Dragon Ball Landmark

[Xyex]

Adamant: You include the opening episodes of DBZ as "Freeza arc"? Even though he doesn't show up or is even mentioned for about 40 episodes?

I don't know about Adamant but I do. Certain events through DB/Z trigger the start of Saga cullmanating in the Final Important Battle™ of that saga. The arrival of Raditz cullmanated in the battle against Frieza. And so, here are my list of Sagas as I see them:

DB
Pilaf Saga
Budokai Saga
RR Army Saga
Piccolo Saga
DBZ
Frieza Saga
Cell Saga
Buu Saga

[B-kun]

Adamant: You include the opening episodes of DBZ as "Freeza arc"? Even though he doesn't show up or is even mentioned for about 40 episodes?

I don't know about Adamant but I do. Certain events through DB/Z trigger the start of Saga cullmanating in the Final Important Battle™ of that saga. The arrival of Raditz cullmanated in the battle against Freeza. And so, here are my list of Sagas as I see them:

DB
Pilaf Saga
Budokai Saga
RR Army Saga
Piccolo Saga
DBZ
Freeza Saga
Cell Saga
Buu Saga

Well, thing is, they fought Nappa and Vegeta, who were working for their own gain, more or less. Not Freeza's, their own. Atleast, that's how I saw it.

.. I feel like a nagging parent for some reason. Shoot me.

[Xyex]

Yes, but had Raditz not come then Nappa and Vegeta wouldn't have come. Had they not come then Piccolo wouldn't have died and there would have been no trip to Namek and no battle against Frieza. It's all connected.

[Adamant]

Adamant: You include the opening episodes of DBZ as "Freeza arc"? Even though he doesn't show up or is even mentioned for about 40 episodes?

I don't know about Adamant but I do. Certain events through DB/Z trigger the start of Saga cullmanating in the Final Important Battle™ of that saga.

Yes.

As for GT, eh, I don't know. I don't really count it as a part of the story.

And those points where I ended my arcs are the points where everything is resolved (Yeah, Goku hadn't returned to Earth when the Freeza saga ended, but whatever. We knew he'd eventually return.)

The problem is, of course, when TOEI place a lot of filler between my arcs, making it hard to decide where they end.

[Nyogo]

SaiyaJedi, I want to know if it's got all the chapter pictures from the beginning of Dragon Ball through the end of the Frieza saga. I can't find #7 of the daizenshyu's, so I was wondering if I had any luck in finding the title page pictures in the Landmark book.

[PsyLiam]

I dunno. It may have all been connected, but the battle with Vegeta has Final Climactic Battle written all over it. The stuff may have led into the next saga, but the end of the Freeza saga led into the beginning of the next major story arc too. Not just that Goku hadn't returned to Earth, but the fact that mecha-Freeza turned up on Earth and was killed by Trunks. There was just as much bleeding between sagas as there was between the Saiyan and Freeza sagas (Where the only real connection is that everyone decides to go to Namek to get new Dragon Balls to bring everyone back to life).

And reducing the Vegeta battle to the same status as, say, the Piccolo/17 battle seems to be doing it a bit of a diservice. It was fairly epic.

[Super Sonic]

My take on the sagas are as follows:

Dragon Ball
Dragon Ball Quest
21st Tenkaichi Budokai
Red Ribbon Army
Baba
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
Great Demon King Piccolo
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

Dragon Ball Z
Saiyan
Frieza
Garlic Jr.
Androids/Cell
Afterlife Tournament
Saiyaman
Buu

The reason I didn't say Pilaf saga was because if you take into account the manga, where Pilaf is barely there. I've also italicized DBZ's anime only sagas as well.

[SaiyaJedi]

SaiyaJedi, I want to know if it's got all the chapter pictures from the beginning of Dragon Ball through the end of the Freeza saga. I can't find #7 of the daizenshyu's, so I was wondering if I had any luck in finding the title page pictures in the Landmark book.

The only real "new" artwork is on the cover. It's got a "gallery" of images from that time period (all of which previously appeared in Daizenshuu #1), as well as the first 10 "Other Artists" images, but the only title page images are color ones included in the "History of G o k o u" (yeah, that's the spelling they used ) section.

