What's the SS4 multiplier?

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:24 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:I dunno, I'd just say 10x stronger than his Super Saiyan form because of the whole "10X Kamehameha" thing.

I mean, it works too. 10x stronger than SS is more powerful than SS3 (which is 8x more powerful than SS). Which makes for 500x stronger than his normal state, yes. And SS4 potentially being the Golden Great Ape transformation under control, and the latter being potentially 50x stronger than just regular Great Ape, which is 10x stronger than the normal state, which makes Golden Great Ape 500x stronger than the normal state? Works too. But that's all meaningless headcanon on my account.

There's nothing official, unfortunately.
Its got to be much higher, things like Golden Oozaru Goku pwning Super Baby Vegeta just after transforming as well as Pan(in the sub) stating that Goku's power continued to rise afterwards supports a multiplier well above 500x. If anything, Super Baby Vegeta was 500x Goku's base thus Golden Oozaru being at least 600x upon transforming and being anywhere between 600x to 5000x(if Oozaru Baby Vegeta is 10x stronger) prior to condensing into SSJ4.
The GT Perfect Files describes both SSJ4 & Baby's Golden Oozaru as being evolutions over ordinary terms, its possible that all of the numbers could still be even higher if this isn't just hyperbole.
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by p-hyvo » Sat May 05, 2018 2:12 pm

according to the data we have from gt perfect files, ssj4 could be in a range between x1300 and x1600 (assuming ssj is x2)
meanwhile, in z, we can find the hipotetical ssj4 usung super vegettto, because as a guide states super vegetto is strong (or evevn stonger) than a ssj4 , and cosidering that super baby 1 > super vegetto, the comparison must not be between z vegettto and gt ssj4, but between z super vegetto anz z ipotetical ssj4 or baby saga ipotetical super vegetto and ssj4 baby saga Goku (just to comprehend even more potara's power, lol) so, talking abount a ssj4 in z, it depends on how much boost you guys thinks potaras gives to base Goku (bare minimum 500x) and then multiply it x50 (so, bare minimum x25'000, that makes z ssj4 multiplier around x24'000 [please do not forget that this is the highest lowball you can make, in reality is much much powerful])

hope i've been useful to you
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by Rakurai » Sat May 05, 2018 5:51 pm

Oh gosh, why do people still try to slap multipliers onto transformations nowadays? They obviously don't work. Even the ones from the Super Exciting Guide make no sense whatsoever anymore. Unless they bring back scouters and tell us specific numbers then there's no point in trying to say SSJ4 is anywhere between x10-98742352435 because that's not what the intention of the transformation in-narrative is. It's simply a power boost.

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by Analytic » Sat May 05, 2018 7:37 pm

No multiplier. It’s stated in guidebooks and the series itself that it brings the user to their utmost limits.

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat May 05, 2018 11:50 pm

I go with

Golden oozaru inital= 500x

Golden Oozaru max= 4000x

Ssj4 initial =20,000×

50x or 500x ssj3 work well.

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by PFM18 » Sun May 06, 2018 3:22 pm

"the utmost limits" was also used to describe SSJ4. I think they just mean that they go to "their limit" in the sense that they are in the highest SSJ form and that highest level is their limit by definition becsuse they cannot go to a higher form. So it would still make sense for a multiplier to exist.

That said, Goku evenly matches Oozaru Baby aftee the transformation when he was weker than the original Baby Vegeta. Since I think it is fair to say that Super Baby 2 -> Oozaru Baby yields a 10x increase. So the SSJ4 increase is 10 * X where x is whatever you think the difference is between SSJ3 Goku and Super Baby Vegeta 2. For example, if you think Super Baby Vegeta 2 is 4x as strong as SSJ3 Goku that would make SSJ4 a 10 * 4 multiplier.(or 40*400=16,000x stronger than base)

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by DBZ Macky » Sun May 06, 2018 4:39 pm

Can the 4,000x multiplier even work?
Baby Vegeta was already stronger than SS3 Goku in his base form, and then he got more than 10x stronger as a Great Ape, yet SSJ4 Goku was still able to defeat him.
That definitely implies that the multiplier is at least a bit more than 4,000x.
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun May 06, 2018 4:49 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:Can the 4,000x multiplier even work?
Baby Vegeta was already stronger than SS3 Goku in his base form, and then he got more than 10x stronger as a Great Ape, yet SSJ4 Goku was still able to defeat him.
That definitely implies that the multiplier is at least a bit more than 4,000x.
I have seen the idea thrown around that Baby Vegeta's boosts in power were additive, rather than multiplicative, from other fan communities; basically Baby's power added on top of Vegeta's base, SS, and in this case Great Ape forms.

