Super's feats and DBZ's feats

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Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by ahill1 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:31 am

Okay, we know that in Super --both in the manga and in the anime -- Goku and Beerus during their fight showed big destruction feats, like putting the whole Universe in danger (correct if I am wrong though, as I am not so familiar with it), whereas later on they didn't show such feats anymore in the fights (or they weren't present in every fight). People who defend those characters being Universe busters (assuming that's the feat Goku and Beerus were about to accomplish) try to explain there not being similar feats in other fights like this one due to the fact that the writers -- or Toriyama -- already drove the point home that they are capable of such feats, so it's no longer necessary to include them in every fight.

But, isn't this a similar logic as saying that, since Raditz showed a reaction speed fast enough to dodge something at the speed of light (or faster than it, considering a generic chi blast from Piccolo could reach the moon pretty fast) then the author doesn't have to show the characters moving so fast in subsequent fights (like Gotenks taking a minute to reach Boo's home, or everyone being impressed Goku could travel between 10,000/20,000kms pretty fast) since them moving at such speed was already established?

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by theherodjl » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:36 pm

ahill1 wrote:Okay, we know that in Super --both in the manga and in the anime -- Goku and Beerus during their fight showed big destruction feats, like putting the whole Universe in danger (correct if I am wrong though, as I am not so familiar with it), whereas later on they didn't show such feats anymore in the fights (or they weren't present in every fight). People who defend those characters being Universe busters (assuming that's the feat Goku and Beerus were about to accomplish) try to explain there not being similar feats in other fights like this one due to the fact that the writers -- or Toriyama -- already drove the point home that they are capable of such feats, so it's no longer necessary to include them in every fight.

But, isn't this a similar logic as saying that, since Raditz showed a reaction speed fast enough to dodge something at the speed of light (or faster than it, considering a generic chi blast from Piccolo could reach the moon pretty fast) then the author doesn't have to show the characters moving so fast in subsequent fights (like Gotenks taking a minute to reach Boo's home, or everyone being impressed Goku could travel between 10,000/20,000kms pretty fast) since them moving at such speed was already established?
Personally, I think that Beerus & SSJG Goku's universe feat was the result of two fighters with God Ki colliding in an uncontrollable manner with the emphasis on one of them being a Hakaishin, any other fight that is depicted without either a transformation granting both fighters God Ki and/or none of them being Hakaishin then we get ordinary combatants with non-universe destroying Ki.
In the latest manga chapter, other Hakaishin take note that Goku is a powerful fighter but it isn't until he transforms into SSJG that they acknowledge that Goku has the power or "presence" of a God, making a clear distinction between SSJ3 Goku + latent God power vs SSJG Goku. Toppo presumably has God Ki as well by his own mentioning in response to Goku "finally" giving off the presence of a God and powering up himself, Iwen even states that their power is on the level of Gods. No such statements are ever made for non-God beings however.

Also Raditz is in no way as fast as the speed or light let alone faster, it was only in Funi's dub that lightspeed was ever mentioned while in both the manga and Japanese all that was stated by Piccolo was along the lines of "But no one could move so fast..." instead of any comparison to measurements of speed.
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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by Speedster » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:58 pm

Well and DBZ’s feats (DB chapters 195-519) are inconsistent with those in the original Dragonball (DB chapters 1-194). But anyway, for the record, the anime did have a universal feat back in the Buu arc with Vegetto and Super Buu:
DBZ episode 270, min 19-20
Context:Dende explaining to Mr Satan the danger of Buuhan’s actions.
There was a time when Majin Buu was sealed up in the Room of Spirit and Time. Mad with anger, Majin Buu used his power to break through the wall between dimensions, and then came out. Look at this, if you would [pointing out to what is going on with Buuhan]. Having forgotten himself in anger, the extreme power radiating from Majin Buu is causing the space surrounding him to warp! At this rate, the walls between dimensions will break down, and other dimensions will rush through!
DBZ episode 270, min 20-21
Context: SSJ Vegetto after watching Buuhan’s madness results
This is bad! He has gotten completely fired up! If I don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions!
Also, in Super, SSJ2 Kefla, in episode 116, said she had the power to destroy an entire universe with a single shot.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by TheMikado » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:31 pm

