If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

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If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:21 am

Suppose Goku accidentally left Zeno's button at Bulma's house thus they would've had to fight, ultimately losing because they had exhausted their power and Zamasu's new form barrages the Earth to destruction. Now that he is free to travel the cosmos as an abstract being as well as Zeno remaining blissfully unaware of his presence, just who would step forth and stop Zamasu?
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:47 am

No one would stop him.

Anime Infinite Zamasu was an etheral 4th dimensional being that had merged with the very fabric of the Universe and was spreading across the entire Multiverse and into other timelines. Had he been allowed to continue spreading his twisted energy, he would have become an omnipresent being, taking over all of reality (so all possible timelines and multiverses). The power of the fusion between Goku Black and Future Zamasu had expanded to no end. Infinite Zamasu was immortal, so not even the Gods of Destruction could get rid of him, no matter how strong their energy is. Most likely Infinite Zamasu would avoid invading Zeno's Palace, since it is actually found in Outer Space (so it isn't in any of the 12 universes) and it is the seat of the Omni-king and the Grand Priest. But just take the amount of destruction Zamasu unleashed on Earth; he turned the entire planet into a desolate wasteland in an instant, shocking everyone who witnessed it. Even Supreme Kai and Gowasu didn't know how they could possibly defeat such an immensely powerful entity. Heck, even Whis and Beerus felt Infinite Zamasu, and they were on their planet. Zamasu's power was so great and malicious that it made Whis' skin tingle.

Manga Infinite Zamasu again was immortal, so no Hakai or any other trick the Gods of Destruction have. But this version of Infinite Zamasu didn't take over the Universe, instead it consisted of an endless army of immortal Fused Zamases each having the same exact massive power. This immortal army cannot possibly be stopped, you would have to destroy every single cell in every single Fused Zamasu that comprises this army, and as we've seen before, you cannot completely destroy an immortal being, and each one of these Fused Zamases is immortal. Manga Infinite Zamasu states that he would hunt Goku through time if he had to, since he had learned how to time travel to -any- point in history thanks to the Supreme Kai of Universe 12.

Ultimately, i don't know what Infinite Zamasu would have done had he been allowed to conitnue his growth in power and size. Infinite Zamasu, both the anime and manga incarnation, was among the strongest enemies Goku and co. have ever faced. Even Goku and co. couldn't defeat him, as a matter of fact. His potential had no limits, his power had no end. I assume manga Infinite Zamasu, retaining his sanity and intellect, would begin building his utopian world after all opposition in the Future timeline has been crushed. Anime Infinite Zamasu was just insane, a rabid beast devoid of any logic and sanity, so he would probably try to destroy all mortals left in the entire Multiverse and laugh maniacally for the rest of his existence.

Like, it's ridiculous when you think about it. Anime Infinite Zamasu was spreading throughout the Multiverse and into alternate timelines in an instant. Astonishing.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by sintzu » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:58 am

No one would. I'd like to see something like that happen aagin but instead of bringing Zeno in they have to get the strongest characters from each universe to help fight with them.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Cetra » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 am

The answer is it would still have been Zenou. The Hakaishin and Tenshi would not let themselves be killed Zamasu so they would call the Daishinkan who would call Zenou. It would just not be Mirai Zenou but one of the Past Zenou. And Zamasu would at this point already be existent everywhere else so the Past Zenou would not even need to reach the Alternate Future to see that. The only option would be that Zamasu is smarter and kills the Kaioushin before the Hakaishin and Tenshi can do something. But Beerus and Whis already felt him so it is not like they would wait before he actually floats above them. And even if they could not do anything, there is no reason for the Daishinkan to not feel Zamasu's presence, even if Zenou himself is oblivious.

Zamasu is the typical JRPG villain. They lose after 5 minutes of winning or 5 minutes before they win. And because he is a JRPG villain he also realistically cannot be defeated. "He is immortal but Zenou can erase him" is pseudo-semantic crap. If Zenou erases him out of existence he is dead nonetheless. After erasing his consciousness is gone and his body is biologically no longer functioning, the inverse of being alive is reached in both psychological and physical terms, so erasing or not, immortality should prevent from that happening. Sure one can say "Zenou can ignore immortality on a logical level" but I would just have done something like Zenu lifting off the immortality so "he does not even destroy an immortal one in the first place".
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Lionel » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:33 pm