However, it contains a lot of information, and I can answer PsyLiam's question (at least up to the "Freeza" arc). From kanzenban volumes 1-22, Shueisha notes the following story arcs (with chapters annotated by me, since they only lay it out by volume):

1. "Search for the Dragon Balls" arc (chapters 1-23)
2. "Kame-Sen'nin's Training" arc (chapters 24-32)
3. "21st Tenka-ichi Budoukai" arc (chapters 32-54) (it kinda starts when the previous one ends)
4. "Red Ribbon Army" arc (chapters 55-96)
5. "Uranai Baba" arc (chapters 97-112)
6. "22nd Tenka-ichi Budoukai" arc (chapters 113-134)
7. "Piccolo Daimaou" arc (chapters 135-165)
8. "23rd Tenka-ichi Budoukai" arc (chapters 166-194)
9. "Saiyan" arc (chapters 195-241) (I judge it to end when Vegeta leaves)
10. "Freeza" arc (chapters 242-329)

The rest of these names will no doubt be given in "Dragon Ball FOREVER," which comes out at the end of this month. I'll probably update in this thread at that time.

[PsyLiam]

Interesting. The DBZ ones seem to be pretty close to the "standard" (if there is such a thing) idea of breaking down DBZ by "evil villian" period, which gives us for proper arcs, Garlic Jnr, and the Afterlife Tournament. The size of the arcs is certainly far bigger than the DB ones.

[Dayspring]

Baba has her own arc?!
I always figured she was part of the Red Ribbon Saga since the dbs from Baba's saga ended up being used on a wish desired in the RR saga.

Here's how I would divide them:

1. Bardock Special (Toriyama loved it enough to include Bardock in the manga so I include it to!)
2. "Search for the Dragon Balls" arc
3. "21st Tenka-ichi Budoukai" arc
4. "Red Ribbon Army" arc
5. "22nd Tenka-ichi Budoukai" arc
6. "Piccolo Daimaou" arc
7. "23rd Tenka-ichi Budoukai" arc
8. "Saiyan" arc
9. "Freeza" arc
10. "Cell" arc
11. "Boo" arc

DBGT:

1. "Search for the Black Star Dragon Balls" arc
2. "Baby" arc
3. "Super 17" arc
4. "Evil Dragons" arc
5. DBGT Special (if all DBGT is filler anyway, then something that takes place 100 yrs after DBGT is ok w/me)

[Jerseymilk]

Yes, but had Raditz not come then Nappa and Vegeta wouldn't have come. Had they not come then Piccolo wouldn't have died and there would have been no trip to Namek and no battle against Freeza. It's all connected.

And had Goku not come to Earth as a baby, we wouldn't have had the beginning of DB and everything else afterwards! Of course it's all going to be connected in some way. DB is about Goku's life. I just don't think using the "if Raditz hadn't come" argument really proves anything. And I agree with Liam that the Goku/Vegita battle was a very "big deal". At that point, Vegita was a serious threat to the future of the Earth. It shouldn't be downplayed.

[B-kun]

Yes, but had Raditz not come then Nappa and Vegeta wouldn't have come. Had they not come then Piccolo wouldn't have died and there would have been no trip to Namek and no battle against Freeza. It's all connected.

And had Goku not come to Earth as a baby, we wouldn't have had the beginning of DB and everything else afterwards! Of course it's all going to be connected in some way. DB is about Goku's life. I just don't think using the "if Raditz hadn't come" argument really proves anything. And I agree with Liam that the Goku/Vegita battle was a very "big deal". At that point, Vegita was a serious threat to the future of the Earth. It shouldn't be downplayed.

Besides, that battle also showed the purpose of showing Goku's new kickass powers and how helpful Gohan is. Those are very important to the series later. (And a lot of movies. How many villains did Goku kill with help of the Genki Dama?)

By the way, you're online, Jersey-sama? o.o Get on AIM!

