Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

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Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by ahill1 » Sat May 13, 2017 12:24 am

Was there a contradiction between Daizenshuu 7 and Daizenshuu 2 regarding whether Gohan was a SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabra?

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Kaboom » Sat May 13, 2017 12:37 am

I don't believe so... After recently putting everything together, I think it's actually just a manga/anime difference.

While the original manga's artwork pretty clearly portrayed Gohan as just a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra, the anime kind of did its own thing and seemed to intentionally make him a Super Saiyan 2 instead. It used the different style of darker aura shading that often shows up in the anime for SS2 in lieu of the manga's lightning, and inserted some new narration and dialogue lines about how Gohan was "fighting at full throttle" and "trying his very hardest" and what-not.

Daizenshuu #2's "Growing Up" guide is only concerned with the manga, citing specific volumes of it for the characters' form appearances rather than anime episodes. So when that says "High School era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan didn't appear after Volume 37, whereas his fight with Dabra was in Volume 38, that fits neatly and cleanly with what the manga shows. But Daizenshuu #7's character dictionary is more all-encompassing, and includes anime elements and characters too. Since what form Gohan used in one fight is a pretty inconsequential detail not really worthy of a separate "anime" entry anywhere, it makes sense to just drop a "Super Saiyan 2" bit into Dabra's regular D7 bio and subtly make note of it that way.
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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 13, 2017 1:25 am

Kaboom wrote:While the original manga's artwork pretty clearly portrayed Gohan as just a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra, the anime kind of did its own thing and seemed to intentionally make him a Super Saiyan 2 instead.
Are you sure? Because clearly that hair belongs to Super Saiyan 2. Conversely, Toriyama never forgot the lightnings as far as I'm concerned. I'd say both Toriyama and Toei made a mistake there.

Image

In the manga, you can say Gohan was fighting against Dabura using Super Saiyan but for some reason Toriyama drew his hair as Super Saiyan 2 (under the explanation that Toriyama never forgot the lightnings), while in the anime, well... Any answer you could come up with would probably be correct.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat May 13, 2017 1:43 am

Grimlock wrote:
Kaboom wrote:While the original manga's artwork pretty clearly portrayed Gohan as just a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra, the anime kind of did its own thing and seemed to intentionally make him a Super Saiyan 2 instead.
Are you sure? Because clearly that hair belongs to Super Saiyan 2....
This is interesting enough. That definitely is SS2 hair Gohan has in the Dabra fight, it doesn't line up with any instances of SS1 in the manga. However, none of the SS2 visual effects are there. In the show, it's pretty clear that SS2 is the intent.

Unless I've made a mistake, I'm inclined to think that he was using SS2, and the guidebook was wrong here. It wouldn't be the first time.
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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat May 13, 2017 1:58 am

Grimlock wrote:
Kaboom wrote:While the original manga's artwork pretty clearly portrayed Gohan as just a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra, the anime kind of did its own thing and seemed to intentionally make him a Super Saiyan 2 instead.
Are you sure? Because clearly that hair belongs to Super Saiyan 2. Conversely, Toriyama never forgot the lightnings as far as I'm concerned. I'd say both Toriyama and Toei made a mistake there.

Image

In the manga, you can say Gohan was fighting against Dabura using Super Saiyan but for some reason Toriyama drew his hair as Super Saiyan 2 (under the explanation that Toriyama never forgot the lightnings), while in the anime, well... Any answer you could come up with would probably be correct.
We saw Toriyama drawing Gohan's Ssj form that way even before we were shown his Buu arc Ssj2 style. As such, one could argue that it falls under the same category as Vegeta's Ssj and Ssj2 hair styles by that point, that by this point Toriyama had designed them so there's so little difference between them that you can't use the hair itself to determine the form, and have to go with other visual clues.
Last edited by Darkprince410 on Sat May 13, 2017 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 13, 2017 2:02 am

Whatever ambiguity the Daizenshuu's had, Toyotaro's Super manga pretty much answered the question of where Dabura falls in strength wise.

[spoiler]He's SSJ2 tier.[/spoiler]

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat May 13, 2017 2:08 am

ZombieVito wrote:Whatever ambiguity the Daizenshuu's had, Toyotaro's Super manga pretty much answered the question of where Dabura falls in strength wise.