The manifested spirit of Zamasu wasn't spectral. When the Saiyan group launched their collective attacks at the expanding mass you could make out distortive ripples of substantiality. In turn, Infinite Zamasu's attacks carried a very real, very impactful detriment not only to the characters but to the entirety of the planet and universe. You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time. I think if given the opportunity and means to fight, the Saiyans could have potentially dealt with Zamasu. Both Shin and Gowasu should have been capable of materialising more earrings for them. If a time intermission takes place between each fusion then they could have teleported away to another planet. From there they either consult with other celestial figures like Zuno to find out how to defeat Zamasu or wait until the time lapse has expired and fusion can be attempted once more. No matter what Infinite Zamasu would be liable to come into contact with someone powerful enough to oppose him. If he's retained enough of his sensibility to bypass Zeno's palace then it would only be a matter of time before his expanding essence comes into contact with the Pride Troopers of Universe 11. Jiren may not be Zeno but he could likely obliterate huge swathes of Zamasu's essence all the same. Remember when the collision between SSJG Goku and Beerus was purportedly endangering the universe itself? Yeah, the best hope for the multiverse then would be Jiren.

You might ask how it's possible to destroy a spirit being. Well I don't recall anyone questioning the destructibility of Baba's Ghost Usher. Another interesting occasion was cited at Yemma's desk when he described how Raditz had attempted to stage some resistance. Well it's unlikely he would have retained his body since he was a deeply evil being -- that can only mean Yemma subdued a spirit entity. Zamasu should theoretically have the same fallibility, immortal or not.

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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:36 pm

Unless they can somehow use the Mafuba on the entire Universe or learn Zen-Oh's 'Erase' technique, they cannot deal with Infinite Zamasu.

Goku Black also mentioned that he had destroyed several civilizations prior to invading Earth, so maybe he was referring to 'weak' universes like Universe 4 or 9, who would barely trouble Black. So the various universes wouldn't be in their prime, unlike Infinite Zamasu.
You might ask how it's possible to destroy a spirit being.
No, i am asking how it's possible to destroy an immortal being.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:47 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Unless they can somehow use the Mafuba on the entire Universe or learn Zen-Oh's 'Erase' technique, they cannot deal with Infinite Zamasu.

Goku Black also also mentioned that he had destroyed countless civilizations prior to invading Earth, so maybe he was referring to 'weak' universes like Universe 4 or 9, who would barely trouble Black. So the various universes wouldn't be in their prime, unlike Infinite Zamasu.
You might ask how it's possible to destroy a spirit being.
No, i am asking how it's possible to destroy an immortal being.
I'm sure an Angel could perform a technique to entrap Zamasu in either his abstract being or multiple clones, Whis is a pretty good example in that he has such power as to manipulate U7's flow of time somewhat. The question is would Zamasu be able to kill each Kaioshin before the Hakaishin & Angels make their move?
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:40 pm

Considering that Zamasu was immortal, and by the time shit got really bad, his power and influence had spread across the multiverse and was even infecting other timelines, I don't believe anyone other than Zeno could have stopped him.

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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Black Hawk » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:07 pm

Going by the manga's adaptation of the climax of the Zero Mortals Plan, Jiren (and perhaps some of the destroyer deities and the guide angels) likely could have overpowered each individual Zamas (and perhaps even many of them at a time), but, if they kept regenerating and multiplying, eventually, they would have worn Jiren down, no matter how long that might take. Given Future Zamas' implication that no timeline other than the "main" one contained any appreciable threats to the Zero Mortals Plan, it seems that "main" timeline Jiren was the only mortal who stood a chance of defeating a Merged Zamas, let alone destroying one or taking on an army of them. As Zamas stated that he'd pursue Gokū and Vegeta through time via Universe Twelve's time machine (and likely the time rings), I believe that, provided no divine intervention takes place, Zamas would have overtaken the entire multiverse in each timeline after some time.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Zillamon51 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:24 pm

Jiren.

