Is there a need for the existence of this specific Trunks' timeline?

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Is there a need for the existence of this specific Trunks' timeline?

Post by ahill1 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:45 am

Is there a need for the existence of a timeline to where Mirai Trunks [from Cell's timeline] travellled to? Many people assume that when Mirai Trunks got to kill the androids "somehow" in Cell's timeline, there was another timeline he travelled to and supposedly got the blueprints there so he could destroy them. I even know that this timeline is made clear in the Daizenshuu, but as far as the manga goes, is there a need for such timeline?

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:38 am

ahill1 wrote:Is there a need for the existence of a timeline to where Mirai Trunks [from Cell's timeline] travellled to? Many people assume that when Mirai Trunks got to kill the androids "somehow" in Cell's timeline, there was another timeline he travelled to and supposedly got the blueprints there so he could destroy them. I even know that this timeline is made clear in the Daizenshuu, but as far as the manga goes, is there a need for such timeline?
There isn't, even one(or some can't recall) guidebook only pointed out 3 timelines(Future Trunks', Cell's and the main one).
If we go with your setup from the other thread, namely that Cell himself is from a timeline, that was altered by Trunks killing Freeza and Cold and providing the heart medicine, then we only need the three and can easily headcanon a reason to why that would be, though of course it's just head canon.

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:23 am

dbgtFO wrote:
ahill1 wrote:Is there a need for the existence of a timeline to where Mirai Trunks [from Cell's timeline] travellled to? Many people assume that when Mirai Trunks got to kill the androids "somehow" in Cell's timeline, there was another timeline he travelled to and supposedly got the blueprints there so he could destroy them. I even know that this timeline is made clear in the Daizenshuu, but as far as the manga goes, is there a need for such timeline?
There isn't, even one(or some can't recall) guidebook only pointed out 3 timelines(Future Trunks', Cell's and the main one).
If we go with your setup from the other thread, namely that Cell himself is from a timeline, that was altered by Trunks killing Freeza and Cold and providing the heart medicine, then we only need the three and can easily headcanon a reason to why that would be, though of course it's just head canon.
It was the Chozenshuu, if I'm not mistaken. They basically copy/pasted the Daizenshuu timelines, and cut out the fourth one.
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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Doctor. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:27 am

ahill1 wrote:Is there a need for the existence of a timeline to where Mirai Trunks [from Cell's timeline] travellled to? Many people assume that when Mirai Trunks got to kill the androids "somehow" in Cell's timeline, there was another timeline he travelled to and supposedly got the blueprints there so he could destroy them. I even know that this timeline is made clear in the Daizenshuu, but as far as the manga goes, is there a need for such timeline?
Of course there is, how else would the timelines make sense?

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:56 am

Doctor. wrote:
ahill1 wrote:Is there a need for the existence of a timeline to where Mirai Trunks [from Cell's timeline] travellled to? Many people assume that when Mirai Trunks got to kill the androids "somehow" in Cell's timeline, there was another timeline he travelled to and supposedly got the blueprints there so he could destroy them. I even know that this timeline is made clear in the Daizenshuu, but as far as the manga goes, is there a need for such timeline?
Of course there is, how else would the timelines make sense?
1st timeline: Goku defeats Freeza and Cold, dies of heart virus, everybody except Trunks are killed by #17 and #18(Gohan after several years of course). Trunks goes back in time, kills Freeza and Cold and gives the medicine to Goku. 3 years/8months later he goes back again, but doesn't return. #17, #18 and Cell are alive and Cell might become Perfect here with no one to oppose him!