[spoiler]He's SSJ2 tier.[/spoiler]
Therein lies some problem though. We don't know exactly how powerful Trunks was when transforming in relation to Gohan during the Buu arc, and once Trunks transformed in Super (manga and anime), he dominated Dabra rather heavily. If anything that puts him far closer to being just high Ssj tier rather than Ssj2.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat May 13, 2017 2:09 am

Darkprince410 wrote:We saw Toriyama drawing Gohan's Ssj formthat way even before we were shown his Buu arc Ssj2 style.
You're referencing a moment of rage for Gohan. I'd argue that these examples are also of SS2.
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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 13, 2017 2:13 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Whatever ambiguity the Daizenshuu's had, Toyotaro's Super manga pretty much answered the question of where Dabura falls in strength wise.

[spoiler]He's SSJ2 tier.[/spoiler]
Therein lies some problem though. We don't know exactly how powerful Trunks was when transforming in relation to Gohan during the Buu arc, and once Trunks transformed in Super (manga and anime), he dominated Dabra rather heavily. If anything that puts him far closer to being just high Ssj tier rather than Ssj2.
It's not really a problem.

Trunks in that fight was stronger than Goku in the Boo arc (Gohan was after his training with the Z sword) and he still lost to Dabura as a SSJ. In comparison Gohan was not losing against him and he was weaker than Goku by a good margin. So by logic, Gohan can only be a SSJ2 in that fight.

The anime corrected this mistake.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat May 13, 2017 2:45 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:We saw Toriyama drawing Gohan's Ssj formthat way even before we were shown his Buu arc Ssj2 style.
You're referencing a moment of rage for Gohan. I'd argue that these examples are also of SS2.
Except that between Kibito's reaction to learning there was a form above Super Saiyan and the overall lack of reaction from Spopovitch or Yam as far as their sensor device was concerned, there seemed to be no indication that he was Ssj2 or putting out anywhere near Ssj2 levels of power.

His normal, base form hair style was noticeably different following the month of training for the Budoukai than it was beforehand, so there's no reason that his Ssj hair style after the training wouldn't also be different from before.
ZombieVito wrote:Trunks in that fight was stronger than Goku in the Boo arc (Gohan was after his training with the Z sword) and he still lost to Dabura as a SSJ. In comparison Gohan was not losing against him and he was weaker than Goku by a good margin. So by logic, Gohan can only be a SSJ2 in that fight.
His somewhat ease at being able to lift the Z Sword by itself doesn't mean that much, given that there are a number of panels in the manga that showed that Trunks was still showing signs of difficulty in lifting it while in his base form. Secondly, this is a Dabra 10 years older than the one from the Buu arc, so he could very well be stronger than the one Gohan fought. Third, given that we know Pui Pui and Yakon were defeated as well and the state all three heroes (Trunks, Kaioushin, and Kibito) were in, Trunks, by the time he got to his fight with Dabra, may have been in a weakened state and not at full power.

There's just a number of factors present that keep us from definitively saying that Dabra was Ssj2 tier and that Gohan had to be Ssj2 during their fight in the Buu arc.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Sat May 13, 2017 2:54 am

If only Gohans SSJ2 removed all his bangs. This would have been solved years ago.
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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 13, 2017 2:55 am

Darkprince410 wrote: His somewhat ease at being able to lift the Z Sword by itself doesn't mean that much, given that there are a number of panels in the manga that showed that Trunks was still showing signs of difficulty in lifting it while in his base form. Secondly, this is a Dabra 10 years older than the one from the Buu arc, so he could very well be stronger than the one Gohan fought. Third, given that we know Pui Pui and Yakon were defeated as well and the state all three heroes (Trunks, Kaioushin, and Kibito) were in, Trunks, by the time he got to his fight with Dabra, may have been in a weakened state and not at full power.

