Broli and Coola are really canon?

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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by Cetra » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:48 am

Duo wrote: Akira Toriyama also designed characters from Chrono Trigger and the Dragon Quest series, as well as Blue Dragon some years later. Nothing about that makes those games or designs related to the continuity of Dragon Ball at all whatsoever.
That comparison could not be more off. The Dragon Ball Movies are Dragon Ball Products. Chrono and Quest are not.
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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:57 am

As Kaboom mentioned earlier, there is no official DB canon. I wish that meme would die. On the subject of continuity though, the closest we have is the anime timeline in Daizenshuu 7. According to that, the Garlic Jr and Cooler movies happened in the anime continuity, but the Broly movies did not.
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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by Duo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:44 am

Cetra wrote:
Duo wrote: Akira Toriyama also designed characters from Chrono Trigger and the Dragon Quest series, as well as Blue Dragon some years later. Nothing about that makes those games or designs related to the continuity of Dragon Ball at all whatsoever.
That comparison could not be more off. The Dragon Ball Movies are Dragon Ball Products. Chrono and Quest are not.
The point stands firm that drawing a character is completely removed from a statement of continuity. Half of the covers Toriyama drew for the manga volumes (tankobon) can't possibly be "canon", as well.
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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by szopman » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:34 am

Cooler - if someone counts GT as canon (I do), then Cooler would be canon (at least the first movie, cause there's no way to connect second Coola movie with the series canon) since he appears in GT's Super 17 Saga :)
Brolly - I don't think so, not anymore. I mean, they saw LSSJ Kale and they didn't recognize the form, they didn't mention Brolly, so it's obvious that the movie doesn't take place in the series timeline.

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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:35 am

DBS isn't 100% canon, Toriyama's script is canon but the Manga (made by Toyotaro) and anime (made by Toei) are two adaptations, so I don't know if we can consider DBS as canon... DB/DBZ/DBminus are canon because it is made by Akira Toriyama. The others are not. If you have never seen Cooler or Broly in DB/DBZ/DBminus that just means they are non-canon. But if Toriyama says that all the movie-characters are canon, that'd make them canon, doesn't matter if some people will disagree with it.
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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:18 pm

BrolyKale wrote:DBS isn't 100% canon, Toriyama's script is canon but the Manga (made by Toyotaro) and anime (made by Toei) are two adaptations, so I don't know if we can consider DBS as canon.
Even his scripts can be questioned. Talking about the Trunks arc he said "I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office" so it wasn't completely his idea. Looking on how plain the current arc is, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also made on their request with even less involvment from him. We didn't even get a comment for it like the previous 2 arcs and movies.

During an interview after BOG he said Goku would just use his base and Ssj forms yet we got SsjB less than a year after so was that their idea as well ? it seems odd he'd say one thing then completely go against it a minute later. Freeza and Saiyans are very popular so were the alternate ones we got form U6 also their suggestion ?

As of now, the only new story that's close to 100% Toriyama is BOG, everything else has company/merchandise hands all over it.
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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:32 pm

Why are the scripts relevant at all? They are not the product. The anime is the main product.

Like, the scripts are the only thing being discussed here that are objectively non-canon, because they are not products that are part of the franchise!
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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by Zephyr » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:37 pm

Bah, who cares about the franchise. It's all about Toriyama's true vision, maaaan.

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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by Nickolaidas » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:01 pm

Zephyr wrote:Dragon Ball Z Movie 1 is canon the the Garlic Jr. arc.
I think that all DBZ movies which had Gohan's pet dragon are canon to the Garlic Jr arc.

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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:53 am

sintzu wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:DBS isn't 100% canon, Toriyama's script is canon but the Manga (made by Toyotaro) and anime (made by Toei) are two adaptations, so I don't know if we can consider DBS as canon.
Even his scripts can be questioned. Talking about the Trunks arc he said "I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office" so it wasn't completely his idea. Looking on how plain the current arc is, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also made on their request with even less involvment from him. We didn't even get a comment for it like the previous 2 arcs and movies.

During an interview after BOG he said Goku would just use his base and Ssj forms yet we got SsjB less than a year after so was that their idea as well ? it seems odd he'd say one thing then completely go against it a minute later. Freeza and Saiyans are very popular so were the alternate ones we got form U6 also their suggestion ?

As of now, the only new story that's close to 100% Toriyama is BOG, everything else has company/merchandise hands all over it.
Even BoG wasn't all Toriyama. I'm pretty sure they already had a script for it and Toriyama came in and made changes. For example he completely reworked Beerus' character.

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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by Meshack » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:19 am

dragon boss z wrote:
sintzu wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:DBS isn't 100% canon, Toriyama's script is canon but the Manga (made by Toyotaro) and anime (made by Toei) are two adaptations, so I don't know if we can consider DBS as canon.
Even his scripts can be questioned. Talking about the Trunks arc he said "I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office" so it wasn't completely his idea. Looking on how plain the current arc is, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also made on their request with even less involvment from him. We didn't even get a comment for it like the previous 2 arcs and movies.

