Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

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Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Berserker1921 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:22 pm

I know. I know. Before you say vegeta or Frieza. I know. But my question is for those who aren't prodigies or train with god like beings? Can they ever get god ki through just becoming stronger and stronger?

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:41 pm

The only beings currently with God Ki are: Zeno, Future Zeno, Grand Priest, (maybe the two guards), Angels of U1-12, Gods of Destruction of U1-12, Supreme Kais of U1-12, King Kai, Elder Kai, Dende, Kibito, SSB Goku, and SSB Vegeta.

Everyone in that list besides Goku and Vegeta have God Ki because of their nature in the multiverse.

The Saiyans as a race inherently have transformations that allow them to have God Ki. SSGod and SSBlue.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:36 am

Is it confirmed Dende/Kami has it? If so, who bestowed it upon them?

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:32 pm

As far as we know, certain special individuals like the God of Earth, the Kai's and Kaioshin automatically have God ki bestowed upon them because of their positioning in the realm of Dragon Ball. But guys like Vegeta and Beerus are pretty much proof you can also train to attain God ki. But the threshold required to utilize it is never really specified. All we know is that you have master ki control to the degree where you don't leak any ki. And the dimension in Whis staff also seems to be important in getting a grasp of God ki.

The utilisation and implementation of God Ki has been so vague and weird in Super and has been one of biggest gripes with the show.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by SkuLLR3D » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:04 pm

But I thought the only reason vegeta has god ki is because he trained in that godly realm whis put him and goku into?
From my understanding his body absorbed the god ki.

Frieza shows you can train to attain power almost equal to the ssblue form but he didn't necessarily have god ki.

So I think you have to meet special requirements like Gokus ritual, or train in special realms to actually gain god ki and not just buff up your overall power level.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by MaxZ » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:09 am

I think anyone is capable of attaining it but it's pretty unlikely someone would without special training

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:11 am

A mistake on the writing staff in my honest opinion. Just like everything else in the series, if you train hard enough (like Freeza, and apparently Seventeen, ugh) then you'll unlock that power.
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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:46 am

FoolsGil wrote:A mistake on the writing staff in my honest opinion. Just like everything else in the series, if you train hard enough (like Freeza, and apparently Seventeen, ugh) then you'll unlock that power.
There's nothing to indicate that Freeza or Android 17 have God ki.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Lord Frieza » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:06 am

As far as we know it goes....

Kais, Kaioshin and Angels are born with God Ki.

Planet Guardian deities like Kami and Gods of Destruction are selected from mortals and thus have the God Ki granted to them once they take up the position. How this is done is unknown.

Nothing is know about Zeno at this time.

The only characters to unlock god power who do not actually hold an official position in the cosmos are Saiyans who can gain god ki from the SSG ritual or by training with Whis.

No other official character has God ki.

Outside official Demigra is the only other character who possess god ki or at least he potentially dose. Goku merely stated he could not sense Demigra's ki. Presumably this applies to all the demons in DB Heroes who gain the rank of Demon God and it seems to be achieved through dark magic.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:23 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:A mistake on the writing staff in my honest opinion. Just like everything else in the series, if you train hard enough (like Freeza, and apparently Seventeen, ugh) then you'll unlock that power.
There's nothing to indicate that Freeza or Android 17 have God ki.
But it's a power that rivals Gods. At this point the only difference between the Ki Freeza wielded and Beers wielded was that Beers' can't be sensed. There's nothing special about God Ki now, or the Gods of Destruction themselves.
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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:23 am

The first thing that needs to be said is that God ki does not equal power/strength. The two concepts are separate from each other.

BoG implied that God ki was inherently powerful, so much so that normal sensible ki could never hope to reach a fraction of that level.
The problem is that this implication was basically changed with Golden Frieza, where by a normal ki character increases their ki to what we thought were God ki levels in a relatively short timespan of 4 months.

