Requirement to turn SSJ?

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Sun_Wukong
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Requirement to turn SSJ?

Post by Sun_Wukong » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:21 pm

This has always bothered the heck out of me. These seem like pretty sensable motivations

Goku - former rival knocked out cold, best friend is blown up in front of his eyes

Vegeta- gave up the one thing he cared about, his will to live

(Future) Trunks- best friend is brutaly beaten to death

Gohan- (anime at least), pushed to his limit while training with his father

Now these ones have never made sense

(Chibi) Trunks - seems to come naturally

Goten - not really sure

Goku Jr - A 5th generation Saiyan? Come on..

Anyone care to explain what happened here?

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Post by Tyro » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:30 pm

It would seem that for one to simply become SSj, a high-ish base power level is needed and an extreme rush of anger. Such as Goku on Namek. Had a high base power (however if I mention the number three million (or 3,000,000 to those of you who enjoy the greatness of zeros), it would bring back debates that would go no where), and the anger needed to "awaken" the SSj transformation; his best friend dying by the hand of his new enemy.

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Re: Requirement to turn SSJ?

Post by Rocketman » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:37 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:(Chibi) Trunks - seems to come naturally

Goten - not really sure
Deus ex Machina
Goku Jr - A 5th generation Saiyan? Come on..
It's Toei. :P

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Post by Saiyan » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:42 pm

Well, technically, Future Trunks was able to turn SSj before Gohan died, so we can assume that he can turn SSj naturally, just like Chibi Trunks.

And Vegeta could have turned SSj any time between the three years between Future Trunks' appearance and the Androids' appearance. We can assume that it could have been at least a year before the Androids' appearance, since it seemed like it takes time to be able to become SSj at will (I'm saying a year because that was the time in between the end of the Freeza arc and Trunks' appearance). We can also assume that because Chibi Trunks can turn SSj naturally, Vegeta was able to turn SSj before Bulma was pregnant with Trunks.

Goku, also being SSj when Chi-Chi was pregnant with Goten, also could have passed on the SSJ "gene" down to Goten, allowing Goten to turn SSj naturally.

Goku Jr is GT...yeah...*cough*FILLEDWITHPLOTHOLES*cough* :roll:

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Re: Requirement to turn SSJ?

Post by MajinVejitaXV » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:52 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:Vegeta- gave up the one thing he cared about, his will to live
Isn't that the dub's (flawed) explanation? I believe the original states that the rage he felt towards himself for being unable to overcome Goku, despite pushing himself that much harder than Goku and being of nobility, was the catalyst ("I'll--I'll never surpass Kakarotto like this!").

-Corey

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Post by tarsonis » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:55 pm

Goten, Chibi Trunks, and Goku Jr. probably had some event in their lives that made them go SSJ for the first time, but it was easier for them since they had the gene passed to them first. I know it's a fan-made theory, but it works.

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Re: Requirement to turn SSJ?

Post by veshira » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:59 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Sun_Wukong wrote:Vegeta- gave up the one thing he cared about, his will to live
Isn't that the dub's (flawed) explanation? I believe the original states that the rage he felt towards himself for being unable to overcome Goku, despite pushing himself that much harder than Goku and being of nobility, was the catalyst ("I'll--I'll never surpass Kakarotto like this!").

-Corey
So, the Funimation dub (and I'm assuming the Ocean dub, or whichever one it'd be during the Androids saga for the rest of the English speaking world) was actually darker than the original? Ooh. That's scary. :shock: :? Actually, it brings me back to Vegeta's death on Namek. :roll: Not that, that wasn't sad, but it was melodramatic...

Back on topic, it'd debatable that a Saiya-nin (Saiya-nin-jin?) hybrid can become a Super Saiyajin with less effort than a full blooded Saiyajin. This has pros and cons, one proven con being that hybrids cannot go SSJ4, but that's GT, so you may or may not even take that into consideration. :lol:
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Post by Panda » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:39 pm

Wouldn't it be cool if Goku was an SSJ while Goten was being conceived? :D

Nevermind...

I've always gone by the theory that Goten and Trunks are weaker than most SSJ because they were able to access that power easily (As in, the required power-level to become SSJ was lower for them). Goku Jr. on the other hand... well, let's just ignore that.
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Post by Taku128 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:50 pm

Panda wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if Goku was an SSJ while Goten was being conceived? :D
Or if Gogeta or Vegetto had a kid! :D

Anyways, I think they just have bad tempers and probably went SSJ over something stupid.

Trunks: Mom, can I have a car?
Bulma: No.
Trunks: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *Goes SSJ*
Last edited by Taku128 on Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by veshira » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:15 pm

Taku128 wrote:
Panda wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if Goku was an SSJ while Goten was being conceived? :D
Or if Gogeta of Vegetto had a kid! :D
Y-you guys are evil! Go to Filler Hell or something. :twisted: (Beh, what am I talking about. A couple years back, I used to read worse. Actually, in comparison, there's nothing wrong with what you two stated, but why should I be proud of that?)

(I was twelve.)

(With INTERNET ACCESS!)

(Oooh the. Power. Fear. :( )
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Post by Tanooki Kuribo » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:29 pm

Goku Jr - A 5th generation Saiyan? Come on..
I always thought it would make more sence if Grandma Pan dies wich pushes Goku Jr. to go Super Saiyan.

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Re: Requirement to turn SSJ?

Post by Deus ex Machina » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:39 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Sun_Wukong wrote:(Chibi) Trunks - seems to come naturally

Goten - not really sure
Deus ex Machina
You called? :P

Anyways, I still subscribe to the idea that Trunks and Goten are special cases because they were both half breeds, and both conceived by Super Saiyan parents.