[Xyex]

I dunno. It may have all been connected, but the battle with Vegeta has Final Climactic Battle written all over it. The stuff may have led into the next saga, but the end of the Freeza saga led into the beginning of the next major story arc too. Not just that Goku hadn't returned to Earth, but the fact that mecha-Freeza turned up on Earth and was killed by Trunks. There was just as much bleeding between sagas as there was between the Saiyan and Freeza sagas (Where the only real connection is that everyone decides to go to Namek to get new Dragon Balls to bring everyone back to life).

And reducing the Vegeta battle to the same status as, say, the Piccolo/17 battle seems to be doing it a bit of a diservice. It was fairly epic.

Yes, epic, but that's not the point. After the Goku/Vegeta battle you couldn't end the series, there's matters not yet resolved. The Final Important Battle™ is also a point at wich the series could be stopped with no unresolved issues.

And I disagree about the bleed in from Frieza to Trunks arrival. As far as anyone knew at the time Frieza was dead, gone, history, no more, finito, you get the picture. So that was it, after the necassary loose end cleaning (that being the wishes on Parunga to revive everyone) and the obligitory 'More adventures may come but were through' ending (that being Goku still off in space training and Vegeta trying to find him) the saga ends and the series could have as well.

That can't be said for the post Vegeta period however. There was still the matter of reviving everyone killed by Nappa (and Yamcha too, the idiot).

[Jerseymilk]

The ending of the Freeza saga seemed more "final" because Toriyama actually intended it to end there and then was pressured into continuing.
That's the only reason.

[James R. Cadwell]

And I disagree about the bleed in from Freeza to Trunks arrival. As far as anyone knew at the time Freeza was dead, gone, history, no more, finito, you get the picture. So that was it, after the necassary loose end cleaning (that being the wishes on Parunga to revive everyone) and the obligitory 'More adventures may come but were through' ending (that being Goku still off in space training and Vegeta trying to find him) the saga ends and the series could have as well.

IIRC, had Toriyama ended DB at the Freeza Saga, he would have left Goku dead after being caught on Namek when it exploded. So unless he planned additional chapters sufficiently resolving the storylines of all the evil (or at least lacking in a firm sense of morality) characters remaining on Earth, it's easy to picture Vegeta or Piccolo causing problems.

IMO, the Cell Saga would have been the best place to end the series. All of the main players had their "character development arcs" essentially completed. Trunks defeated the "artificial humans" of his universe, Vegeta redeemed himself to a certain extent, Piccolo merged with Kami, and Gohan took his father's place as protector of the Earth. Goku was also happily off in the afterlife, not by circumstance, but by choice.

[Zackarotto]

I agree with VegEX on the sagas... And yes, Baba counts as 22nd Budokai in my eyes because the RR saga is long enough already...

[PsyLiam]

IIRC, had Toriyama ended DB at the Freeza Saga, he would have left Goku dead after being caught on Namek when it exploded. So unless he planned additional chapters sufficiently resolving the storylines of all the evil (or at least lacking in a firm sense of morality) characters remaining on Earth, it's easy to picture Vegeta or Piccolo causing problems.

I suspect that Vegeta would have stayed dead (possibly by having the wish changed to reviving only the good people killed by Freeza), and that Piccolo's near-fatal-death-beam-through-chest would have been promoted to fatal-death-beam-through-chest.

[B-kun]

IIRC, had Toriyama ended DB at the Freeza Saga, he would have left Goku dead after being caught on Namek when it exploded. So unless he planned additional chapters sufficiently resolving the storylines of all the evil (or at least lacking in a firm sense of morality) characters remaining on Earth, it's easy to picture Vegeta or Piccolo causing problems.

I suspect that Vegeta would have stayed dead (possibly by having the wish changed to reviving only the good people killed by Freeza), and that Piccolo's near-fatal-death-beam-through-chest would have been promoted to fatal-death-beam-through-chest.

Wouldn't that be a demotion, though? I mean, in the victim's eyes.

[PsyLiam]

But promotion in terms of "OMG WTF has Freeza done to Piccolo OMG!!??!?!!"