2nd timeline: Trunks(1st T) kills Freeza and Cold, gives Goku the medicine and returns 3 years later. Things go as in the main timeline, but there is no Cell, so for whatever reason Kami doesn't merge with Piccolo(in the main timeline he held out on merging with him until he noticed Cell's presence) and the RoSaT isn't suggested. The androids end up killing everyone(including Future Trunks) and maybe even get Gohan as well, leaving only Trunks. Thus with no one to influence Bulma to do stupid things to satisfy others' fight boners, she instead decides to find out a way to destroy them with technology and installs this same mindset in Trunks.
They find the blueprints somehow and destroy the twins. With that taken care of Bulma wants another timeline, where all their friends are alive, so she sets the time machine to 1 year before Freeza's arrival on Earth, either to have Trunks kill off Dr. Gero or inform Bulma, as Goku isn't around to influence anything and maybe Vegeta would be busy training.
Of course Cell interrupts this plan, kills Trunks and presses Go, oblivious to the original intention of selecting that specific year(and Piccolo also completely guessed wrong, because he's a dumbass).

3rd timeline: The main timeline, an offshoot of the second timeline and by my logic, there would need to be 4th timeline, as Trunks(1st T) in his return trip travels back to a time before his second trip, but I guess we could head-canon it, as the timeline being overwritten *shrug*

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Doctor. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:11 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
ahill1 wrote:Is there a need for the existence of a timeline to where Mirai Trunks [from Cell's timeline] travellled to? Many people assume that when Mirai Trunks got to kill the androids "somehow" in Cell's timeline, there was another timeline he travelled to and supposedly got the blueprints there so he could destroy them. I even know that this timeline is made clear in the Daizenshuu, but as far as the manga goes, is there a need for such timeline?
Of course there is, how else would the timelines make sense?
1st timeline: Goku defeats Freeza and Cold, dies of heart virus, everybody except Trunks are killed by #17 and #18(Gohan after several years of course). Trunks goes back in time, kills Freeza and Cold and gives the medicine to Goku. 3 years/8months later he goes back again, but doesn't return. #17, #18 and Cell are alive and Cell might become Perfect here with no one to oppose him!

2nd timeline: Trunks(1st T) kills Freeza and Cold, gives Goku the medicine and returns 3 years later. Things go as in the main timeline, but there is no Cell, so for whatever reason Kami doesn't merge with Piccolo(in the main timeline he held out on merging with him until he noticed Cell's presence) and the RoSaT isn't suggested. The androids end up killing everyone(including Future Trunks) and maybe even get Gohan as well, leaving only Trunks. Thus with no one to influence Bulma to do stupid things to satisfy others' fight boners, she instead decides to find out a way to destroy them with technology and installs this same mindset in Trunks.
They find the blueprints somehow and destroy the twins. With that taken care of Bulma wants another timeline, where all their friends are alive, so she sets the time machine to 1 year before Freeza's arrival on Earth, either to have Trunks kill off Dr. Gero or inform Bulma, as Goku isn't around to influence anything and maybe Vegeta would be busy training.
Of course Cell interrupts this plan, kills Trunks and presses Go, oblivious to the original intention of selecting that specific year(and Piccolo also completely guessed wrong, because he's a dumbass).

3rd timeline: The main timeline, an offshoot of the second timeline and by my logic, there would need to be 4th timeline, as Trunks(1st T) in his return trip travels back to a time before his second trip, but I guess we could head-canon it, as the timeline being overwritten *shrug*
Doesn't make sense, where does our future Trunks come from? There'd still need to be a 4th timeline where our Trunks succeeds and kills Cell.