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Post by Panda » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:29 pm

Well, I gave my opinion on the Goten and Trunks case. It stand in my book :)


With Goku Jr.... well...

Why did he become a SSJ in the first place anyway? I never actually saw that special... as he fighting a monster or something? Well, besides that, maybe added stress can increase abrupt power levels in young Saiya-jin bred children. He lived with his (old as hell) Grandmother because his parents died (and since he's very concious of this it's safe to assume he knew them until at least age 5-6) and he has no other living relatives. My theory is that that kind of stress could have briefly pushed him into an SSJ state.

Perhaps later he did manage to control that ability (as seen at the tournament thing... it couldn't have been more than 2 years after the initial incident) and decide to take on the responsibility of protecting his planet.



/end Panda's rant.
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Post by D.G. » Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:03 pm

I have to agree about Goten and Trunks' initial transformations. The only thing different about them from Gohan is their fathers' ability to transform at conception, so it's the only answer.

As for Goku Jr..... I've never seen the movie, so I can't really talk about it with any authority. I always had an idea, though, that by some trick of genetics he had more Saiya-Jin blood than a 5th generation ought to. He looked exactly like Goku, so he recieved a lot of genes from the Saiya-Jin side. I think it's unlikely that he could transform if he had only 1/16 Saiya-Jin blood. Same with Vegeta Jr.
This has pros and cons, one proven con being that hybrids cannot go SSJ4, but that's GT, so you may or may not even take that into consideration.
Why don't you think hybrids can turn SSJ4/Golden Oozaru? I never thought about it, but I don't see what would prevent them. Or Gohan, at least, since he was born with a tail.

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Post by Rocketman » Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:55 pm

D.G. wrote:Why don't you think hybrids can turn SSJ4/Golden Oozaru? I never thought about it, but I don't see what would prevent them. Or Gohan, at least, since he was born with a tail.
Here's the evidence:
Me in another thread wrote: 1. Goku gets a tail, goes Golden Oozaru. When he gains control, he transforms into an SSj4.
2. Baby-Vegeta becomes a Golden Oozaru, gains control, and.... does not go SSj4.
3. Later, when Bulma is creating the ray during the Omega Shenron fight, she wonders about this. Vegeta says Baby had corrupted his blood so he wasn't a full-blooded Saiyan.
4. Full-blood Vegeta turns Golden Oozaru, gains controls, and turns SSj4.

Therefore, only full-blooded Saiyans can go Super Saiyan 4.

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Post by D.G. » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:31 am

That's a corruption, though, not a mixed breed. Bebi was an invading force inside Vegeta's body. It's an interesting idea, and very plausible. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think it's definitive either. Not to mention we're talking GT. It's so full of holes, trying to satisfactorily explain everything is impossible. Damn Toei.

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Post by desirecampbell » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:18 am

D.G. wrote:I have to agree about Goten and Trunks' initial transformations. The only thing different about them from Gohan is their fathers' ability to transform at conception, so it's the only answer.
No, Goku was also much stronger. We can assume that becoming a Super Saiyan (while still requiring an emotional outburst) gets easier as you get stronger.

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Re: Requirement to turn SSJ?

Post by Sun_Wukong » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:02 am

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Sun_Wukong wrote:Vegeta- gave up the one thing he cared about, his will to live
Isn't that the dub's (flawed) explanation? I believe the original states that the rage he felt towards himself for being unable to overcome Goku, despite pushing himself that much harder than Goku and being of nobility, was the catalyst ("I'll--I'll never surpass Kakarotto like this!").

-Corey
Mmm yeah, actually I may have remembered it wrong. The dub makes Vegeta to seem like he stops caring about pushing to be better than Goku, and that he didnt care wether he lived or died.

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Re: Requirement to turn SSJ?

Post by MajinVejitaXV » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:42 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:Mmm yeah, actually I may have remembered it wrong. The dub makes Vegeta to seem like he stops caring about pushing to be better than Goku, and that he didnt care wether he lived or died.
Yeah, I just double checked the episode. It's...pretty damn stupid.

"I didn't care about being better than Kakarot, I didn't care about being a Super Saiyan, I didn't care if I lived! I didn't care about anything!"

...yeah. Best explanation ever. Apathy = shitload of power. It doesn't have a dark tinge, it just sounds...dumb.

-Corey

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Post by veshira » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:17 pm

D.G. wrote:I always had an idea, though, that by some trick of genetics he had more Saiya-Jin blood than a 5th generation ought to. He looked exactly like Goku, so he recieved a lot of genes from the Saiya-Jin side. I think it's unlikely that he could transform if he had only 1/16 Saiya-Jin blood. Same with Vegeta Jr.
Using real world knowledge and logic, when a baby is born, the baby will always have an even amount of data ("genes"/"DNA") from both sides. Whether or not the traits of these genes take on physical form on the baby has to do with if the genes are dominant or recessive, what the trait is, if the gene is shared by both parents, how much data both parents have on it based on the number of generations it's gone through and how it's changed and... it's really complicated. And it can change during puberty, spurs and other significant times of change in an adult's life. (Pregnancy, middle age, old age, ect.)

So basically, what traits take form and affect how an individual lives are determined by a roll of a die. (Well, 23 dice? Let's assume Saiyajin have 23, since I find it very unlikely that two species with different numbers of chromosomes could be even remotely compatible.) However, an offspring will always have half his DNA coming from his mother, and the other half coming from his father. Always.
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