ahill1 wrote:Okay, we know that in Super --both in the manga and in the anime -- Goku and Beerus during their fight showed big destruction feats, like putting the whole Universe in danger (correct if I am wrong though, as I am not so familiar with it), whereas later on they didn't show such feats anymore in the fights (or they weren't present in every fight). People who defend those characters being Universe busters (assuming that's the feat Goku and Beerus were about to accomplish) try to explain there not being similar feats in other fights like this one due to the fact that the writers -- or Toriyama -- already drove the point home that they are capable of such feats, so it's no longer necessary to include them in every fight.

But, isn't this a similar logic as saying that, since Raditz showed a reaction speed fast enough to dodge something at the speed of light (or faster than it, considering a generic chi blast from Piccolo could reach the moon pretty fast) then the author doesn't have to show the characters moving so fast in subsequent fights (like Gotenks taking a minute to reach Boo's home, or everyone being impressed Goku could travel between 10,000/20,000kms pretty fast) since them moving at such speed was already established?
Sure of course, the issue is this is the starting point of Super. That their punches can annihilate a universe. In Z for instance Vegeta shows a feat where he capable of planet level destruction although it seems that method is by aiming at the core of planetary objects as demonstrated by Frieza. Anyway when that is your starting point it’s hard to get magnitudes stronger.

When Z ended they were warping time and space from their power where as they started out as planet busters and even Cell was thought to be only a solar system buster. Buu and Vegito were never said to be capable of universe level destructions.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:16 pm

Raditz was never stated to be the speed of light in the manga or Japanese anime. That was another inaccurate line in the English dub.
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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:58 pm

Well... Dragon ball does a real shitty job at displayong feats and there are barely any to begin with and the rest are just statements with no real power behind them so i think this topic should just drop.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by Speedster » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:38 pm

TheMikado wrote:Buu and Vegito were never said to be capable of universe level destructions.
Yes, they were. As I said above in episode 270 in the anime. Screenshots below:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
As you can read it is stated that Buuhan would be able to break down the walls between dimensions resulting to other dimensions rushing through and crushing the universe. Super Vegetto was later able to punch through and break that barrier. You can even possibly infer that Vegetto punched away these universe-crushing alternate dimensions from rushing out and destroying the universe.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by pacz360 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:51 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:Well... Dragon ball does a real shitty job at displayong feats and there are barely any to begin with and the rest are just statements with no real power behind them so i think this topic should just drop.
Not really they don't especially in Super

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by MR.Mark » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:13 am

Feats of strength are inconsistent in the series, one of the side effects of not planning the story ahead. Sure, Raditz may not be stated to be faster than light, but with Toriyama having to do elaborate gags with Roshi having to show everyone how he fought back in the tournament days Raditz may aswell be a universe buster. I think it's ludicrous to even doubt Vegetto of all people couldin't bust the universe.

Vegeta powering up in the Saiyan saga shook the planet, yet Gohan and Cell's kamehameha struggle seemed to have about the same effect. Once again, sometimes it just comes down to serving the story.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by DSB » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:42 am

Speedster wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Buu and Vegito were never said to be capable of universe level destructions.
Yes, they were. As I said above in episode 270 in the anime. Screenshots below:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
As you can read it is stated that Buuhan would be able to break down the walls between dimensions resulting to other dimensions rushing through and crushing the universe. Super Vegetto was later able to punch through and break that barrier. You can even possibly infer that Vegetto punched away these universe-crushing alternate dimensions from rushing out and destroying the universe.
You do realize that was non canon right?

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:59 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Raditz was never stated to be the speed of light in the manga or Japanese anime. That was another inaccurate line in the English dub.
What he said.

And there are also multiple things contradicting SSG Goku being universal level later on.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by SuperDragoon » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:40 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Raditz was never stated to be the speed of light in the manga or Japanese anime. That was another inaccurate line in the English dub.
What he said.

