Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:38 pm

Hmmmm......... You know, there might just be something else we've missed.

The intense heat.

When Goku was powering up before fighting Kefla, she mentioned that she could even feel the heat from where she was standing. This heat is always permeating around Goku's body, and we always assumed it was just a negative byproduct of the unmastered usage of the Ultra Instinct. But what if...... it wasn't? What if the heat serves its own purpose?

The OP mentions Gohan's fight with Lavenda, how he turns Super Saiyan and radiates his Ki all around to pinpoint the poison-using member of the Trio De Dangers due to the fact that he couldn't rely on his physical or spiritual senses.

Well, maybe the heat emitted when Goku utilizes the Ultra Instinct serves a similar purpose. However, instead of expending Ki like a wild fire, he instead radiates immense heat that permeates himself and his immediate proximity. It could be that this heat is used by his body as a form of sensing opponents without the need for the usual senses or Ki sensing. Changes in heat that a fellow fighter might produce may be predicted by the body's natural reflexes and thus allow it to react with incredible speed and precision. It's basically the natural bodily reflex of pulling one's hand away from a hot surface taken to its anime extreme.

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:23 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Hmmmm......... You know, there might just be something else we've missed.

The intense heat.

When Goku was powering up before fighting Kefla, she mentioned that she could even feel the heat from where she was standing. This heat is always permeating around Goku's body, and we always assumed it was just a negative byproduct of the unmastered usage of the Ultra Instinct. But what if...... it wasn't? What if the heat serves its own purpose?

The OP mentions Gohan's fight with Lavenda, how he turns Super Saiyan and radiates his Ki all around to pinpoint the poison-using member of the Trio De Dangers due to the fact that he couldn't rely on his physical or spiritual senses.

Well, maybe the heat emitted when Goku utilizes the Ultra Instinct serves a similar purpose. However, instead of expending Ki like a wild fire, he instead radiates immense heat that permeates himself and his immediate proximity. It could be that this heat is used by his body as a form of sensing opponents without the need for the usual senses or Ki sensing. Changes in heat that a fellow fighter might produce may be predicted by the body's natural reflexes and thus allow it to react with incredible speed and precision. It's basically the natural bodily reflex of pulling one's hand away from a hot surface taken to its anime extreme.
Heat is just kinetic energy. The heat can just be a result of him having an immense ki that is so strong that can be felt as heat. He's in his base and is able to be on par with several fighters. The heat can be his latent ki in condensed form activated in his base form similar to Ultimate Gohan.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:49 pm

Thing is, we've seen how massive Ki signatures operate untamed, as well as when they're controlled very well. Kefla and Jiren powering up shows just how massive the signatures could get and their environmental effects, and SSB is the result of extreme control over Ki.

It's noted that, DESPITE the immense heat, Goku's energy was frighteningly calm. Apparently, this is NOT normal.

I think it's fairly clear that the heat and overall workings of the Ultra Instinct are quite different than anything we've yet seen. Sure, Ki CAN produce extreme heat, but when it does, it's always been fighters specifically using their Ki to create heat in a focused manner, rather than the Ki itself being particularly hot. Which makes sense, since it's life energy brought out into a usable form and not some kind of plasma as more scientific minds would erroneously theorize.

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:19 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Thing is, we've seen how massive Ki signatures operate untamed, as well as when they're controlled very well. Kefla and Jiren powering up shows just how massive the signatures could get and their environmental effects, and SSB is the result of extreme control over Ki.

It's noted that, DESPITE the immense heat, Goku's energy was frighteningly calm. Apparently, this is NOT normal.

I think it's fairly clear that the heat and overall workings of the Ultra Instinct are quite different than anything we've yet seen. Sure, Ki CAN produce extreme heat, but when it does, it's always been fighters specifically using their Ki to create heat in a focused manner, rather than the Ki itself being particularly hot. Which makes sense, since it's life energy brought out into a usable form and not some kind of plasma as more scientific minds would erroneously theorize.
Powering up is a way to release all the ki at once. However, a person who has learned to control their ki and condense it, can lead to much "hotter" ki. When Kefla and Jiren powered up, everyone could feel it and it was destroying things, blowing away stuff, etc. Goku's doesn't seem to do this implying that his ki isn't leaking as much and is more controlled.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by shaun2306 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:36 pm

Dragon ball characters have been massivley ftl in combat since dragonball, Manga has proved it many times so saying dbz characters are now ftl in dbs is a lie. e.g kid goku did dodge solar flare, freeza death beams been proved to be ftl too.