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun May 06, 2018 5:55 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: I have seen the idea thrown around that Baby Vegeta's boosts in power were additive, rather than multiplicative, from other fan communities; basically Baby's power added on top of Vegeta's base, SS, and in this case Great Ape forms.
That might be true, but still Vegeta's body got 10 times stronger (at least) and while Adult Baby was stated by Trunks to be stronger than everything else in universe (except SSJ4 and Majuub that weren't a thing yet), he grew up when Vegeta transformed into ape. That's why he couldn't stand in his body after losing a tail. Before that, he was still teen.

So while Vegeta's body alone got 10 times stronger, Baby himself also got stronger.
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by Locutus » Mon May 07, 2018 12:52 am

Super Baby 2 dominated ssj3 until Goku went Golden Oozaru, who didn't really fight Baby but Baby did avoid him.

Once Goku turned SSJ4 he dominated Baby. Baby then became a Golden Oozaru himself but was only roughly around ssj4 Gokus power. GT perfect files does state Golden Baby is stronger, but from the fight it's not that much.

Golden Oozaru is either 500 to 4000x base for Goku, but for Baby considering he transformed on top of his 2nd form it should be 500 to 4000x stronger than his 2nd form. Even if it were his base, base Baby also defeated ssj3 Goku easily and Baby states in their rematch Goku didn't grow stronger at all despite the tail pulled from him.


This means that ssj4 Goku is 500 to 4000x stronger than his Golden Oozaru form, which is 500 to 4000x stronger than base.

So 250,000 to 16 million x base for ssj4. These numbers are probably high to a lot of people, but that's really the mininum one can get since if Ssj4 Goku remained as strong as his Golden Oozaru form, GO Baby would have destroyed Goku.

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon May 07, 2018 1:07 am

Baby's transformations are likely mutations of the SSJ forms. His strongest form 2 is stated to resemble Super Saiyan 3. So I see no reason not to use the SSJ multipliers for Baby's transformations.

Base Goku(Baby Arc): 350,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 17,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 35,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 140,000,000,000,000

SSJ Baby Vegeta is stated to be even with SSJ3 Goku so:

Baby Vegeta: 140,000,000,000,000
Baby Vegeta(Strongest Form 1): 280,000,000,000,000
Baby Vegeta(Strongest Form 2): 1,120,000,000,000,000

I have Golden Great Ape as 10x SSJ3 so:

Golden Great Ape Goku: 1,400,000,000,000,000

Goku was stronger than Baby after turning into a Golden Great Ape, but was ineffective at using it to defeat Baby since he lost his rationality.

Super Saiyan 4 Goku(Suppressed): 1,800,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 4 Goku: 10,500,000,000,000,000

And Elder Kai said that SSJ4 Goku was stronger than Baby even though he wasn't even using a smidgen of his power. I have suppressed SSJ4 Goku using about 17% of his full power yet he's still far stronger than Baby. Basically the point here is that Goku is stronger than Baby while using a small fraction of power. I doubt the writers had any specific percentage in mind.

Golden Great Ape is 10x stronger than Baby Vegeta(Strongest Form 2) so:

Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta: 11,200,000,000,000,000

Great Ape Baby is stronger than SSJ4 Goku but the two can still have an even match and double KO especially with Goku's speed advantage taken into account.

So SSJ4 ends up being 30,000x base for me.

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 09, 2018 4:20 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Baby's transformations are likely mutations of the SSJ forms. His strongest form 2 is stated to resemble Super Saiyan 3. So I see no reason not to use the SSJ multipliers for Baby's transformations.

Base Goku(Baby Arc): 350,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 17,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 35,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 140,000,000,000,000

SSJ Baby Vegeta is stated to be even with SSJ3 Goku so:

Baby Vegeta: 140,000,000,000,000
Baby Vegeta(Strongest Form 1): 280,000,000,000,000
Baby Vegeta(Strongest Form 2): 1,120,000,000,000,000

I have Golden Great Ape as 10x SSJ3 so:

Golden Great Ape Goku: 1,400,000,000,000,000

Goku was stronger than Baby after turning into a Golden Great Ape, but was ineffective at using it to defeat Baby since he lost his rationality.