And there are also multiple things contradicting SSG Goku being universal level later on.
No, there really isn't. SSG Goku being universal is a fact shown by Super.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:18 am

SuperDragoon wrote: No, there really isn't. SSG Goku being universal is a fact shown by Super.
Shockwaves that would eventually destroy the universe through a chain reaction isn't a fact. If you think Super has shown SSG is universe level then Buuhan is universe level as well since in the anime of DBZ it was stated the universe would collapse from the holes he was making in the dimension.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:26 am

dragon boss z wrote:
SuperDragoon wrote: No, there really isn't. SSG Goku being universal is a fact shown by Super.
Shockwaves that would eventually destroy the universe through a chain reaction isn't a fact. If you think Super has shown SSG is universe level then Buuhan is universe level as well since in the anime of DBZ it was stated the universe would collapse from the holes he was making in the dimension.
That was filler though.

I think the Hakaishin have the power to destroy the universe but they can't just erase it instantly like Zeno can.
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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by TheMikado » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:45 am

Speedster wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Buu and Vegito were never said to be capable of universe level destructions.
Yes, they were. As I said above in episode 270 in the anime. Screenshots below:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
As you can read it is stated that Buuhan would be able to break down the walls between dimensions resulting to other dimensions rushing through and crushing the universe. Super Vegetto was later able to punch through and break that barrier. You can even possibly infer that Vegetto punched away these universe-crushing alternate dimensions from rushing out and destroying the universe.
1) first and foremost that was filler.
2) They never said he of his own power was capable of universe destruction. In this scenario he's breaking down dimensional walls, the end result of which is another dimension rushing in and destroying the universe.
Its like explosives on a dam that destroys a town. In no way does it mean you have powerful enough explosives to destroy a town. In either case its never said in canon and even in this filler that these guys can destroy the universe of their own power.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by Speedster » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:52 pm

^^ Oh yeah, the canon argument… For starters I already said it is anime material. I don't need pointers. I know the story very well. Thank you very much. And second the title of this thread is about DBZ feats versus Super feats. Last time I checked DBZ actually referred to the anime implementation of the story. There is no DBZ manga in Japanese. Also you yourself referred to an anime filler scene where Vegeta showed a planetary destruction feat by aiming at its core. Unless you don't know that the planet Arlia scene is an anime filler… Well you now know… And there was no other scene where Vegeta actually showed he was capable of destroying a planet. He said he could destroy the Earth but he didn't show it.

Also breaking down the dimensional walls and destroying the universe as a result is a universal destruction feat. It doesn't matter how you do it as long as the net effect does. Much like when Vegeta or Freeza were destroying the planet’s core causing it to get destroyed rather than blasting away or annihilating every single molecule of the planet.

Now is Buuhan’s anime feat the same as Zeno erasing the universe in one omnidirectional shot? Of course not. Never I said it is. But neither are the shockwaves of episode 12 and manga’s chapter 4 in Super comparable to that anyway. One can claim that what was actually happening was that the shockwaves’ frequency was matching the natural frequency of the universal membranes causing amplified oscillations due to resonance ultimately causing the universe’s destruction. Match like when soldiers are marching on rhythm on a bridge and that happens to match the natural frequency of the structure it causes the bridge to collapse due to harmonic resonance.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by TheMikado » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:10 pm

Speedster wrote:^^ Oh yeah, the canon argument… For starters I already said it is anime material. I don't need pointers. I know the story very well. Thank you very much. And second the title of this thread is about DBZ feats versus Super feats. Last time I checked DBZ actually referred to the anime implementation of the story. There is no DBZ manga in Japanese. Also you yourself referred to an anime filler scene where Vegeta showed a planetary destruction feat by aiming at its core. Unless you don't know that the planet Arlia scene is an anime filler… Well you now know… And there was no other scene where Vegeta actually showed he was capable of destroying a planet. He said he could destroy the Earth but he didn't show it.

Also breaking down the dimensional walls and destroying the universe as a result is a universal destruction feat. It doesn't matter how you do it as long as the net effect does. Much like when Vegeta or Freeza were destroying the planet’s core causing it to get destroyed rather than blasting away or annihilating every single molecule of the planet.

