Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:21 pm

Ultra Instinct raising power was never stated. Why would it? It is a technique only.
Whis even stated that the Genki Dama was the reason why the power gap was closed between Goku and Jiren.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:08 pm

Miracles wrote:Ultra Instinct raising power was never stated. Why would it? It is a technique only.
Whis even stated that the Genki Dama was the reason why the power gap was closed between Goku and Jiren.
No, Whis said that the Genki Dama restored Goku's stamina & didn't make him stronger. Goku wasn't just using Ultra Instict, the white eyes & intense heat are not traits of Ultra Instict. If they were, the gods would have recognized it from the first second & wouldn't have doubts about it.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:45 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Miracles wrote:Ultra Instinct raising power was never stated. Why would it? It is a technique only.
Whis even stated that the Genki Dama was the reason why the power gap was closed between Goku and Jiren.
No, Whis said that the Genki Dama restored Goku's stamina & didn't make him stronger. Goku wasn't just using Ultra Instict, the white eyes & intense heat are not traits of Ultra Instict. If they were, the gods would have recognized it from the first second & wouldn't have doubts about it.
I know Whis stated that the "heat" coming from Goku is different from Ultra Instinct.
Ultra instict Goku achieved by trying to resist the Genki dama but failed.
Whis states about the Genki dama: "The energy of the Spirit Bomb must be acting...as a temporary source of power for his depleted body."
Even Tenshinhan stated the Spirit Bomb boosted Goku's power.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:00 pm

Miracles wrote:I know Whis stated that the "heat" coming from Goku is different from Ultra Instinct.
Ultra instict Goku achieved by trying to resist the Genki dama but failed.
Whis states about the Genki dama: "The energy of the Spirit Bomb must be acting...as a temporary source of power for his depleted body."
Even Tenshinhan stated the Spirit Bomb boosted Goku's power.
Tenshinhan says that it doesn't make sense for Goku to be as strong as Jiren with the power of the Genki Dama, and Whis explains that the Genki Dama temporarily restored Goku's power. This means that the Genki Dama didn't make him stronger than he was (SSBKKx20 is his full power), it merely restored him temporarily to full power. However, we see that Goku is even stronger than he was before, since he doesn't only dodge Jiren's attacks thanks to Ultra Instict, his punches can evenly clash with Jiren's, and his ki blasts can push Jiren away. These things have absolutely nothing to do with Ultra Instict.

Goku appears to have reached a new Saiyan form stronger than Super Saiyan Blue that grants him the ability to use Ultra Instict, even though Ultra Instict can be learned by anyone that is skilled enough. Just like Goku reached Super Saiyan God, a new Saiyan form stronger than Super Saiyan 3 that grants him godly ki, even though godly ki can be obtained by anyone through becoming a god (Kami or Hakaishin).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:09 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Miracles wrote:I know Whis stated that the "heat" coming from Goku is different from Ultra Instinct.
Ultra instict Goku achieved by trying to resist the Genki dama but failed.
Whis states about the Genki dama: "The energy of the Spirit Bomb must be acting...as a temporary source of power for his depleted body."
Even Tenshinhan stated the Spirit Bomb boosted Goku's power.
Tenshinhan says that it doesn't make sense for Goku to be as strong as Jiren with the power of the Genki Dama, and Whis explains that the Genki Dama temporarily restored Goku's power. This means that the Genki Dama didn't make him stronger than he was (SSBKKx20 is his full power), it merely restored him temporarily to full power. However, we see that Goku is even stronger than he was before, since he doesn't only dodge Jiren's attacks thanks to Ultra Instict, his punches can evenly clash with Jiren's, and his ki blasts can push Jiren away. These things have absolutely nothing to do with Ultra Instict.

Goku appears to have reached a new Saiyan form stronger than Super Saiyan Blue that grants him the ability to use Ultra Instict, even though Ultra Instict can be learned by anyone that is skilled enough. Just like Goku reached Super Saiyan God, a new Saiyan form stronger than Super Saiyan 3 that grants him godly ki, even though godly ki can be obtained by anyone through becoming a god (Kami or Hakaishin).
I'm not denying the new "Heat" form. However it wasn't explained how he got it.
What is explained is Ultra Instinct was achieved by trying to resist the spirit bomb.
And the spirit bomb was the temporary power source to keep him in his new "Heat" form for a while.
Whis specifically stated he didn't know how the new form came about apart from Ultra Instinct.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:15 pm

Miracles wrote:I'm not denying the new "Heat" form. However it wasn't explained how he got it.
What is explained is Ultra Instinct was achieved by trying to resist the spirit bomb.
And the spirit bomb was the temporary power source to keep him in his new "Heat" form for a while.
Whis specifically stated he didn't know how the new form came about apart from Ultra Instinct.
It was explained. It was achieved by the clash of Goku's own power with the power of the Genki Dama that was absorbed by Goku. The Genki Dama temporarily restored Goku's lost power, and the new form made him even stronger & granted him Ultra Instict. However, because Goku's own power was depleted, and the Genki Dama power he had absorbed could only last temporarily, the new form didn't last for long.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:25 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Miracles wrote:I'm not denying the new "Heat" form. However it wasn't explained how he got it.
What is explained is Ultra Instinct was achieved by trying to resist the spirit bomb.
And the spirit bomb was the temporary power source to keep him in his new "Heat" form for a while.
Whis specifically stated he didn't know how the new form came about apart from Ultra Instinct.
It was explained. It was achieved by the clash of Goku's own power with the power of the Genki Dama that was absorbed by Goku. The Genki Dama temporarily restored Goku's lost power, and the new form made him even stronger & granted him Ultra Instict. However, because Goku's own power was depleted, and the Genki Dama power he had absorbed could only last temporarily, the new form didn't last for long.
You see the bold? That was never stated in Whis explanation. Whis only explained Ultra Instinct was triggered by the bomb.
It also was a temporary power source for Goku [New form]. He said he didn't know about the "Heat". Which means UI was not from the new form.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by MrUnusual » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:30 pm