So to answer the question we have no idea how it works or if its even necessary. We know mortal beings can get a strong as Gods without God ki, but we also know beings with God ki do not have to be incredibly strong either such as Kaioshin.

Basically "God" level is about as normal as SSJ now except apparently it may be theoretically possible for literally everyone to get there if they train hard enough.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:24 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:A mistake on the writing staff in my honest opinion. Just like everything else in the series, if you train hard enough (like Freeza, and apparently Seventeen, ugh) then you'll unlock that power.
There's nothing to indicate that Freeza or Android 17 have God ki.
But it's a power that rivals Gods. At this point the only difference between the Ki Freeza wielded and Beers wielded was that Beers' can't be sensed. There's nothing special about God Ki now, or the Gods of Destruction themselves.
That's exactly correct. There's almost no point to making it so that it can't be sensed.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:46 am

TheMikado wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: There's nothing to indicate that Freeza or Android 17 have God ki.
But it's a power that rivals Gods. At this point the only difference between the Ki Freeza wielded and Beers wielded was that Beers' can't be sensed. There's nothing special about God Ki now, or the Gods of Destruction themselves.
That's exactly correct. There's almost no point to making it so that it can't be sensed.
One of the recurring themes of Dragon Ball is that cast find new ways to rival and surpass the "Gods" on Dragon Ball. Kami, King Kai, Kaioshin etc. Whether or not the cast will surpass the Hakaishin at this stage is up for debate. But the fact is none of the cast at this stage have show a power that surpassed any of the Hakaishin. They can put a fight, but in terms of rivalling a Hakaishin, that has yet to be proven, expect in the case when a Hakaishin deliberately lowers his strength or doesn't use all of their power. The Hakaishin still play a vital role in the universe, regardless if user become strong enough to sense their ki.

I personally think people are really blowing out-of proportion, just how strong the current cast are. The only characters in the central cast who have show to legitimately reach the realm of the Gods (the Hakaishin and Kaioshin) are Goku, Vegeta and Android 17. And in the case of Android 17, it's only because he's far stronger than SSJ Goku. How well he matches up against SSJB Goku is still inconclusive as Goku was holding back his strength to make sure he didn't kill Android.

And in the case of Krillin, as everybody loves to bring that up, Goku knows exactly how much strength as SSJB could instantly overwhelm Krillin. Whether it be a fraction. A fraction of a fraction. Or a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. I mean, we see Goku and Vegeta play freakin baseball as Super Saiyan Blue's and they don't kill anyone even in that circumstance. Goku is very much capable of monitoring how much ki his outputs in any of Super Saiyan form regardless of how strong it is. The point of SSJB being utilized was to send of an impression what kind of fighters Krillin may be up against in the Tournament of Power. He's prone to getting nervous even from just sensing immense strength and he's never fought an opponent who as otherworldly or Godly ki before. So going up against person like SSJB was totally new experience for him. Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react if he faced such an opponent with an intimidating presence and aura to them. That why Goku literally asks Krillin what he would do once Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue. And Krillin didn't back down at all much to Goku's surprise.

When people see Goku use SSJB they automatically assume that Goku is using a good chunk of that power in that form to fight someone even though there are several tiers of strength from SSJ3 to SSJB that Goku can utilize.

People often also complain about how SSJB being used too much but the reason SSJB is used as often as it by Goku is becuase it the optimal transformation. You can seamlessly control its power output from something that is very miniscule to something incredibly powerful instantaneously. SSJB basically works the perfect substitute for every other Super Saiyan transformation. Plus, you don't have to worry about any stamina issue given that SSJB work under the criteria of a transformation that doesn't leak ki. That's the sole reason Goku could use the Kaioken on top of SSJB and have to worry about dropping out of SSJB from ki depletion of stamina loss. While as a SSBJ he can perfectly managed how much ki he expends to be able to use dangerous and risky techniques like the Kaioken on top of his SSJB form and not have to worry about wasting so much ki that he can't maintain SSJB after the effects of the Kaioken expire.

