Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

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ItsIonic
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Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by ItsIonic » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:18 pm

When talking about Super, many people bring up how "powerscaling has been thrown out he window" or how "powerscaling doesn't make any sense", and I have to ask, does it honestly not? In my opinion, it's actually not terrible.

Aside from the Universe 6 Saiyans, it actually does make sense. Even then, the U6 Saiyans at least had explanations as to why they were so strong(whether it was a good one or not is a different story, but at least it made some sense.) [spoiler]Even with the reintroduction of fusion with Kefla, it still works[/spoiler]

2 CHILDREN SSJ1s could fuse and transform into SSJ3 nearly beating Buu(or at least rivaling him) so are you honestly telling me that [spoiler]a Super Saiyan 2 and a Berserk Saiyan(who's marginally(or at least seems to be) stronger than a normal Super Saiyan's fusion couldn't go at least toe to toe with a tired, potentially not even going all out SSJG Goku?[/spoiler]

Most of it actually makes sense, but I feel like some people are just actively trying to find something to complain about. Anyone else agree?

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:42 pm

Its not just Ssg it's Ssb as well. The next episode is literally titled "Ssb Goku defeated?" Which shows that this fusion is waaay to strong for comfort. If potara is this good why didn't they use Vegito back in BOG? Why didn't Vegito wreck merged Zamasu like he did in the manga? Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.

Goku x Vegeta
Zamasu x Goku Black.

Goku and Vegeta are both far stronger than Zamasu and get a rival boost and were still somewhat equal with Merged Zamasu.

Kale and Caulifla are buu saga tier but when they fused they force Goku to go Ssb? C'mon now that is a little much.

You know the U6 saiyans are something else.Time and time again they asspull their way to a new level with out any real explanation. People claim their base forms are buuhan level yet don't have ssj?While Goten and Trunks have ssj without it being taught to them and are weaker than Kale and Caulifla? How can this possibly be?

Super is starting to make me wonder about things.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by ItsIonic » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:28 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:Its not just Ssg it's Ssb as well. The next episode is literally titled "Ssb Goku defeated?" Which shows that this fusion is waaay to strong for comfort. If potara is this good why didn't they use Vegito back in BOG?
Well for one, even though the titles are really spoilerish, they're still sometimes hyperbolic. At most it means that Goku needs to use Kaioken, and even then? Goku is still not fully recovered plus he very well could be holding back. By now everyone should have figured out that Goku is NEVER a good benchmark for powerscaling. You also have to keep in mind that it's likely SSJ Kefla which is a 50x multiplier along with the fusion multiplier and whatever Berserk adds.

Vegetto wouldn't have been strong enough to beat Beerus, even if he was, neither Goku nor Vegeta would want to fuse. Even THEN! They would have to get the earrings and I doubt the Kais would even agree to do that given their fear coupled with the link between gods of destruction and supreme kais.
Why didn't Vegito wreck merged Zamasu like he did in the manga? Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.

Goku x Vegeta
Zamasu x Goku Black.

Goku and Vegeta are both far stronger than Zamasu and get a rival boost and were still somewhat equal with Merged Zamasu
It's actually not. I don't remember exactly what the Daizenshuu said specifically regarding Potara Fusion multipliers but it did say something along the lines of "many times stronger." The episode itself stated that Potara Fusion is the sum of both people multiplied by "tens of times." Vegetto didn't defeat MZ because he got cocky+time limit. Toriyama even stated in a recent interview that 2 SSJBs would have been enough to beat him.
Kale and Caulifla are buu saga tier but when they fused they force Goku to go Ssb? C'mon now that is a little much.

You know the U6 saiyans are something else.Time and time again they asspull their way to a new level with out any real explanation. People claim their base forms are buuhan level yet don't have ssj?While Goten and Trunks have ssj without it being taught to them and are weaker than Kale and Caulifla? How can this possibly be?

Super is starting to make me wonder about things.
It's as simple as their bases being extremely strong. You don't have to achieve SSJ to get insanely strong, there's no connection unless I missed something.

I do agree that the U6 Saiyans are getting the forms a bit too fast, though. It would have been nice if SSJ1 was a semi-common thing among Saiyans in U6... Cabba could have had it. Imagine if Vegeta's first encounter with Cabba was teaching him about SSJ2? That would make much more sense imo. They could have just explained that SSJ1 isn't extremely rare in that universe and Caulifla/Kale having it would make more sense too.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Ilikepictures-meh » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:37 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:Its not just Ssg it's Ssb as well. The next episode is literally titled "Ssb Goku defeated?" Which shows that this fusion is waaay to strong for comfort. If potara is this good why didn't they use Vegito back in BOG? Why didn't Vegito wreck merged Zamasu like he did in the manga? Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.

Goku x Vegeta
Zamasu x Goku Black.

Goku and Vegeta are both far stronger than Zamasu and get a rival boost and were still somewhat equal with Merged Zamasu.

Kale and Caulifla are buu saga tier but when they fused they force Goku to go Ssb? C'mon now that is a little much.