During an interview after BOG he said Goku would just use his base and Ssj forms yet we got SsjB less than a year after so was that their idea as well ? it seems odd he'd say one thing then completely go against it a minute later. Freeza and Saiyans are very popular so were the alternate ones we got form U6 also their suggestion ?

As of now, the only new story that's close to 100% Toriyama is BOG, everything else has company/merchandise hands all over it.
Even BoG wasn't all Toriyama. I'm pretty sure they already had a script for it and Toriyama came in and made changes. For example he completely reworked Beerus' character.
Toriyama rewrote the entire script for Battle of Gods, changed Beerus's design, and other things. He even said he wrote the story as a continuation of the manga. CONFIRMATION IT'S CANON. He said the same or something sinilar for Resurrection F. Toriyama isn't doing much for Super but he is writing the plot outline and said in the press conference or whatever that it is a CONTINUATION OF THE MAJIN-BOO ARC. Toriyama doesn't have to do everything for it to be canon. Broly, Coora, Tapion, Toma, Boujack, Garlic Jr., and other movie villains and heroes, they're not canon. They were never mentioned in the manga: Freeza never said he had a brother in the manga, Toriyama only mentioned King Cold and Freeza as a family, no mother, sister, or brother. In Dragon Ball Minus, Gokuh has been in an incubator for 3 years, was not born the same day for the destruction for Planet Vegeta, so there's no way Broly and Gokuh could have been born on the same day for Gokuh to anger him for crying, and being stabbed the same day and protect his father from Freeza. Toriyama already said the movies (BEFORE BATTLE OF GODS) happened in an alternate dimension from the main story. That's it. They're not canon. He just did designs for the movies and changed some characters' names. Doesn't mean they're canon

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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:49 pm

The more I read about this stuff, the more my inner grammar nazi tells me there should be a FAQ on the front page of every fandom-related website specifying that "canon" is supposed to be the noun (i.e. the canon of Star Wars) and "canonical" the adjective ("the comic is not canonical"). You can make a difference, guys! Improve the world! Spread the knoweldge! Yay!

Regarding the movie characters: canonical, per se, doesn't mean much in this context. Indeed, a lot of the movie characters were designed by Toriyama, but, as others have already pointed out, the problem is not that these characters are not directly referenced, but that most the actual stories do not actually align with the narrative continuity of neither the anime nor the manga, apparently making each of the movie iterations a self-contained type of hypothetical scenario that simple borrows most of the character from a time-frame of Dragon Ball to narrate an alternative take on some events.

That's really all there is to say on the subject to keep it simple and neat. Some of the movies could technically fit in the anime, admittedly, and I think an user made a really cool thread in which he tried to see if some movies could fit with each other, and what kind of timeline could be created; but it's probably a relatively funny mental exercise more than anything else.

I have to admit, though: learning here that "Revenge of Cooler" was referenced as part of the anime continuity by some official material (whether by accident or design) does throw me a little off-balance since it's one of those movies that very egregiously couldn't happen in the anime continuity -- on paper, at least.

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Re: Broli and Coola are really canon?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:06 pm

Meshack wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Even his scripts can be questioned. Talking about the Trunks arc he said "I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office" so it wasn't completely his idea. Looking on how plain the current arc is, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also made on their request with even less involvment from him. We didn't even get a comment for it like the previous 2 arcs and movies.

During an interview after BOG he said Goku would just use his base and Ssj forms yet we got SsjB less than a year after so was that their idea as well ? it seems odd he'd say one thing then completely go against it a minute later. Freeza and Saiyans are very popular so were the alternate ones we got form U6 also their suggestion ?

As of now, the only new story that's close to 100% Toriyama is BOG, everything else has company/merchandise hands all over it.
Even BoG wasn't all Toriyama. I'm pretty sure they already had a script for it and Toriyama came in and made changes. For example he completely reworked Beerus' character.
Toriyama rewrote the entire script for Battle of Gods, changed Beerus's design, and other things. He even said he wrote the story as a continuation of the manga. CONFIRMATION IT'S CANON. He said the same or something sinilar for Resurrection F. Toriyama isn't doing much for Super but he is writing the plot outline and said in the press conference or whatever that it is a CONTINUATION OF THE MAJIN-BOO ARC. Toriyama doesn't have to do everything for it to be canon. Broly, Coora, Tapion, Toma, Boujack, Garlic Jr., and other movie villains and heroes, they're not canon. They were never mentioned in the manga: Freeza never said he had a brother in the manga, Toriyama only mentioned King Cold and Freeza as a family, no mother, sister, or brother. In Dragon Ball Minus, Gokuh has been in an incubator for 3 years, was not born the same day for the destruction for Planet Vegeta, so there's no way Broly and Gokuh could have been born on the same day for Gokuh to anger him for crying, and being stabbed the same day and protect his father from Freeza. Toriyama already said the movies (BEFORE BATTLE OF GODS) happened in an alternate dimension from the main story. That's it. They're not canon. He just did designs for the movies and changed some characters' names. Doesn't mean they're canon
Ummm I know that? What are you trying to get at? He said BoG was close to 100% Toriyama, I was just saying I wouldn't really go that far. Obviously BoG and RoF are the only "canon" movies. You should check what I'm saying before writing me an essay on something I already know, lol.

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