Super Saiyan 4 Goku(Suppressed): 1,800,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 4 Goku: 10,500,000,000,000,000

And Elder Kai said that SSJ4 Goku was stronger than Baby even though he wasn't even using a smidgen of his power. I have suppressed SSJ4 Goku using about 17% of his full power yet he's still far stronger than Baby. Basically the point here is that Goku is stronger than Baby while using a small fraction of power. I doubt the writers had any specific percentage in mind.

Golden Great Ape is 10x stronger than Baby Vegeta(Strongest Form 2) so:

Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta: 11,200,000,000,000,000

Great Ape Baby is stronger than SSJ4 Goku but the two can still have an even match and double KO especially with Goku's speed advantage taken into account.

So SSJ4 ends up being 30,000x base for me.

nice theory, but contains a bitof errors :
1) you calculated gt with z multipliers, huge error. gt has his own multipliers (ssj = x2 and the Others follows as you know)
2)baby vegeta > Goku ssj3, so they cant be both 140'000'000'000'000
the other part is fine, gg
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed May 09, 2018 8:30 pm

p-hyvo wrote: gt has his own multipliers (ssj = x2 and the Others follows as you know)
Never heard about it. Any source for that?
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by p-hyvo » Fri May 11, 2018 6:55 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
p-hyvo wrote: gt has his own multipliers (ssj = x2 and the Others follows as you know)
Never heard about it. Any source for that?
The same anime
Rildo implies it. moreover , GT scaling cant be made using se ssj = x50 because the series contains some statements that makes impossibile to use x50 multiplier forma ssj in gt
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri May 11, 2018 7:05 am

p-hyvo wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:
p-hyvo wrote: gt has his own multipliers (ssj = x2 and the Others follows as you know)
Never heard about it. Any source for that?
The same anime
Rildo implies it. moreover , GT scaling cant be made using se ssj = x50 because the series contains some statements that makes impossibile to use x50 multiplier forma ssj in gt
Rildo only said that Goku wasn't even using half if his power before he went SSJ. It doesn't mean SSJ is x2.
And Goku still has SSJ2 and SSJ3 so it wasn't his full power either.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri May 11, 2018 9:22 am

Hmm, well if we can derive Golden Oozaru to be:

50 (SSJ) x 10 (Oozaru) = 500x.
Then, if SSJ4=10x Golden Oozaru:

SSJ4=500 x 10 = 5000x base.

I think that this is reasonable. In the GT Perfect Files, SSJ4 Gogeta is supposedly only 10x SSJ4 Goku. At the same time, SSJ4 may just be a controlled version of the full power of the Golden Oozaru in a humanoid form, so maybe the multiplier is not 10x Golden Oozaru, but rather 2x. Regardless, it is insignificant to the multiplier for SSG.
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 11, 2018 11:14 am

shadowfox87 wrote:In the GT Perfect Files, SSJ4 Gogeta is supposedly only 10x SSJ4 Goku.
No, it was only said that Gogeta is dozens of times stronger, nothing new here. Vegetto is also dozens of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta, Merged Zamasu is also dozens of times stronger than Goku Black and Zamasu... Since we don't know the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan Second Grade and Super Saiyan Third Grade, they're both dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan. It is a vague term.

And certainly Gogeta wouldn't be just ten times stronger than his fusees, otherwise Gotenks, Vegetto and Merged Zamasu would perish and there would be no point in fusion at all in this franchise.
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri May 11, 2018 12:56 pm

Grimlock wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:In the GT Perfect Files, SSJ4 Gogeta is supposedly only 10x SSJ4 Goku.
No, it was only said that Gogeta is dozens of times stronger, nothing new here. Vegetto is also dozens of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta, Merged Zamasu is also dozens of times stronger than Goku Black and Zamasu... Since we don't know the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan Second Grade and Super Saiyan Third Grade, they're both dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan. It is a vague term.

And certainly Gogeta wouldn't be just ten times stronger than his fusees, otherwise Gotenks, Vegetto and Merged Zamasu would perish and there would be no point in fusion at all in this franchise.
Fusion Dance and Potarra would have different multipliers. It would make sense that Potarra has a much greater multiplier than Fusion Dance.