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by ahill1 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:59 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
ahill1 wrote:Is there a need for the existence of a timeline to where Mirai Trunks [from Cell's timeline] travellled to? Many people assume that when Mirai Trunks got to kill the androids "somehow" in Cell's timeline, there was another timeline he travelled to and supposedly got the blueprints there so he could destroy them. I even know that this timeline is made clear in the Daizenshuu, but as far as the manga goes, is there a need for such timeline?
There isn't, even one(or some can't recall) guidebook only pointed out 3 timelines(Future Trunks', Cell's and the main one).
If we go with your setup from the other thread, namely that Cell himself is from a timeline, that was altered by Trunks killing Freeza and Cold and providing the heart medicine, then we only need the three and can easily headcanon a reason to why that would be, though of course it's just head canon.
I see, but out of curiosity what would be your reason for the lack of need towards such timeline?
Doctor. wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Of course there is, how else would the timelines make sense?
1st timeline: Goku defeats Freeza and Cold, dies of heart virus, everybody except Trunks are killed by #17 and #18(Gohan after several years of course). Trunks goes back in time, kills Freeza and Cold and gives the medicine to Goku. 3 years/8months later he goes back again, but doesn't return. #17, #18 and Cell are alive and Cell might become Perfect here with no one to oppose him!

2nd timeline: Trunks(1st T) kills Freeza and Cold, gives Goku the medicine and returns 3 years later. Things go as in the main timeline, but there is no Cell, so for whatever reason Kami doesn't merge with Piccolo(in the main timeline he held out on merging with him until he noticed Cell's presence) and the RoSaT isn't suggested. The androids end up killing everyone(including Future Trunks) and maybe even get Gohan as well, leaving only Trunks. Thus with no one to influence Bulma to do stupid things to satisfy others' fight boners, she instead decides to find out a way to destroy them with technology and installs this same mindset in Trunks.
They find the blueprints somehow and destroy the twins. With that taken care of Bulma wants another timeline, where all their friends are alive, so she sets the time machine to 1 year before Freeza's arrival on Earth, either to have Trunks kill off Dr. Gero or inform Bulma, as Goku isn't around to influence anything and maybe Vegeta would be busy training.
Of course Cell interrupts this plan, kills Trunks and presses Go, oblivious to the original intention of selecting that specific year(and Piccolo also completely guessed wrong, because he's a dumbass).

3rd timeline: The main timeline, an offshoot of the second timeline and by my logic, there would need to be 4th timeline, as Trunks(1st T) in his return trip travels back to a time before his second trip, but I guess we could head-canon it, as the timeline being overwritten *shrug*
Doesn't make sense, where does our future Trunks come from? There'd still need to be a 4th timeline where our Trunks succeeds and kills Cell.
Yeah, then according to dbgtFO's timelines, there's just a need for the inclusion of future Trunks' timeline (the one he hinted at in his post as possibly existing)... but how does this prove that the Trunks from Cell's timeline should have travelled to another unknown timeline?

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Doctor. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:44 pm

ahill1 wrote:Yeah, then according to dbgtFO's timelines, there's just a need for the inclusion of future Trunks' timeline (the one he hinted at in his post as possibly existing)... but how does this prove that the Trunks from Cell's timeline should have travelled to another unknown timeline?
Because it doesn't make sense otherwise. Cell arrives before Trunks, meaning there are two "present" timelines: one where Trunks arrived before Cell killed him and ours; just like there have to be two "future" timelines: Cell's and Trunks'.

If we reduce it to 3 (Cell's, Trunks' and ours), then you can't explain how two different Trunks arrived at the same timeline considering that Trunks 1's experiences and Trunks 2's experiences have to be different due to the presence of Cell in the "present" timeline.

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by ahill1 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:54 am

Doctor. wrote:
ahill1 wrote:Yeah, then according to dbgtFO's timelines, there's just a need for the inclusion of future Trunks' timeline (the one he hinted at in his post as possibly existing)... but how does this prove that the Trunks from Cell's timeline should have traveI lled to another unknown timeline?
Because it doesn't make sense otherwise. Cell arrives before Trunks, meaning there are two "present" timelines: one where Trunks arrived before Cell killed him and ours; just like there have to be two "future" timelines: Cell's and Trunks'.