I don't think Ultra Instinct is a form as much as it is a state. It's the mastery of a state of self movement. The aura around him I believe was a combination of his own spirit energy from deep within him that had been unlocked combined with the spirit energy of others that he had collected for the spirit bomb. I think the heat was calm because it was energy created by others and it was without a signature, ki signature is life force ki, I believe Goku's life energy was gone during this state which gave him a clear mind which allowed his body to react on it's own instinctively

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:32 pm

Goku transformed and went into Ultra Instinct is how I saw it. The teasing about Goku getting a new form and breaking his limits wasn't for nothing. Her needs Ultra Instinct and Limit breaker to match Jiren.

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:41 am

Miracles wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Miracles wrote:I'm not denying the new "Heat" form. However it wasn't explained how he got it.
What is explained is Ultra Instinct was achieved by trying to resist the spirit bomb.
And the spirit bomb was the temporary power source to keep him in his new "Heat" form for a while.
Whis specifically stated he didn't know how the new form came about apart from Ultra Instinct.
It was explained. It was achieved by the clash of Goku's own power with the power of the Genki Dama that was absorbed by Goku. The Genki Dama temporarily restored Goku's lost power, and the new form made him even stronger & granted him Ultra Instict. However, because Goku's own power was depleted, and the Genki Dama power he had absorbed could only last temporarily, the new form didn't last for long.
You see the bold? That was never stated in Whis explanation. Whis only explained Ultra Instinct was triggered by the bomb.
It also was a temporary power source for Goku [New form]. He said he didn't know about the "Heat". Which means UI was not from the new form.
You mean that Goku happened to get 2 power-ups at once? Because the form is called Ultra Instict "Omen" in video games & merchandise, meaning that Ultra Instict & the new form are connected.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by Miracles » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:46 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Miracles wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: It was explained. It was achieved by the clash of Goku's own power with the power of the Genki Dama that was absorbed by Goku. The Genki Dama temporarily restored Goku's lost power, and the new form made him even stronger & granted him Ultra Instict. However, because Goku's own power was depleted, and the Genki Dama power he had absorbed could only last temporarily, the new form didn't last for long.
You see the bold? That was never stated in Whis explanation. Whis only explained Ultra Instinct was triggered by the bomb.
It also was a temporary power source for Goku [New form]. He said he didn't know about the "Heat". Which means UI was not from the new form.
You mean that Goku happened to get 2 power-ups at once? Because the form is called Ultra Instict "Omen" in video games & merchandise, meaning that Ultra Instict & the new form are connected.
Well, Whis in the anime didn't say so. Don't know about the games. We'll see tho.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by majinwarman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:31 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Nothing implies Ultra Instinct to be specifically that much stronger than SSJB. And quite frankly, I think Dragon Ball shouldn't dip its toe into multipliers again. It'll just bring more unnecessary debates and quarreling among the fandom.
I think you are right about the multipliers thing. But, I think that there is definitely a boost in power.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:06 am

majinwarman wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Nothing implies Ultra Instinct to be specifically that much stronger than SSJB. And quite frankly, I think Dragon Ball shouldn't dip its toe into multipliers again. It'll just bring more unnecessary debates and quarreling among the fandom.
I think you are right about the multipliers thing. But, I think that there is definitely a boost in power.
Oh I'm certain there is a boost in power. I just don't want any specific numbers relating to that boost in power to ever be mentioned.

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:30 pm

I think its now safe to presume UI is somewhere around a 50x boost as per episode 116 of DBS, in which SSJ Kefura is stated to be on par with the Genki Dama used against Jiren but then takes an additional step of doubling her power with SSJ2. This ought to put her at a x40 boost from SSJB Goku, that is if SSJ Kefura is supposed to be = Kaio-ken x20 Goku + Genki Dama which is what I'm guessing. She is capable of battling SSJG Goku as a base Saiyan after all.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by majinwarman » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:25 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
majinwarman wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Nothing implies Ultra Instinct to be specifically that much stronger than SSJB. And quite frankly, I think Dragon Ball shouldn't dip its toe into multipliers again. It'll just bring more unnecessary debates and quarreling among the fandom.
I think you are right about the multipliers thing. But, I think that there is definitely a boost in power.
Oh I'm certain there is a boost in power. I just don't want any specific numbers relating to that boost in power to ever be mentioned.
I understand what you mean now! Thanks for clarify what you were saying.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:27 pm

Ultra Instinct is stronger than SSB. We don't know how much stronger and, quite frankly, I don't really want a concrete answer. Concrete numbers are one of the bigger sticking points with the show. While I like shows having a basic structure (such as transformation X makes character Y stronger), exact numbers make things too messy.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct 50x Stronger Than SSJB?

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:02 am

I'd rather still believe that UI is a technique and not an increase in power. It certainly does look like Goku has more power, but I think the speed increase is actually just Goku responding faster due to better reaction times and his body moving instinctively. In terms of his attack strength, I think it is the same, but the difference is that his attacks are more likely to be critical hits and connect. Due to UI, he can instinctively dodge and attack at the perfect time to land every hit. It's not that the power of those hits increased. Just like that point-blank kamehameha on Kefla. It's also possible that UI is bringing out all his latent potential similar to the Ultimate state Gohan has along with instinctively moving which would explain how he can still do damage while in base.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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