There's just a number of factors present that keep us from definitively saying that Dabra was Ssj2 tier and that Gohan had to be Ssj2 during their fight in the Buu arc.
- He still demonstrated far better control than Goku did.
- Was never confirmed he got stronger or that he trained.
- The reason Trunks is like that is because he fought Dabura... Pui Pui and Yakon are nothing to Trunks or Shin. They can pretty much one shot them like nothing.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat May 13, 2017 5:07 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:We saw Toriyama drawing Gohan's Ssj formthat way even before we were shown his Buu arc Ssj2 style.
You're referencing a moment of rage for Gohan. I'd argue that these examples are also of SS2.
Except that between Kibito's reaction to learning there was a form above Super Saiyan and the overall lack of reaction from Spopovitch or Yam as far as their sensor device was concerned, there seemed to be no indication that he was Ssj2 or putting out anywhere near Ssj2 levels of power.

His normal, base form hair style was noticeably different following the month of training for the Budoukai than it was beforehand, so there's no reason that his Ssj hair style after the training wouldn't also be different from before.
It's worth noting that in the manga, Kibito & Kaioshin were not in the vicinity to see Gohan transform during Videl's match; the anime depicts this differently however. Yam had sequestered himself from Gohan and co. as well, and wasn't shown using the device, since he likely wasn't expecting Videl's power to be of significance.

Toriyama actually does draw Gohan's SSJ1 form during the time of the Budokai prior to Videl's match, as the cover page for an issue of Weekly Shonen Jump. His hair is depicted as spiky as it was during Videl's match and beyond, but the major difference being the 2nd bang over his forehead remains drawn, as seen in his earlier SSJ1 appearances, as well as in his base form.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by nickzambuto » Sat May 13, 2017 1:52 pm

People need to understand that SSJ2 did not exist until Goku explained the concept to Boo. At the time Gohan fought Dabra, he was just a Super Saiyan, there was no difference in his form compared to anybody else besides the fact that he has gotten more powerful. The lightning and other visual cues for the form appear to display incredible power and anger, but they aren't there to showcase an entirely new form, that means Toriyama is allowed to laze out and not put in all those details. In-universe, the lightning appears when a character is enraged, but the whole point of the Dabra fight was that Gohan lost his fighting sense and couldn't summon his angry power any more. That doesn't mean he wasn't fighting for survival and trying to put Dabra down. There's absolutely no reason Gohan would hold back against Dabra. He was using the full strength he had at his disposal.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Kaboom » Sat May 13, 2017 2:16 pm

I dunno about that. Even before Goku applied the specific names to them, there was still plenty else that labeled SS2 as a distinct and separate state above regular Super Saiyan. When Gohan used it at the tournament for Kibito, he specifically said he was going to "become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall." Vegeta said the same kind of thing after Goku asploded Yakon, and Piccolo said it yet again when he saw Vegeta about to fight Boo.

It's almost like Toriyama went out of his way to specially show and tell whenever a character used it, and the profound lack of both visual and verbal indication of it for Gohan outside of that one instance in the tournament is quite telling. Whatever that wall-broken, higher-powered Super Saiyan state was called or considered at the time, the manga's visuals pretty clearly showed that Gohan was not using it against Dabra.
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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat May 13, 2017 2:46 pm

nickzambuto wrote:People need to understand that SSJ2 did not exist until Goku explained the concept to Boo. At the time Gohan fought Dabra, he was just a Super Saiyan, there was no difference in his form compared to anybody else besides the fact that he has gotten more powerful. The lightning and other visual cues for the form appear to display incredible power and anger, but they aren't there to showcase an entirely new form, that means Toriyama is allowed to laze out and not put in all those details. In-universe, the lightning appears when a character is enraged, but the whole point of the Dabra fight was that Gohan lost his fighting sense and couldn't summon his angry power any more. That doesn't mean he wasn't fighting for survival and trying to put Dabra down. There's absolutely no reason Gohan would hold back against Dabra. He was using the full strength he had at his disposal.
As Kaboom says, even before Goku name-dropped Super Saiyan 2 and 3, there was still a distinction between Super Saiyan and "the level beyond Super Saiyan". And while the forms don't look that different in the Boo Arc, Kid Gohan's SS2 looks very distinct from the regular variety.