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by shaun2306 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:40 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:24 pm
The first explanation of Migatte no Gokui aka Ultra Instinct came from Whis in three different sources - Episode 18 of the anime, Chapter 2 of the Revival of F (RoF) manga, and the RoF movie.

Whis says, “By the time sensations pass through your five senses to your brain and are then transmitted back to your body, precious time has been lost. Ideally what you want is for each part of your body to react, respond and move of its own accord…”

Whis talks about sending signals to the brain and back to the body. To dodge a punch, your eyes must see it, the image of that punch has to be processed into your brain and a decision has to be made whether to block, dodge, parry, etc. A human that decides what action must be taken based on this information. All this time thinking and processing in the brain is time that is wasted. However, even if you reduce all this time to 0, there is also the time it takes for a signal to travel from the brain to the muscle.

Want to know how fast that actually is? The average time it takes for this to happen is about 20-30 ms to the upper extremity and 35-50 ms to the lower extremity. However, if fighters are throwing punches and kicks at faster-than-light (FTL) speeds, 20 ms is too long of a time to dodge.
In reality, our brain sends a signal to our spinal cord which sends a signal through a nerve to a muscle to move a specific part of our body. These times have been measured and it has been reproducable in several studies that are published today in peer-reviewed journals. We can stimulate regions of the brain using transcranial magnetic stimulation and move specific regions of the body like a thumb or toe. (I do this in my lab in real life.) The time from stimulation to movement is the latency. However, this is not the case for all movements. Sometimes, the spinal cord can send a signal to a muscle directly without the brain. Even the fastest reaction time 5-10 ms, is still too slow! FTL speeds are above 300,000 m/s while the fastest conductance velocity of a nerve measured is about 70-75 m/s. Our nerves are limited by its conductance which is based on the myelin sheath that surrounds it. Think of a wire with electricity flowing inside it. The thickness, length, and the material the wire is made out of all contribute to how fast electrons can move inside of it. For nerves, it's the same thing, so we cannot change the nerves conductance properties. We are born with it! In case you need proof that characters in DBS are FTL, it was told to us in the DBS manga that Jiren can move faster than a spaceship to travel to a planet. The speed of an average spaceship in DB has already been calculated before: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25990 Note that all previous assertions that claimed characters were FTL had no proof. It is not until Jiren's statement we had direct infallible proof.

Therefore, for the sake of the DB verse which is a fantasy, we have to assume that the delay is actually 0 ms! That is, the body moves by itself instantly with no input from the brain at all! This is what is colloquially known as "muscle memory". In real life, muscles can't store memory. It's our brain that stores it but through repetitive action and practice, we react faster which gives the illusion that the body moves on its own. If we agree to this, this allows any person regardless of their opponent's strength and speed, to dodge any attack because 0 ms will always be faster as it is instantaneous. Therefore, a weaker person like Roshi who in Chapter 39 of the manga was shown to dodge Jiren's punches, was still able to do so. Obviously, Roshi wasn't using UI, as Whis said himself, "It's a far cry from UI", but its principles are similar. The whole point of Roshi vs Jiren was to demonstrate the utility of UI and show that it's not a power or speed boost. It's a reaction time boost. To give you an example, if Jiren and UI Goku were to race each other in a 100 m dash, Jiren should still win because he's still faster in raw speed. On the contrary, if Jiren and Goku have to press a button when a light turns from red to green, Goku would press it faster because there's no delay for him to react. That is the difference between speed and reaction time. Please do not get them mixed up!
When Whis talks about “It’s because you’re both thinking before you act”. In real life, our brain is always active whether you like it or not; you can't simply remove it from the circuit; it’s part of alive. Even in a coma, there is small electrical activity of the brain. The definition of "thinking" varies but in cognitive psychology, Sigmund Freud defined thinking occurring in three different levels - conscious, subconscious, and unconscious. If we use Sigmund Freud's definition, then it's quite impossible to stop thinking unless the brain is dead. The truth is that we waste too much time deciding what to do consciously that it is faster to react unconsciously. However, unconscious is really where you are knocked out like in coma and the body doesn't move. It is much more likely that ultra instinct occurs at the subconscious level. The reason I say this is because Goku, Beerus, and Whis are still shown to be partially conscious and even talking while in UI. Subconscious allows you to still be partially awake. In fact, in Chapter 39 of the manga, Whis confirms that it is the subconscioius state so this theory is confirmed! Sleepwalking and dreaming all occur subconsciously. Your dreams are just a manifestation of random memories in the subconscious. Thinking causes a delay and this limits speed. In Naruto, when Rock Lee gets drunk, his reaction speed and movements get faster, why? The alcohol is causing sedation which is limiting is ability to think consciously hence his body is just reacting on its own. It's almost the same thing. This is the basis of what ultra instinct is about why Whis wants Goku and Vegeta to achieve it.