You know the U6 saiyans are something else.Time and time again they asspull their way to a new level with out any real explanation. People claim their base forms are buuhan level yet don't have ssj?While Goten and Trunks have ssj without it being taught to them and are weaker than Kale and Caulifla? How can this possibly be?

Super is starting to make me wonder about things.
The next episode title could mean nothing. The preview didn't show the U6 Saiyan's fusion beating on Ssjblue Goku at all, it did in fact showed the fusion has received some damage, and we already saw an episode title hype a character up, with Krillin. The very episode he was eliminated in.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Captain Strawberry » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:53 pm

I think the source is Goku and Vegeta have become too strong that we don't know when they are very serious.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Berserker1921 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:25 am

I believe that since universe 6 saiyans never achieved ssj. They're bases must be massively more powerful then the other saiyans of universe 7. If Goku and Vegeta were barely below Frieza's level before meeting Beerus. I suspect that universe saiyans like cabba, califua, and kale are probably above imperfect cell level to darbura level beings before achieving ssj. Which means when achieving ssj or ssj2 they become very powerful.

Also remember Goku right now is running on fumes. Jiren whooped his ass worse then Black did when they fought. And Black was trying to kill him.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Juub » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:40 am

Perfectionist-Cell wrote: Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.
Nobody ever said that.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by manwolf » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:27 am

the problem is that transformation in super makes little sense so the power scaling makes no sense.
Add a lot of character with vague references of power and Gohan with plot weakness and the power scaling is awful.

The scale can work with the strongest characters but with no god level characters is impossible.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:44 am

Juub wrote:
Perfectionist-Cell wrote: Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.
Nobody ever said that.
Super exciting guide states it.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:51 am

ItsIonic wrote:
Perfectionist-Cell wrote:Its not just Ssg it's Ssb as well. The next episode is literally titled "Ssb Goku defeated?" Which shows that this fusion is waaay to strong for comfort. If potara is this good why didn't they use Vegito back in BOG?
Well for one, even though the titles are really spoilerish, they're still sometimes hyperbolic. At most it means that Goku needs to use Kaioken, and even then? Goku is still not fully recovered plus he very well could be holding back. By now everyone should have figured out that Goku is NEVER a good benchmark for powerscaling. You also have to keep in mind that it's likely SSJ Kefla which is a 50x multiplier along with the fusion multiplier and whatever Berserk adds.

Vegetto wouldn't have been strong enough to beat Beerus, even if he was, neither Goku nor Vegeta would want to fuse. Even THEN! They would have to get the earrings and I doubt the Kais would even agree to do that given their fear coupled with the link between gods of destruction and supreme kais.
Why didn't Vegito wreck merged Zamasu like he did in the manga? Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.

Goku x Vegeta
Zamasu x Goku Black.

Goku and Vegeta are both far stronger than Zamasu and get a rival boost and were still somewhat equal with Merged Zamasu
It's actually not. I don't remember exactly what the Daizenshuu said specifically regarding Potara Fusion multipliers but it did say something along the lines of "many times stronger." The episode itself stated that Potara Fusion is the sum of both people multiplied by "tens of times." Vegetto didn't defeat MZ because he got cocky+time limit. Toriyama even stated in a recent interview that 2 SSJBs would have been enough to beat him.
Kale and Caulifla are buu saga tier but when they fused they force Goku to go Ssb? C'mon now that is a little much.

You know the U6 saiyans are something else.Time and time again they asspull their way to a new level with out any real explanation. People claim their base forms are buuhan level yet don't have ssj?While Goten and Trunks have ssj without it being taught to them and are weaker than Kale and Caulifla? How can this possibly be?

Super is starting to make me wonder about things.
It's as simple as their bases being extremely strong. You don't have to achieve SSJ to get insanely strong, there's no connection unless I missed something.

I do agree that the U6 Saiyans are getting the forms a bit too fast, though. It would have been nice if SSJ1 was a semi-common thing among Saiyans in U6... Cabba could have had it. Imagine if Vegeta's first encounter with Cabba was teaching him about SSJ2? That would make much more sense imo. They could have just explained that SSJ1 isn't extremely rare in that universe and Caulifla/Kale having it would make more sense too.

God Goku didn't beat Beerus either you know. Goten and Trunks are weaker than Kale and Caulifla yet have ssj without it being taught to them. This means you don't need someone to teach you to obtain ssj. If their base forns were really as strong as many fans claim they would have ssj and ssj2 no problem but they don't. Its hust an asspull like i said. The Super Exciting Guide states it's A x B in power levels. So i dont know why you are denying it.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 am

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:
Juub wrote:
Perfectionist-Cell wrote: Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.
Nobody ever said that.
Super exciting guide states it.
The Super exciting guide isn't canon and Vados would of said it is axb if that was the case.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by ItsIonic » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:03 am

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:God Goku didn't beat Beerus either you know. Goten and Trunks are weaker than Kale and Caulifla yet have ssj without it being taught to them. This means you don't need someone to teach you to obtain ssj. If their base forns were really as strong as many fans claim they would have ssj and ssj2 no problem but they don't. Its hust an asspull like i said. The Super Exciting Guide states it's A x B in power levels. So i dont know why you are denying it.