I'm sure he can punch hard enough to break reality, or something.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Cetra » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:29 pm

Lionel wrote:The manifested spirit of Zamasu wasn't spectral.
And yet he looked like he was invulnerable.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:01 pm

Monaka would. :mrgreen:
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Lionel » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:52 pm

The destructibility of immortals is a subject that's already been touched upon several times in the past. All of the previous examples were demonstrably proven to be killable. Zamasu's variation of immortality does add a wrinkle to the established idea. Note that it's generally unconventional but not unheard of. Buu's immortality is the closest equivalent to Zamasu's. Both appeared to have infinite-like regeneration which is easily doable with no notable stamina loss. One trait that distinguishes the Shinjin character from the Majin is the former's ki-related insulation that seems to render the flow of ki null in his animated conception. Because of the focus in the FT arc's battles revolving around Goku Black, we never got to see the limits of Zamasu's nonconductivity. At his most decisive moment when Trunks had him in a griplock and was raring to self-destruct in order to kill him, Black intervened before the full outpouring of ki could be realised. Looking at the situation from Black's perspective, what reason would he have to intervene when his long time enemy is practically handing his life over on a silver platter and Zamasu's immortality ensures absolute survival against the devastation? Within the context of the scene, Trunks intended to outpace the limitations of Zamasu's regeneration. Black prevented him from fully executing this manoeuvre of his. I can see the correlation there.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Infinite Zamasu is a different case because by the time he appeared his enemies were already on their last legs with virtually no stamina left -- even at their strongest it still required the Potara Earrings and a planetary empowered spirit sword to overpower his normal state. Because of the limitedness of his exposure to the opposition's power, I'm not going to say that Zamasu was somehow enjoying a level of endurance that equates to a no limits fallacy. We saw how there was a tangible impact on his essence, even if it was just a short lived distortive rippling. It should be principally the same as Buu's regeneration and immortality. It only takes a single remaining particle for him to reconstitute his entire body. To fully kill him you need to obliterate each and every single molecule of his being; that should be it. You can't regenerate from nothingness. The manga's rendition of the Future Trunks arc already played with this idea.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Nothing contradicted the threats from Vegeta and Vegetto. Zamasu himself was within earshot of the claim and he didn't bother to contend it. In the case of Vegetto, it took a convenient authorial inspired diffusion and depowering of the protagonists to keep them from making good on their declaration. If Zamasu's immortality was so effective why not have the fight continue and build upon the air of futility in our heroes' efforts to destroy him? Vegetto would eventually defuse anyway. The imposition of Zamasu's immortality could be elaborated on further by having him surviving the best Goku and Vegeta have to dish out.

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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 am

Looking at the situation from Black's perspective, what reason would he have to intervene when his long time enemy is practically handing his life over on a silver platter and Zamasu's immortality ensures absolute survival against the devastation?
Black didn't want Trunks to die, he needed him to become stronger. Trunks explains this better in the manga. Black could've killed him whenever he wanted to. He chose to keep him alive to use him as punching bag. Indeed, we saw in the next episode that Black sent Future Zamasu to kill Bulma because he wanted Trunks to get stronger so that he himself could grow in power.
To fully kill him you need to obliterate each and every single molecule of his being
How? I understand your point, but i find it hard to believe Goku, Vegeta, Jiren or any other mortal have the strength to completely obliterate an immortal and omnipresent being. I mean, in the manga, Beerus himself, a God of -Destruction-, aknowledged he can do nothing against an immortal being.

Also, Zamasu's immortality was granted by the Super Dragon Balls, so i assume his immortality cannot possibly be countered by a mortal and his regeneration has no end. I mean, Trunks only -speculated- in the anime that Future Zamasu's immortality would have a limit, we don't know if Trunks was correct on that regard. And Infinite Zamasu merged with the Universe, so you would have to destroy the entire Universe to kill him.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by Lionel » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:34 pm

Both Black and Zamasu had decided on killing not just Goku but Trunks in addition as early as episode 57 once they were defeated in their first fight. Whatever benefits Black was able to glean from Trunks' waning resistance didn't seem to be enough to warrant granting him further reprieve. Plus, with the more powerful Goku and Vegeta available to use as training practice why allow the less efficient instrument of his growth to continue living? There would be greener pastures with the arrival of these two new contenders.

I'm really not sure why Beerus gave that responce to Goku. We saw firsthand the distress and desperation written on Zamasu's face once he began to suffer the effects of Hakai. It was enough to prompt him into using uncouth tactics so he could force Goku into stopping his attack. Plus, as mentioned before, there was no contradiction from Zamasu when Vegeta declared his intent to wipe both him and Black from existence. If the immortality was absolute then idle threats like that would be shrugged off by Zamasu. It would defeat the purpose of his cursing the execution of the Zero Mortal Plan and the falling out with Black as anyone that tries to oppose him, no matter how strong they are, would be unable to annihilate him and he would eventually begin to dominate over them thanks to the apparently limitless stamina that comes packaged with the immortality. Mortal or not the deities are shown to be damageable by whoever. If the immortality was truly indomitable then it wouldn't even be possible to damage Zamasu in the first place. As for the Infinite version, universal destruction was an idea put forth back in the first arc of Super when Beerus and Goku's fists collided. It was spoken of as being a residual effect from the energy that those two were emitting. We know for certain that Jiren is stronger than the Hakaishin so destroying a universe shouldn't be a problem. Also, it's one universe compared against eleven others. I think destroying one is a small price to pay in saving the remainder of the multiverse.