If we reduce it to 3 (Cell's, Trunks' and ours), then you can't explain how two different Trunks arrived at the same timeline considering that Trunks 1's experiences and Trunks 2's experiences have to be different due to the presence of Cell in the "present" timeline.
There are more than three timelines, considering besides the three established ones (Trunks', Cell's ond ours) there's one which is pretty much implied within the story through the panel in which Freeza was killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline. I'd see it as there being 4 timelines (future Trunks' [1], Cell's, future Trunks' [2 ], ours)... I am just asking if there's a need to another one to which Trunks (from Cell's timeline) travelled to beforing defeating the androids of his timeline (Cell's imeline). I not seeing how it does. The Trunks from Cell's timeline wished to, probably, create a timeline with the Z warriors all saved, to which he might have thought would have a direct influence towards the Z warriors of his timeline. The existence of a timeline to where Trunks (from Cell's timeline) went for doesn't explain how two different Trunks arrived at the same timeline... actually imo the Trunks that killed Freeza in the main timeline is a parallel of the Trunks that killed Freeza in Cell's timeline... kinf of a split... but the Trunks from the 1st timeline was killed (supposedly) whereas the Trunks from his own timeline managed to succeed and defeat Cell and the androids, so there's still a change.

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by TobyS » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:33 pm

Logically there has to be an “unseen” timeline, bit they are ignoring it recently...
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by KBABZ » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:35 pm

This is how I saw the Timelines as:
If you tot it up there are seven Timelines, however if you cut out "inevitable" ones involving Trunks returning to his future as he intended to, there would be four (listed above as Timelines 1, 2, 2-b and 1-c).

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:29 am

Doctor. wrote:
3rd timeline: The main timeline, an offshoot of the second timeline and by my logic, there would need to be 4th timeline, as Trunks(1st T) in his return trip travels back to a time before his second trip, but I guess we could head-canon it, as the timeline being overwritten *shrug*
Doesn't make sense, where does our future Trunks come from? There'd still need to be a 4th timeline where our Trunks succeeds and kills Cell.
The answer is there, logically yes there has to be 4, but if timelines can be overwritten, maybe not?
ahill1 wrote: There are more than three timelines, considering besides the three established ones (Trunks', Cell's ond ours) there's one which is pretty much implied within the story through the panel in which Freeza was killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline. I'd see it as there being 4 timelines (future Trunks' [1], Cell's, future Trunks' [2 ], ours)... I am just asking if there's a need to another one to which Trunks (from Cell's timeline) travelled to beforing defeating the androids of his timeline (Cell's imeline). I not seeing how it does. The Trunks from Cell's timeline wished to, probably, create a timeline with the Z warriors all saved, to which he might have thought would have a direct influence towards the Z warriors of his timeline. The existence of a timeline to where Trunks (from Cell's timeline) went for doesn't explain how two different Trunks arrived at the same timeline... actually imo the Trunks that killed Freeza in the main timeline is a parallel of the Trunks that killed Freeza in Cell's timeline... kinf of a split... but the Trunks from the 1st timeline was killed (supposedly) whereas the Trunks from his own timeline managed to succeed and defeat Cell and the androids, so there's still a change.
Yeah, the Trunks from Cell's timeline doesn't need to have undergone time travel, before Cell came and took his time machine. I still wonder, if we are ever going to get a definite breakdown of all the timelines like Daizenshuu 7 did, now that Super has established there were 5 in total, before Goku Black and only 1 was implied to be the result of Trunks' meddling.

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Terra-jin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:03 pm

dbgtFO wrote: I still wonder, if we are ever going to get a definite breakdown of all the timelines like Daizenshuu 7 did, now that Super has established there were 5 in total, before Goku Black and only 1 was implied to be the result of Trunks' meddling.
I hope that they'd give us an overview of the rules of time travel. If there's a well-thought out set of rules, then we can follow the logic of all the time travel shenanigans.

For example: when exactly is a new timeline created? Only if one travels to the past? Or after every jump? Or only if a paradox is created?
And how does time flow on the various timelines? At the same rate through all? Or does time stand still from the perspective of other timelines?
And when new timelines are created, is only the affected timeline copied or are all timelines copied as if they were parts of the same 'omniverse'?