Well, by your logic, the U6 Saiyans obtaining SSJ2 so easily should make sense, no? Again, just being strong doesn't mean you'll have or easily have access to Super Saiyan.

The Daizenshuu actually doesn't say that. The only thing close to it is "Goku x Vegeta" which means Goku cross Vegeta and not Goku times Vegeta.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Taingo » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:44 pm

I'm gonna' play devil's advocate, here. I always go by the fan theory that Goku and Vegeta were already Super Saiyans when Trunks and Goten were conceived. That, and the fact that their hybrids, so I also go with humans having a wider range of emotions than full blood saiyans, wide range of emotions=more power for their saiyan halves, and since Super Saiyan is a very emotionally based form, it works. Plus, Goten and Trunks have been around each other, and could have seen Gohan and Vegeta do it a few times, so they could have easily picked it up from their elders, or perhaps even themselves if one got the form before the other. The U6 saiyans had no clue this transformation existed at all, had no one to teach them, and they were so powerful in base already, who could challenge them other than Hit that would push them over the edge like a Frieza or Cell? Without any emotional trigger, or someone showing them that it can be done, I don't think it matters how strong their base is. Like with any technique, if they don't learn how to do it, they won't/can't do it. I don't like it very much, but I don't think it's that big of a deal breaker either.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Boo Machine » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:51 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote: Super exciting guide states it.
A guide doesn't mean much. If you need a guide books to do homework with to explain the lore of the show that it couldn't explain itself, then the lore of the show must not have been very solid to begin with, and it certainly isn't as solid as some folk would like to pretend.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by theherodjl » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:54 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
Perfectionist-Cell wrote: Super exciting guide states it.
A guide doesn't mean much. If you need a guide books to do homework with to explain the lore of the show that it couldn't explain itself, then the lore of the show must not have been very solid to begin with, and it certainly isn't as solid as some folk would like to pretend.
While I don't agree that the SEG's statement on the potara was a literal power level times power level equation, the guides do mean much, in fact they are required for some details that were not apparent within the manga or anime. We need the guides to answer frequently asked questions and to aid in fan theories contributing to the argument based on something official, they can't just be dismissed.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Boo Machine » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:14 pm

theherodjl wrote: While I don't agree that the SEG's statement on the potara was a literal power level times power level equation, the guides do mean much, in fact they are required for some details that were not apparent within the manga or anime. We need the guides to answer frequently asked questions and to aid in fan theories contributing to the argument based on something official, they can't just be dismissed.
I'd be willing to consider some things. In fact I have on a couple of occasions. But not everything put to these books. I'm in the camp of, the Original run of the manga already tells us everything we need to know.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Juub » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:34 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:
Juub wrote:
Perfectionist-Cell wrote: Fusion is power level multiplied by power level.
Nobody ever said that.
Super exciting guide states it.
Super Exciting Guide said that the fusion is more of a multiplication than an addition. It never said it's a straight multiplication of both power levels.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:39 pm

The only time I've really scratched my head, in regards to power scaling, was with Episode 57. That episode was all over the place. Everything else has been inoffensive to me. I don't really care much for whether characters make huge jumps in power through off-screen methods, because it has happened so much in Dragon Ball prior to Super, that I'm just numb to whole concept. If it happen, it happens.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by theherodjl » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:50 am

Lord Beerus wrote:The only time I've really scratched my head, in regards to power scaling, was with Episode 57. That episode was all over the place. Everything else has been inoffensive to me. I don't really care much for whether characters make huge jumps in power through off-screen methods, because it has happened so much in Dragon Ball prior to Super, that I'm just numb to whole concept. If it happen, it happens.
What about 'Super Trunks'? Jumping from the SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier just by getting angry? Or the BS in which Trunks can make a genki dama sword on the spot to overpower a foe close to a Hakaishin in power?
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: The power scaling in Super is fine and makes some sense

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:29 am

theherodjl wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:The only time I've really scratched my head, in regards to power scaling, was with Episode 57. That episode was all over the place. Everything else has been inoffensive to me. I don't really care much for whether characters make huge jumps in power through off-screen methods, because it has happened so much in Dragon Ball prior to Super, that I'm just numb to whole concept. If it happen, it happens.
What about 'Super Trunks'? Jumping from the SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier just by getting angry? Or the BS in which Trunks can make a genki dama sword on the spot to overpower a foe close to a Hakaishin in power?
Future Trunks got angry and his power mutated and spiked to insane heights just like it's happened to Gohan, Goku and Vegeta in the past. It's hardly a new thing and has some precedence, so I don't mind it much. The Genki Dama sword is nonsense, but Future Trunks was given power from a fully healed Goku and Vegeta after they defused, so I'd imagine that on top of being SSJB tier character in "Super Trunks" his power multiplied even more with the addition of two SSJB tier character, who are much stronger than him, giving him a good chunk of their and stack on top with the power of spontaneous Genki Dama like energy sphere his absorbed, and I would imagine that "Super Trunks" at that stage would be quite powerful.

Plus, Merged/Fused Zamasu was not Hakaishin level.

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