SSJB is pretty much the perfect transformation. Super Saiyan Blue basically as the ultimate Super Saiyan transformation. It's the personification of the maximum power a Saiyan can achieve through training and other means, as well as manifestation of absolute perfect Ki control. It's the perfect jack-of-all-stats form. At this stage Goku only really needs to transform into SSJ1/2/3 to serve a warm-up for when he spars with someone or when he's not taking a fight seriously. And for marketing reasons.

Hm. When off on a tangent there. Sorry about that. :shifty:

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:07 am

The problem with that is that historically Dragon Ball has also obsoleted useless techniques such as kaioken. If there is truly no tangible benefit and SSB doesn't drain stamina like SSJ then there is no in-universe reason for Goku/Vegeta to not automatically always use SSB. I've stated this in the other thread but the idea that SSB output can be manipulated and how creating lore which isn't actual stated or exist is not a valid argument. There's no need to retread that.

The surpassing the God's angle is fine and I like the trope. The problem is we are at punching incorrectly = universe destruction levels. A power which Golden Frieza and Hit are shown to have even surpassed. Basically what I am getting from this users question is where does God ki come from, how strong is it, and do you actually need it. You can tell the original poster is completely confused because he references both Vegeta and Frieza as thinking they trained to have God ki when only Vegeta did. The poster made the natural assumption that if you get to that level of power you are using God ki, which is incorrect. I don't blame him for assuming that. In this poster's mind they are fighting at the same level, so the assumption is they are using the same type of ki.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:40 am

TheMikado wrote:The problem with that is that historically Dragon Ball has also obsoleted useless techniques such as kaioken. If there is truly no tangible benefit and SSB doesn't drain stamina like SSJ then there is no in-universe reason for Goku/Vegeta to not automatically always use SSB. I've stated this in the other thread but the idea that SSB output can be manipulated and how creating lore which isn't actual stated or exist is not a valid argument. There's no need to retread that.

The surpassing the God's angle is fine and I like the trope. The problem is we are at punching incorrectly = universe destruction levels. A power which Golden Frieza and Hit are shown to have even surpassed. Basically what I am getting from this users question is where does God ki come from, how strong is it, and do you actually need it. You can tell the original poster is completely confused because he references both Vegeta and Frieza as thinking they trained to have God ki when only Vegeta did. The poster made the natural assumption that if you get to that level of power you are using God ki, which is incorrect. I don't blame him for assuming that. In this poster's mind they are fighting at the same level, so the assumption is they are using the same type of ki.
To be fair, the only reason that Goku stopped using the Kaioken was because Super Saiyan became a thing. Hell, Goku prior to be becoming a Super Saiyan, had already mastered the Kaioken to the degree where he could use it continuously in a fight without too much strain. And as explained in Episode 39 of Super, the major reason that Goku didn't use the Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan in the past was because the Super Saiyan form is hard on the body all on its own, which made using the two of them together virtually suicidal, hence why Goku abandoned the Kaioken for a long time. But Super Saiyan Blue is a strong and “calm” form with perfect ki control, so using it and the Kaio-Ken together is feasible.

And to be fair, yes, Dragon Ball Super went to universe destructing feats a bit too soon. But realistically, it should have reached that stage before even Beerus and Super Saiyan God was a thing. Especially given how much the story escalated in terms of power and "feats" from the initial fight between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and beyond that. I mean, Cell threatened to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by just screaming for crying out loud. :P
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:44 am

Lord Beerus wrote:And to be fair, yes, Dragon Ball Super went to universe destructing feats a bit too soon. But realistically it should have reached that stage before even Beerus and Super Saiyan God was thing. Given how much the story escalated in terms of power and "feats" from the initial fight between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and beyond that. I mean, Cell threatened to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by just screaming for crying out loud. :P
It's still a poor story choice to have it escalate that quickly. Having Vegeta actually be able to blow up a planet in the Saiyan arc is pretty much the unofficial precursor to the universe blasting feat of Super. Both of those should've been saved for later stuff because everyone making a big deal of out Freeza blowing up a planet later on is a big whatever when his Saiyan grunt, Vegeta, could do it just fine.
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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:48 am

You say it should have been "saved for later", but that doesn't reconcile with how we know Dragon Ball was originally produced. Toriyama was constantly trying to end the series! I mean, "Z" is named as such because Toriyama thought they were nearing the end! And while Toriyama stated "I don't want to end it yet" during the Freeza arc, there's no context for how much beyond that arc he would have been thinking about.