Answers to these questions would shed a lot of light on this complex subject.
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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by KBABZ » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:26 pm

Terra-jin wrote:I hope that they'd give us an overview of the rules of time travel. If there's a well-thought out set of rules, then we can follow the logic of all the time travel shenanigans.
My logic on it is that when you do your first Time Travel trip and make a serious alternation, you create a new timeline that diverges off the one you came from, but doesn't chronically affect it in any way. Furthermore, the Time Machine itself is linked to the new Timeline you made, which is why Trunks is able to flip between the two, and why when Cell steals it and goes back further, it doesn't create a third timeline but simply morphs Timeline 2.

(I'll also assume that the assessment I made in my last post over the Timelines in Z was so perfect it didn't warrant anyone making any comments : D)

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Terra-jin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:29 pm

KBABZ wrote:My logic on it is that when you do your first Time Travel trip and make a serious alternation, you create a new timeline that diverges off the one you came from, but doesn't chronically affect it in any way. Furthermore, the Time Machine itself is linked to the new Timeline you made, which is why Trunks is able to flip between the two, and why when Cell steals it and goes back further, it doesn't create a third timeline but simply morphs Timeline 2.
What exactly counts as a serious alteration in your view?

And when Cell goes back further, does that not count as a serious alteration? This wouldn't morph timeline 2, but create a new one if I understand your logic correctly.
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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by KBABZ » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:48 pm

Terra-jin wrote:What exactly counts as a serious alteration in your view?
Dunno, anything more significant than kicking an innocuous rock I suppose.
Terra-jin wrote:And when Cell goes back further, does that not count as a serious alteration? This wouldn't morph timeline 2, but create a new one if I understand your logic correctly.
Yes but he used the same Time Machine that Trunks did, so it's "localized" I guess (can you tell I'm figuring this out myself as we go?). Hmm, maybe it'd make more sense to say that the act of using the Time Machine is what creates the new timeline, since that makes it all easier to manage.

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by ahill1 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:17 am

dbgtFO wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
3rd timeline: The main timeline, an offshoot of the second timeline and by my logic, there would need to be 4th timeline, as Trunks(1st T) in his return trip travels back to a time before his second trip, but I guess we could head-canon it, as the timeline being overwritten *shrug*
Doesn't make sense, where does our future Trunks come from? There'd still need to be a 4th timeline where our Trunks succeeds and kills Cell.
The answer is there, logically yes there has to be 4, but if timelines can be overwritten, maybe not?
ahill1 wrote: There are more than three timelines, considering besides the three established ones (Trunks', Cell's ond ours) there's one which is pretty much implied within the story through the panel in which Freeza was killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline. I'd see it as there being 4 timelines (future Trunks' [1], Cell's, future Trunks' [2 ], ours)... I am just asking if there's a need to another one to which Trunks (from Cell's timeline) travelled to beforing defeating the androids of his timeline (Cell's imeline). I not seeing how it does. The Trunks from Cell's timeline wished to, probably, create a timeline with the Z warriors all saved, to which he might have thought would have a direct influence towards the Z warriors of his timeline. The existence of a timeline to where Trunks (from Cell's timeline) went for doesn't explain how two different Trunks arrived at the same timeline... actually imo the Trunks that killed Freeza in the main timeline is a parallel of the Trunks that killed Freeza in Cell's timeline... kinf of a split... but the Trunks from the 1st timeline was killed (supposedly) whereas the Trunks from his own timeline managed to succeed and defeat Cell and the androids, so there's still a change.
Yeah, the Trunks from Cell's timeline doesn't need to have undergone time travel, before Cell came and took his time machine. I still wonder, if we are ever going to get a definite breakdown of all the timelines like Daizenshuu 7 did, now that Super has established there were 5 in total, before Goku Black and only 1 was implied to be the result of Trunks' meddling.
Yeah, whilst we didn't (at least yet) get a complete breakdown on the timelines issue, Super has at least clarified how many of them there are, right? Sorry that my memory about the Zamasu saga is iffy, but according to Super there were 4 timelines until Zamasu/Black created the 5th one, right? Iirc the timerings represented the amount of timelines, and one of the time rings was created by Zamasu. So, is that a confirmation that the number of timelines in the manga is 4?