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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:21 pm

Both Black and Zamasu had decided on killing not just Goku but Trunks in addition as early as episode 57 once they were defeated in their first fight. Whatever benefits Black was able to glean from Trunks' waning resistance didn't seem to be enough to warrant granting him further reprieve. Plus, with the more powerful Goku and Vegeta available to use as training practice why allow the less efficient instrument of his growth to continue living? There would be greener pastures with the arrival of these two new contenders.
In ep. 59, Zamasu tells Black not to kill Goku immediately, but to take his time and end him slowly. If Black had just killed Goku in ep. 57, he would've lacked the fodder he needed to increase in strength, so they didn't plan on killing him in ep. 57.

But you are right on the part of Trunks, i actually recalled wrong. Zamasu himself tells Trunks that there is nothing left to gain from him in ep. 64.
I'm really not sure why Beerus gave that responce to Goku. We saw firsthand the distress and desperation written on Zamasu's face once he began to suffer the effects of Hakai. It was enough to prompt him into using uncouth tactics so he could force Goku into stopping his attack.
Goku's Hakai was very slow, not very effective. I mean, Zamasu had the time to aknowledge the gravity of the situation, open a portal, identify Mai, grab Mai through the portal and use her as a shield. So, it is clear that, while Zamasu was clearly suffering from the attack, the attack itself was very slow and Zamasu ultimately exploited this weakness to stop it. But yes, Beerus did claim in the manga that the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings.
Plus, as mentioned before, there was no contradiction from Zamasu when Vegeta declared his intent to wipe both him and Black from existence. If the immortality was absolute then idle threats like that would be shrugged off by Zamasu. It would defeat the purpose of his cursing the execution of the Zero Mortal Plan and the falling out with Black as anyone that tries to oppose him, no matter how strong they are, would be unable to annihilate him and he would eventually begin to dominate over them thanks to the apparently limitless stamina that comes packaged with the immortality
In the anime, Future Zamasu does tell Black that they realized (from the fight in ep. 57) that Goku and the others are no real threat to them.

As for the manga, Zamasu did not doubt his immortality, he doubted Black's ultimate strength. Black recruited Zamasu and assured him that he wielded endless power, so when Black was being stomped by Vegeta, Zamasu realized Black didn't wield ultimate strength and had lied to him. Also, prior to that scene from Chapter 22, Zamasu had repeated several times to Goku that his immortality was flawless, so he didn't doubt the effectiveness of his immortality. The problem is that Zamasu lacked the strength to pose a threat to Goku and Vegeta and so relied on Black's 'ultimate' power. Therefore, when Black was defeated, imagine the shock Zamasu must have felt. His entire plan came crashing down in an instant. He clearly wasn't able to think logically.
If the immortality was truly indomitable then it wouldn't even be possible to damage Zamasu in the first place.
Zamasu is immortal, but not invulnerable to any attack.
Also, it's one universe compared against eleven others. I think destroying one is a small price to pay in saving the remainder of the multiverse
Regarding anime Infinite Zamasu, i wonder if he had taken over only Universe 7 or the entire Future timeline, so all 12 Universes (which would include Universe 11). I think it's the latter, because Zen-Oh said 'A world like this must disappear!' and 'world' usually refers to the entire timeline. So i think that Infinite Zamasu's energy had truly overtaken the entire Future Multiverse, so destroying only one Universe wouldn't have been enough.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:54 pm

His mother.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:33 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:His mother.
His mom is a tree.
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Re: If Goku Never Summoned Zeno, Who Would've Stopped Zamasu?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:56 am

If Goku didn't summon Zeno, then Infinite Zamasu would invade other timelines which would make Zeno and Angels aware of what is going on eventually. Once it has come to their attention, Zeno would intervene and take care of it. Infinite Zamasu is like a virus. Sometimes formatting the hard drive is the only way to get rid of it, which means erasing everything. The Super Dragon Balls are also still there in other timelines (it was destroyed by Black and Zamasu in the future timeline), so it is possible to just unwish Infinite Zamasu into a mortal Zamasu. Then kill him normally.
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