And there are plenty of potential reasons why Gohan didn't go that far against Dabra. The most obvious being that Gohan can't just pop into SS2 like Goku and Vegeta could. With how out of shape he was, Gohan needed time to build his strength to burst into it. Time that Kibito was willing to provide and time that Dabra wasn't. Somewhat less obvious than that is that Gohan was still somewhat emotional over Videl's beating when he faced off against Kibito, whereas he had plenty of time to calm down by the time he was squaring off against Dabra.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by ahill1 » Sat May 13, 2017 3:26 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:And there are plenty of potential reasons why Gohan didn't go that far against Dabra. The most obvious being that Gohan can't just pop into SS2 like Goku and Vegeta could. With how out of shape he was, Gohan needed time to build his strength to burst into it. Time that Kibito was willing to provide and time that Dabra wasn't.
That was probably not the case though, as Gohan had plenty of time to do so at Boo's shell considering Dabura wasn't in a hurry to attack him. He flared his aura in a more intense way before doing that KMHMH and still wasn't noted to be any different from before. Goku also wouldn't be acting like "ohh, he really did slack off, he's not completely losing..." if Gohan had an accessible strength in which he could rip Dabura apart like paper. Gohan had to get angry like in the Cell Games to get rid of Dabura, not just have time to showcase his true strength (which he had plenty at Boo's shell btw). He just never showed it after the Budokai, likely because by some reason he could no longer access it. Or he did and AT just didn't put the sparks because... reasons.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 13, 2017 4:12 pm

nickzambuto wrote:People need to understand that SSJ2 did not exist until Goku explained the concept to Boo.
So you're saying that Goku and Majin Vegeta fought as Super Saiyan even though there are clear evidences suggesting that they fought in Super Saiyan 2? Or are you talking about the name itself? Which obviously the name "Super Saiyan 2" didn't exist until coined during Majin Buu and Goku fight (but what existed was "Super Saiyan Grade 5". Nonetheless, the lack of a name doesn't mean the actual form doesn't exist as well).

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by nickzambuto » Sat May 13, 2017 8:41 pm

Grimlock wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:People need to understand that SSJ2 did not exist until Goku explained the concept to Boo.
So you're saying that Goku and Majin Vegeta fought as Super Saiyan even though there are clear evidences suggesting that they fought in Super Saiyan 2? Or are you talking about the name itself? Which obviously the name "Super Saiyan 2" didn't exist until coined during Majin Buu and Goku fight (but what existed was "Super Saiyan Grade 5". Nonetheless, the lack of a name doesn't mean the actual form doesn't exist as well).
I'm saying that at the time, there was no distinction between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, Goku and Vegeta were certainly using their full power but it wasn't an entirely new form.

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Re: Did the Daizenshuu contradict itself regarding which form Gohan was using?

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat May 13, 2017 11:22 pm

ahill1 wrote:That was probably not the case though, as Gohan had plenty of time to do so at Boo's shell considering Dabura wasn't in a hurry to attack him. He flared his aura in a more intense way before doing that KMHMH and still wasn't noted to be any different from before. Goku also wouldn't be acting like "ohh, he really did slack off, he's not completely losing..." if Gohan had an accessible strength in which he could rip Dabura apart like paper. Gohan had to get angry like in the Cell Games to get rid of Dabura, not just have time to showcase his true strength (which he had plenty at Boo's shell btw). He just never showed it after the Budokai, likely because by some reason he could no longer access it. Or he did and AT just didn't put the sparks because... reasons.
I'll admit that it isn't really clear-cut why sometimes can and can't use Super Saiyan 2. Methinks that Toriyama regretted having him use it at the tournament and kinda tried to sweep it under the rug and only have him use Super Saiyan from then on. A possible In-Universe explanation as to why he didn't use it at Boo's Shell is because the apprehension of Boo's awakening was interfering with his anger. Not a great reason, but Toriyama's writing isn't as consistent as his art, I'm afraid.
nickzambuto wrote:I'm saying that at the time, there was no distinction between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, Goku and Vegeta were certainly using their full power but it wasn't an entirely new form.
It was considered a new form, why else would it be referred to as "beyond the Super Saiyan wall", if it wasn't different than Super Saiyan? Toriyama was noting the distinction when he calls it that, and Shueisha noted the distinction when they called it Grade V.

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