Image

So if we still need the brain, can we reduce reaction time and still teach our body and muscles to react on their own? You can, by practicing a specific response to a specific stimulus over and over. This is what is done in martial arts where a single move is practiced thousands of times, even if that move is simple – until that move is natural. This state of mind in martial arts is known as Mushin. The reason this works is that the brain is forming synapses between neurons and hard-wiring this specific movement. Normally, the first time you learn something, the brain sends a signal between neurons, but the strength of the connection between neurons is weak. The more you do it, the stronger that connection becomes until it is natural. This is how memory is encoded in our brain. The notion of “muscle memory” is false. The muscles themselves do not contain any memory, your brain does. However, the term developed because through practice, reaction time was faster which gave the illusion that one is not thinking and just reacting. You’re still thinking as the brain still needs to send a signal to your muscles to move. The only difference is that it’s subconscious and your body will react on its own without you consciously having to give it instructions to do so. The brain is still involved.

Image

Ok, so that explains the "defensive" portion of UI where a fighter can continually dodge any attack. What about the "offensive" portion? This is where we need to discuss the "heat". A blue energy surrounded Goku and Whis calls this "heat". Heat in science is just kinetic energy. Hence, in this case, it would be the kinetic energy that is generated from moving instinctively while in UI. When Goku closes his eyes, that is when he relies less on thoughts and thus, he moves more instinctively, creating more heat. Eventually, he has enough to form the shape of a galaxy. He then absorbs this energy to get Mastered UI (MUI). This DID result in an increase in power for Goku, not just faster reaction time. This allowed Goku to also boost his offense. Additionally, with the aid of dodging any attack, Goku can now land any hit at any location, leading to critical strikes. He did this in the anime against Kefla, by Kamehameha surfing, dodging all of Kefla's attack and landing a critical hit to Kefla's face.

Image

Whis has already shown to use ultra instinct when he was sparring with Goku and Vegeta, instinctively dodging and blocking their attacks without even looking at them. Beerus in the manga was shown to also do this though he hasn’t fully mastered it. Neither Whis nor Beerus had any indication of a transformation or physical changes. For Goku, there are distinct physical changes seen like silver eyes and the aura called “heat”. Initially, we had thought that these physical changes were a result of absorbing the Spirit Bomb but then they were seen again. These physical changes may be exclusive to saiyans or it is the author's way of depicting to the audience that he's using ultra instinct. The "heat" can be explained by the fact that ki is energy and kinetic energy is heat. Then, as Goku achieved MUI, Beerus stated, "That form, that glow". This is when all the Hakaishin stood up. It can be assumed then, that MUI does indeed have physical changes with with a unique aura that can be manifested even if a non-Saiyan achieves it. We have yet to see Beerus or Whis use MUI. All we know is that Angels do possess MUI.

Image

What if questions:

1. What if two people with MUI fight each other? What would be the result?
2. What if Hit used Time Lag against an opponent with MUI? Can the person with MUI still dodge?
Source for nervous system speeds: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5209850/
Source for the definition of conscious and unconscious thinking: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/co ... is-thought
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... n-thinking
LIke i said db characters have been massivlely ftl in combat since dragonball (manga has shown).
2. going on place to another place flying is travel speed not combat speed
by your logic bruce lee loses to bolt in a fight because bolt is faster then bruce lee in travel speed.
3. No proof of dbz characters of being ftl in combat is a lie if you read the manga of db,dbz you would know they are

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:20 am

shaun2306 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:40 pm
LIke i said db characters have been massivlely ftl in combat since dragonball (manga has shown).
2. going on place to another place flying is travel speed not combat speed
by your logic bruce lee loses to bolt in a fight because bolt is faster then bruce lee in travel speed.
3. No proof of dbz characters of being ftl in combat is a lie if you read the manga of db,dbz you would know they are
Way to bump a 2-year old thread.