Sorry to take it out-of-universe, but it's incredibly important to have that context when having this discussion.
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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:16 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:And to be fair, yes, Dragon Ball Super went to universe destructing feats a bit too soon. But realistically, it should have reached that stage before even Beerus and Super Saiyan God was a thing. Especially given how much the story escalated in terms of power and "feats" from the initial fight between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and beyond that. I mean, Cell threatened to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by just screaming for crying out loud. :P
It's still a poor story choice to have it escalate that quickly. Having Vegeta actually be able to blow up a planet in the Saiyan arc is pretty much the unofficial precursor to the universe blasting feat of Super. Both of those should've been saved for later stuff because everyone making a big deal of out Freeza blowing up a planet later on is a big whatever when his Saiyan grunt, Vegeta, could do it just fine.
As VegettoEX pointed out, Toriyama himself was undecided and unclear on exactly when he want to end the show. Hence why every would always try to spectacularly outdo the previous arc in terms of flashy techniques and "feats". So that if he chose the end those story there, it would feel like the final arc ended with the greatest amount aesthetic pleasure. Hence why we went from the moon blowing up from one arc, to the world being nearly torn apart by just powering up in the next, and then planets getting nuked in the following arc, to then the solar system being threatened with a single blast in the next arc and then the fabric of reality being torn apart by just yelling in the arc after that one.

Serial escalation from a man who writes by the seat of his pants in its purest and finest form. :)

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:18 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
TheMikado wrote:The problem with that is that historically Dragon Ball has also obsoleted useless techniques such as kaioken. If there is truly no tangible benefit and SSB doesn't drain stamina like SSJ then there is no in-universe reason for Goku/Vegeta to not automatically always use SSB. I've stated this in the other thread but the idea that SSB output can be manipulated and how creating lore which isn't actual stated or exist is not a valid argument. There's no need to retread that.

The surpassing the God's angle is fine and I like the trope. The problem is we are at punching incorrectly = universe destruction levels. A power which Golden Frieza and Hit are shown to have even surpassed. Basically what I am getting from this users question is where does God ki come from, how strong is it, and do you actually need it. You can tell the original poster is completely confused because he references both Vegeta and Frieza as thinking they trained to have God ki when only Vegeta did. The poster made the natural assumption that if you get to that level of power you are using God ki, which is incorrect. I don't blame him for assuming that. In this poster's mind they are fighting at the same level, so the assumption is they are using the same type of ki.
To be fair, the only reason that Goku stopped using the Kaioken was because Super Saiyan became a thing. Hell, Goku prior to be becoming a Super Saiyan, had already mastered the Kaioken to the degree where he could use it continuously in a fight without too much strain. And as explained in Episode 39 of Super, the major reason that Goku didn't use the Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan in the past was because the Super Saiyan form is hard on the body all on its own, which made using the two of them together virtually suicidal, hence why Goku abandoned the Kaioken for a long time. But Super Saiyan Blue is a strong and “calm” form with perfect ki control, so using it and the Kaio-Ken together is feasible.

And to be fair, yes, Dragon Ball Super went to universe destructing feats a bit too soon. But realistically it should have reached that stage before even Beerus and Super Saiyan God was thing. Given how much the story escalated in terms of power and "feats" from the initial fight between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and beyond that. I mean, Cell threatened to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by just screaming for crying out loud. :P
I agree and this is my single greatest issue with Super in terms of how it drives the plot.