Now is Buuhan’s anime feat the same as Zeno erasing the universe in one omnidirectional shot? Of course not. Never I said it is. But neither are the shockwaves of episode 12 and manga’s chapter 4 in Super comparable to that anyway. One can claim that what was actually happening was that the shockwaves’ frequency was matching the natural frequency of the universal membranes causing amplified oscillations due to resonance ultimately causing the universe’s destruction. Match like when soldiers are marching on rhythm on a bridge and that happens to match the natural frequency of the structure it causes the bridge to collapse due to harmonic resonance.
The OP was actually referencing the author multiple times so it doesn't appear they were aware the original author didn't write those scenes. The point stands.

As for the rest of it. OK, whatever you want to believe it fiction anyway so its all fair game.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by ahill1 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:14 pm

theherodjl wrote:Also Raditz is in no way as fast as the speed or light let alone faster, it was only in Funi's dub that lightspeed was ever mentioned
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Raditz was never stated to be the speed of light in the manga or Japanese anime. That was another inaccurate line in the English dub.
I have never based the argument of Raditz reacting (or at least dodging someting thrown at him) at the speed of light based on the English dub line (that I wasn't even aware existed since I have never watched Dragon Ball in the English Dub)... I was basing it on Piccolo's generic chi blast reaching the moon pretty fast when he destroyed it so Oozaru Gohan would turn back to normal:

Image

The Makankosappo should be logically faster than that generic blast.

This feat is contradicted by subsequent ones (like Goku in the Serpent road, Gotenks and so on)... but since some people say that the people handling Super doesn't have to show other fights of a high calliber like the one between Goku vs Beerus having the risk of destroying the Universe since it was already established that this level of power is enough to accomplish that, isn't that the same as saying that Akira Toriyama doesn't have to show his characters moving at the speed of Light is subsequent events since it was already shown Raditz could do that? Or is there some flaw with this comparison?

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:50 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: That was filler though.
The Super anime is a continuation of Kai and references filler and has filler characters. It is canon to the Super anime.
I think the Hakaishin have the power to destroy the universe but they can't just erase it instantly like Zeno can.
I agree but the Hakaishin>>>>>>>>>>SSG Goku. I'm just saying BoG arc SSG Goku wasn't universe level, not that the GoD aren't.
TheMikado wrote: 1) first and foremost that was filler.
mentioned above
2) They never said he of his own power was capable of universe destruction. In this scenario he's breaking down dimensional walls, the end result of which is another dimension rushing in and destroying the universe.
Its like explosives on a dam that destroys a town. In no way does it mean you have powerful enough explosives to destroy a town. In either case its never said in canon and even in this filler that these guys can destroy the universe of their own power.
They never said Goku could destroy the universe by himself with his own power either. They only said that about Beerus, who I think is probably universe level.

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Re: Super's feats and DBZ's feats

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:54 pm

ahill1 wrote:
theherodjl wrote:Also Raditz is in no way as fast as the speed or light let alone faster, it was only in Funi's dub that lightspeed was ever mentioned
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Raditz was never stated to be the speed of light in the manga or Japanese anime. That was another inaccurate line in the English dub.
I have never based the argument of Raditz reacting (or at least dodging someting thrown at him) at the speed of light based on the English dub line (that I wasn't even aware existed since I have never watched Dragon Ball in the English Dub)... I was basing it on Piccolo's generic chi blast reaching the moon pretty fast when he destroyed it so Oozaru Gohan would turn back to normal:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The Makankosappo should be logically faster than that generic blast.

This feat is contradicted by subsequent ones (like Goku in the Serpent road, Gotenks and so on)... but since some people say that the people handling Super doesn't have to show other fights of a high calliber like the one between Goku vs Beerus having the risk of destroying the Universe since it was already established that this level of power is enough to accomplish that, isn't that the same as saying that Akira Toriyama doesn't have to show his characters moving at the speed of Light is subsequent events since it was already shown Raditz could do that? Or is there some flaw with this comparison?

That moon feat is an outlier in general.

Krillin with a power level of over 10,000 took a few hours just to travel across Namek while going at full speed and Goku after his training with a power level of over 8,000 only traveled around mach 30. It even took Frieza a good amount of time to cross Namek, probably around a few minutes. Gotenks has the best speed feat in the manga being around relativistic. DBS god tier characters are FTL

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