1) You're mistaking travel speed and reaction time. FTL, traveling to another place, etc. is not the same thing as the time it takes for signals to travel in a nerve. Characters in DB verse can travel FTL for sure but that's not the point here. The point here is reaction time - the time it takes for the brain respond and then send a signal to the body. This is the speed we are talking about. Based on actual real life, we know how fast it takes for signals to travel to any extremity. This doesn't change by exercising - your nerves have the same conductance regardless of how much you work out. Bolt is a runner - he's moving his legs to move from point A to point B, travel speed. Bruce Lee is moving his body in response to his environment which involves a lot of complex thinking. I have no idea why you believe that it is the same thing. It also has absolutely nothing to conclude that a person who runs fast can suddenly react fast in a fight and also know martial arts.

2) I don't think you understand what I mean by proof. I mean infallible mathematically proven, not an interpretation. We can now mathematically prove that there are characters that are FTL due to Whis and Jiren. Is Freeza's deathbeam FTL? Where does it say it? How can you prove it? As a casual watching DB, I also used to believe that a simple dodonpa or kamehameha was at the speed of light, and dodging it meant FTL, but albeit that was an assumption. Before, many calculations were based on assumption and opinion such as Goku traversing half the circumference of Namek when that was never stated at all in the manga. Whis is obviously FTL traveling to different planets without the use of a spaceship in minutes. Jiren has also been stated to be faster than a spaceship literally in the manga.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by Tsufuru » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:32 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:02 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:See, that's where I and others disagree.

The ability to even produce Ki from one's Genki should be impossible if we base things ENTIRELY on real-life principles. I'm not saying you don't have the right idea, just that you may be taking it to too much of a logical extreme that the show itself would likely never stoop to. The quote itself specifically talks about how slow the speed is of the brain sending signals to the rest of the body, that the different parts of the body themselves are what need to be trained to move independently. Applying the exact real-life biology likely isn't what's being factored in when Toriyama first introduced the idea into his franchise's world.

And if the parts of the body themselves are what are being trained to react without any input from the brain, then the senses aren't necessarily gonna be needed to determine things. For example, at the speeds at which everyone in the show fights at, there shouldn't be any sound or the perception of it whatsoever. Yet they can still perceive sound because that's one of the caveats that's accepted for the sake of the show's own consistency. It could very easily be that the Ultra Instinct has similar caveats.
You are free to disagree. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I like to use real world science to explain phenomenon seen in anime, comics, and tv shows as much as I can without contradicting the original author. So far, I haven't said anything that contradicts what Whis or Akira Toriyama has said.

Also, vibration sense is part of the touch pathway called dorsal column medial lemniscal. They can perceive sound even if they are moving faster than the speed of sound because each time the body makes contact, vibrations are felt.

The body is still moving on its own but you cannot take the brain out of the equation because information about the external environment is still needed. If Goku is able to use ultra instinct without sight, sound, smell, or touch, then I can believe your theory in that the brain is not needed. Instinct is dependent on the other 5 senses to predict and respond to a future outcome based on current information. It's not an independent sense.
whis said they have to completly let their body move on its own with UI.
thats the part where Toriyama stopped using real life logic and went into his basic just becouse writing.

you dont have to post a huge text to explain it.
its simple.
they dont only use their eyes to dodge punches , popo teached goku to feel the air around him if some1 moves and they also use ki sensing to fight.
UI simply gives them the ability to dodge without the need to see , sense or feel the air around them.
their body actualy moves on its own anything else would make UI pointless , becouse some1 faster than you will still hit you at one point , he gonna have it harder than without UI but he still gonna be able to hit you.
with complete UI he wont thats why i believe when goku masters UI at will , Toriyama is gonna make the future villians be able to use UI or have something against it.