When last leave our fighters the greatest threat they have every seen is Majin Buu, an entity that took several years to destroy a few hundred planets. Prior to that it was Cell who was only capable of solar system level destruction. Even in GT, the greatest and most powerful enemy they faced was only capable of Galaxy level destruction.

This is when we are introduced to Beerus and SSG, where just the shockwave from their punches is casually destroying planets across the universe and threatens, through punching incorrectly, the entire universe. This first introductory arc ends with learning that Goku, as a SSJ, not even SSJ2/3 is around that same level of power.

Jumping to the Frieza arc we find that Goku and somehow Vegeta through specialized trained have surpassed the level of universe punching strength. However we also learn that Frieza trains for 4 months and reaches a level which surpasses SSG and universe punching strength. We accept this because we are told Frieza is a mutant who never trains.

Then we are in the Champa arc and see Goku go SSJ, which in the first arc was said to be around SSG level with the capacity to punch the universe out of existence. Vegeta, as a SSJ should also be around this level. So when we see fighters who have them go SSJ because their base isn't enough we have to assume they should be capable of at least punching a small planet out of existence or about 1/50 the strength of SSG. Then we see Hit go up against SSB, a form which has surpassed SSG levels of punching out the universe. But Hit is still hanging in there, then Goku turns it up and notch and stacks KK on top of SSB. At this point in our minds speaking too loudly could destroy the universe. But then Goku cranks it up to 11, (well actually 10), with KK x SSB x 10. You would think just the beating of his heart or passing gas would be enough to destroy a planet.

Then we see Base Goku take on Beerus, and SSJ3 Gotenks take on Base Vegeta level who completely tanks everything.

Then Trunks appears. A guy who had training with the Z sword and supreme kai and he is only able to barely defeat Dabura. However sometime after is shown to be sparring fairly evenly with SSJ Goku. The same Goku who was capable of punching the universe out of existence a few arcs ago but only after obtaining the specialest of special ki, God ki.

I'm actually getting tired so I won't go into the whole Zamasu/Black or any of the other filler like SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan.

The point I'm making is that from the beginning arc a standard was set.
Base Goku = greater than SSJ3 Gotenks.
SSJ Goku = SSG levels.

When we see anyone doing anything at or exceeding either of those two levels based on what was presented and reinforced we start asking the question are they God tier, how did they get that strong? It's not an unreasonable question to ask. Are the power of base and SSJ inappropriately exaggerated or are characters really getting to that level?

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Re: Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:31 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:And to be fair, yes, Dragon Ball Super went to universe destructing feats a bit too soon. But realistically, it should have reached that stage before even Beerus and Super Saiyan God was a thing. Especially given how much the story escalated in terms of power and "feats" from the initial fight between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and beyond that. I mean, Cell threatened to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by just screaming for crying out loud. :P
It's still a poor story choice to have it escalate that quickly. Having Vegeta actually be able to blow up a planet in the Saiyan arc is pretty much the unofficial precursor to the universe blasting feat of Super. Both of those should've been saved for later stuff because everyone making a big deal of out Freeza blowing up a planet later on is a big whatever when his Saiyan grunt, Vegeta, could do it just fine.
As VegettoEX pointed out, Toriyama himself was undecided and unclear on exactly when he want to end the show. Hence why every would always try to spectacularly outdo the previous arc in terms of flashy techniques and "feats". So that if he chose the end those story there, it would feel like the final arc ended with the greatest amount aesthetic pleasure. Hence why we went from the moon blowing up from one arc, to the world being nearly torn apart by just powering up in the next, and then planets getting nuked in the following arc, to then the solar system being threatened with a single blast in the next arc and then the fabric of reality being torn apart by just yelling in the arc after that one.

Serial escalation from a man who writes by the seat of his pants in its purest and finest form. :)
And it definitely shows cause it makes a lot of later arc stuff totally underwhelming besides Boo screaming to tear through a dimension.
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