dragon Ball Super Manga + Movies
Lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball DAIMA
emperior wrote:I have a theory which I already posted in the Super power levels thread: Goku and Vegeta lose their SSG powered base once they turn SSB for the first time, and their bases revert to what they were once (but more powerful because they trained with Whis)
emperior wrote:I have a theory which I already posted in the Super power levels thread: Goku and Vegeta lose their SSG powered base once they turn SSB for the first time, and their bases revert to what they were once (but more powerful because they trained with Whis)
This doesn't work because of this:
And later on this:
Considering that fight was from a filler arc not written by Toriyama, I'm not going to consider it.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and friends return
Battle of Gods and Resurrection “F”
Dragon Ball Super Manga + Movies
Lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball DAIMA
emperior wrote:I have a theory which I already posted in the Super power levels thread: Goku and Vegeta lose their SSG powered base once they turn SSB for the first time, and their bases revert to what they were once (but more powerful because they trained with Whis)
This doesn't work because of this:
And later on this:
Considering that fight was from a filler arc not written by Toriyama, I'm not going to consider it.
This is the tricky thing will filler episodes. I'm certain Toriyama doesn't give a flying fudge about what happens in the interlude between one major arc where he provides the story outline for and the next one. But of course, all of Super is technically filler, so should all of the episodes be collectively seen as one story under Toriyama's supervision?
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