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:36 pm

Tsufuru wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:32 am
whis said they have to completly let their body move on its own with UI.
thats the part where Toriyama stopped using real life logic and went into his basic just becouse writing.

you dont have to post a huge text to explain it.
its simple.
they dont only use their eyes to dodge punches , popo teached goku to feel the air around him if some1 moves and they also use ki sensing to fight.
UI simply gives them the ability to dodge without the need to see , sense or feel the air around them.
their body actualy moves on its own anything else would make UI pointless , becouse some1 faster than you will still hit you at one point , he gonna have it harder than without UI but he still gonna be able to hit you.
with complete UI he wont thats why i believe when goku masters UI at will , Toriyama is gonna make the future villians be able to use UI or have something against it.
I think you're missing the point of the post. I know that real life logic and science is not being used in DB or by AT. I'm using it simply because I want to since it's my field. It's what I do in my lab - stimulating the brain, measure latencies, reaction times, reflexes, etc. The body cannot move on its own to dodge without external input from the environment. Of course it's not just eyes - when did I ever say it was? It's a combination of multiple senses. Popo taught Goku many things, not just to feel vibrations in the air but ki. That's exactly what I said. UI is not simply dodging without seeing - if that's what you think it is, then you missed the point of UI also in the story. It's about having no hesitation or time wasted from thought to action. The body moves on its own without being instructed to, not simply to dodge but also to attack and minimize unnecessary movements in the process.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:35 am

This is an incredible post.

You based this off the manga, but my question is about the anime: If LB Jiren was able to hit MUI Goku, just how fast would his reaction time be to actually surpass MUI? how much faster than his regular dressed self's reaction time?

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by emperior » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:27 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:35 am
This is an incredible post.

You based this off the manga, but my question is about the anime: If LB Jiren was able to hit MUI Goku, just how fast would his reaction time be to actually surpass MUI? how much faster than his regular dressed self's reaction time?
Actually Jiren is able to hit Goku once in the manga and manages to grab his leg too, so Jiren is that crazy fast in both mediums.
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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:25 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:27 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:35 am
This is an incredible post.

You based this off the manga, but my question is about the anime: If LB Jiren was able to hit MUI Goku, just how fast would his reaction time be to actually surpass MUI? how much faster than his regular dressed self's reaction time?
Actually Jiren is able to hit Goku once in the manga and manages to grab his leg too, so Jiren is that crazy fast in both mediums.
Something I noticed in the anime is that Jiren managed to catch UI Goku the first few times by using blasts. The first time, he overpowered his Kamehameha quickly, whilst the second time he sent back Goku's own Ki blast to knock him into the air and make him vulnerable to follow-up attacks.

After that, his very last hit was a kick, and that one seemed to be entirely on his own without needing to piggyback off of Goku's attacks.

While I doubt it's the case, this COULD indicate that a UI user's own Ki attacks might not be recognized as threats, and thus the body doesn't dodge or guard against them.

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:16 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:35 am
This is an incredible post.

You based this off the manga, but my question is about the anime: If LB Jiren was able to hit MUI Goku, just how fast would his reaction time be to actually surpass MUI? how much faster than his regular dressed self's reaction time?
That's a great question and actually I had asked myself this as well! I tried to simulate something like this with math. I used the distance a punch travels and the time it takes to perform it as well as incorporated the time it takes for a signal from the brain to the body. I was going to collaborate with some youtubers like Oppai Senpai, BecauseScience, or SSJScience to tell a bit about it more. I might edit my post in the future to show how one in fact, how fast the reaction time would need to be to surpass MUI. Thanks for reading!
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Theory of Ultra Instinct using Science

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:13 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:16 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:35 am
This is an incredible post.

You based this off the manga, but my question is about the anime: If LB Jiren was able to hit MUI Goku, just how fast would his reaction time be to actually surpass MUI? how much faster than his regular dressed self's reaction time?
That's a great question and actually I had asked myself this as well! I tried to simulate something like this with math. I used the distance a punch travels and the time it takes to perform it as well as incorporated the time it takes for a signal from the brain to the body. I was going to collaborate with some youtubers like Oppai Senpai, BecauseScience, or SSJScience to tell a bit about it more. I might edit my post in the future to show how one in fact, how fast the reaction time would need to be to surpass MUI. Thanks for reading!
Awesome, I'll be waiting for it. Perhaps it'd be better off with it's own thread IMO.

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