Image
The above is from GT Perfect Files Volume 2. The green box above translates to:
“This is the fusion of Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta. The strongest warrior in the entire Universe, and probably in every dimension!! It's Fusion of unprecedented power that lasts 30 minutes, however, it's only weakness is that lasts 10 minutes due to the Super Saiyan 4 state. His power is perhaps many tens of times stronger than a single Super Saiyan 4.”

Image
Again, in GT Perfect Files Volume 2, saying tens of times. Vados also said "tens" of times in the DBS anime.

However, I know where the "dozens" of times is coming from. The same above pic was also leaked with this translation:

"Y un guerrero sin igual, nacido de la fusión de Goku y Vegeta! El tiene el pelo rojo y un carácter un poco infantil. Puede derrotar Ishinron sólo con un dedo. Su fuerza es decenas de veces más potente que el de una Super Saiyan 4 normal. Puede lanzar un tiro extraordinario, que es una mezcla entre el ataque Big Bang y la ola Kamehameha!"

"A warrior with no equal, born from the fusion of Goku and Vegeta! He has red hair and a character a bit childish. He can defeat Omega Shenlong only with one finger. His strength is dozens of times more powerful than a normal Super Saiyan 4. He can shoot an extraordinary shot, which is a mix of the Big Bang attack and the Kamehameha wave!"

Herms98 also confirmed that it is "tens" of times himself on kanzenshuu before:
viewtopic.php?t=15533&start=740#p692241
viewtopic.php?t=26519#p764551

SSJ Grade II would not have a multiplier greater than 2x since that would be exceeding SSJ2. However, Grade III can indeed exceed SSJ2's multiplier in terms of power but would also be inversely proportional to the speed. I did actually calculate the multipliers before and "tens" which mathematically can mean 10-90, would not be sufficient for Potarra to allow Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku. Even without any power levels, one can easily determine that. Depending on the fusees and their physical similarities as well as power levels, I believe that this multiplier can change. That's why we have Thin and Fat Gogeta.
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 11, 2018 2:01 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Fusion Dance and Potarra would have different multipliers. It would make sense that Potarra has a much greater multiplier than Fusion Dance.
We don't know that. It's one's power multiplied by the other's power, if it worked anything differently, we would and should know it by now. But there's nothing claiming that the multipliers are different.
shadowfox87 wrote:However, I know where the "dozens" of times is coming from. The same above pic was also leaked with this translation:

"A warrior with no equal, born from the fusion of Goku and Vegeta! He has red hair and a character a bit childish. He can defeat Omega Shenlong only with one finger. His strength is dozens of times more powerful than a normal Super Saiyan 4. He can shoot an extraordinary shot, which is a mix of the Big Bang attack and the Kamehameha wave!"

Herms98 also confirmed that it is "tens" of times himself on kanzenshuu before:
viewtopic.php?t=15533&start=740#p692241
viewtopic.php?t=26519#p764551
I don't know in English, but where I live "tens" and "dozens" when translated are synonyms. So I don't know what's your point here, they're both vague terms that don't mean a specific "10x" at all.
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Re: What's the SS4 multiplier?

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat May 12, 2018 1:56 am

Grimlock wrote:We don't know that. It's one's power multiplied by the other's power, if it worked anything differently, we would and should know it by now. But there's nothing claiming that the multipliers are different.
AxB was already considered illogical more than 9 years ago when those multipliers were first released in the Super Exciting Guide. It was interpreted that it may not literally mean multiplication. Rather, it would be (A+B) x C where C is unknown. C determines how strong the fusion is and that is dependent on many factors such as physical characteristics, type of fusion, etc.
Grimlock wrote: I don't know in English, but where I live "tens" and "dozens" when translated are synonyms. So I don't know what's your point here, they're both vague terms that don't mean a specific "10x" at all.
Tens and dozens are definitely not synonyms literally as they are defined differently mathematically. Tens are multiples of 10s while dozens are multiples of 12s. Tens would include 10-90 as reaching 100 would count as hundreds. The point here is that it is a range and that multiplier depends on the fusees. For Fusion dance, it is important for the fusees to match power levels and perform the fusion dance correctly. For Potarra, no need to match power levels or dance, the optimal fusion given two fusees is always the result.
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