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Terra-jin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:25 am

KBABZ wrote:
Terra-jin wrote:What exactly counts as a serious alteration in your view?
Dunno, anything more significant than kicking an innocuous rock I suppose.
Terra-jin wrote:And when Cell goes back further, does that not count as a serious alteration? This wouldn't morph timeline 2, but create a new one if I understand your logic correctly.
Yes but he used the same Time Machine that Trunks did, so it's "localized" I guess (can you tell I'm figuring this out myself as we go?). Hmm, maybe it'd make more sense to say that the act of using the Time Machine is what creates the new timeline, since that makes it all easier to manage.
The most prevalent theory seems to be that only going to the past creates new timelines. That's the rule I assume, as well. It's an exact definition and limits the amount of timelines to a manageable few.

We do need to define "the past" a little more, though. Trunks' second trip goes to 767, but which 767? That of his timeline or the altered one? The former would be in the past, while the latter is in the future. Hence, going to 767 of the altered one does not create new timelines.

This is because the altered one has not caught up to 767 yet at the time of Trunks' second trip. But what year was it exactly at that time? I'd say 765 if we assume that time flows at the same rate on all timelines. If Trunks needed one year to prepare for his second trip, one year also passed in the altered timeline.

So Trunks travels two years into the future of the altered timeline, helping out our heroes. What year would you say it is in his future at this time?
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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:45 am

Terra-jin wrote:We do need to define "the past" a little more, though. Trunks' second trip goes to 767, but which 767?
Easy, the altered one he created from his first trip. Again I personally believe that Trunks' Time Machine hopes back and forth between select timelines and their "latest" variants as described in my earlier post with the 1-as and 2-cs and all that.

---
Terra-jin wrote:So Trunks travels two years into the future of the altered timeline, helping out our heroes. What year would you say it is in his future at this time?
Knowing Trunks, exactly the amount of time needed to charge up the Time Machine.

I don't agree with the "time flow" theory. While DBZ time travel doesn't follow the same rules as, say, Back to the Future, I think one of the more basic rules still applies here. Specifically, that the amount of time it takes on one end has no bearing on when you can show up later. For example, when Trunks says "You can count on seeing me again, in three years time!", I took that to mean that Goku can expect to see him three years from that point in time, not that Trunks would have to wait three years in his future so that he "lines up" with when the Androids first appeared.

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Re: Is there a need for the existence

Post by Terra-jin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:56 am

KBABZ wrote:
Terra-jin wrote:We do need to define "the past" a little more, though. Trunks' second trip goes to 767, but which 767?
Easy, the altered one he created from his first trip. Again I personally believe that Trunks' Time Machine hopes back and forth between select timelines and their "latest" variants as described in my earlier post with the 1-as and 2-cs and all that.
Agreed.
Terra-jin wrote:So Trunks travels two years into the future of the altered timeline, helping out our heroes. What year would you say it is in his future at this time?
Knowing Trunks, exactly the amount of time needed to charge up the Time Machine.

I don't agree with the "time flow" theory. While DBZ time travel doesn't follow the same rules as, say, Back to the Future, I think one of the more basic rules still applies here. Specifically, that the amount of time it takes on one end has no bearing on when you can show up later. For example, when Trunks says "You can count on seeing me again, in three years time!", I took that to mean that Goku can expect to see him three years from that point in time, not that Trunks would have to wait three years in his future so that he "lines up" with when the Androids first appeared.
Would you say that time stands still on his future timeline from the perspective of the altered one? Or vice-versa?
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