Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

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Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 pm

This came to me as a shower thought... not only is she the first female fighter introduced into the series and the strongest (human) woman, she's the only one with a seriously reputable martial arts background. She's a known practitioner of the Kame Style, she was a finalist in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai with pure ability, and she taught Goten how to fight. #18 may be the most relevant but I never really liked her that much as a fighter... her fighting style is generic and she never had to work hard to get as far as she did... in fact, she doesn't give a shit about martial arts and whatnot. Her powers were basically handed to her. Similar reasons I can't fuck with Caulifla as a fighter either. Even Pan is potentially more interesting.

Videl is cool tho... she's quite strong by human standards and is a genuinely talented fighter that would've been a great asset if she were introduced earlier on in the series. However, she is still Mr. Satan's daughter...

Aside from them, there's Ranfan who was pretty much just a regular human who's strength came from her sexuality and Yurin did train under the Crane School but it's unknown for how long. On all accounts though, it probably wasn't for very long given she was so outclassed by Muten Roshi to the point where she embarrassed herself trying to fight him.

Now if only Toriyama hadn't forsaken her (Chi-Chi)... she could've been something great.

The best shot now is hoping for that super slim chance of her being including as DLC in FighterZ but going by her recent appearances in DBZ games, she'd be lucky to even get in the cutscenes:

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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:47 pm

Ranfan was actually pretty strong, she landed some hits on Nam and dodged his attacks. I'm pretty sure she knows martial arts as well.
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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:48 pm

As of the End of Z, Pan is making her way to being a martial arts expert, but GT distanced her from that direction (although she does know a thing or two as seen in her fighting style). Maybe Super will have her keep the gi?

I agree overall though, Chi-Chi is the most qualified of the cast.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by floofychan333 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:55 pm

Aren't Videl and Android 18 stronger than Chi-Chi?
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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:18 am

floofychan333 wrote:Aren't Videl and Android 18 stronger than Chi-Chi?
Correct, however being stronger doesn't necessarily mean you practiced martial arts. Many of the Budokai competitors don't fall under that like Ranfan or Bacterian. And especially into Z many characters throw punches, kicks and blocks but with a vastly decreased emphasis on technique.

I think Pan might also qualify in her End of Z days, and however long that lasted until she shifted to her GT outlook on things.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:41 am

It sort of depends how you define 'martial artist' in a series like this. Does someone only really count as a martial artist if they use ki? I mean, I'd call Mr Satan a martial artist, and if he counts, then Videl certainly does as well, same with Chi-Chi.

We don't really have a female fighter that is has the balance of ki user and martial arts expertise that male characters like Goku do. At least not at the start: Videl and Chi-Chi were both skilled martial artists, but Videl at least learned basic ki control from Gohan. That might actually put her above Chi-Chi, especially since Ch-Chi's glory days were long behind her by then. On the opposite side, Android 18 was all power and ki with no apparent skill at first, but I think she may have learned martial arts from Krillin during the seven-year timeskip between Cell and Buu. It doesn't really come up much since the few times we see her fight since then, she mainly relies on unlimited energy and ruthless pragmatism. And then there's Pan, who had all the makings of being a legit martial artist with the power to back it up before GT ruined her.

I...guess Yurin might count as a mix, but who even cares. Caulifla and Kale definitely fall into the 18 camp, but I think the former was starting to learn from fighting with Goku. It's hard to tell what was going on there thanks to Whis' funny-buggers commentary. Caulifla had ki control good enough to go Super Saiyan 2 from basically knowing how to focus her energy in the right place, but was also flummoxed by a simple after-image.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Pantalones » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:57 am

Chi-Chi has probably had the most formal martial arts training of the female cast. Videl most likely has trained a lot in her younger years, what with fighting in the tournament's youth division before and all, but she never trained under a master like Roshi (or a student of one of the masters, like the Ox King was) so she falls a bit short there.

#18 most likely comes up second seeing how she's picked up moves (like the Kienzan) from Krillin. Krillin never fought her, so he had to have shown the technique to her at some point during their relationship after Cell was gone -- if he'd teach her an advanced technique like that, I imagine he'd show her more of the basics too. Plus, I figure Dr. Gero somehow programmed martial arts knowledge or enhanced fighting skills into the Androids the same way he gave them knowledge of who Goku, Vegeta, etc. are... he was watching Goku and company during at least one Budokai, after all, so he'd have plenty to go on. I can't imagine an unskilled teenage punk being able to put up such a good fight against somebody like Piccolo even if they did have equal power, or knowing just how much to hold back to humiliate Vegeta without accidentally killing or crippling him. #17 and #18 are obviously much more skilled fighters than random juvenile delinquents would be, even if they did suddenly get millions of times stronger. Still, I suppose they wouldn't be "real" martial artists as much as the rest of the cast thanks to some of their skill being programmed in rather than learned through training and experience.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 am

I think the distinction is most clearly made by King Piccolo: he sets out to murder every significant martial artist on the planet, and yet never identifies himself as being one despite exceeding Goku in strength.

I also don't consider Mr. Satan a martial artist; with his love of the belt, he's more like a wrestler to me.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Michsi » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:36 am

Yeah, Chichi is technically the only one with formal martial arts training. #18 had power and battle prowess installed in her, not to mention that ki is an important part of martial arts and the androids don't use that. Videl said that she taught herself how to fight. The fact that she had no idea what ki was, even as a concept, shows she is not really a martial artist. Also, I don't think Videl is stronger or even as strong as Chichi. I think people base that idea on the fact that Videl learned how to fly and Chichi didn't, but I think Chichi just never bothered to, same as Muten Roshi.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:09 am

Michsi wrote:The fact that she had no idea what ki was, even as a concept, shows she is not really a martial artist.
I actually disagree here. Ki is a useful tactic, however once you go beyond simple endurance management and into relying on ki blasts almost entirely like in Z, you've moved past it. For example, the concept of even detecting somebody's ki isn't introduced until the late King Piccolo arc, and the only two known ki-based moves at the time were the Kamehameha and the Dodon-pa.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Michsi » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:31 am

KBABZ wrote:
Michsi wrote:The fact that she had no idea what ki was, even as a concept, shows she is not really a martial artist.
I actually disagree here. Ki is a useful tactic, however once you go beyond simple endurance management and into relying on ki blasts almost entirely like in Z, you've moved past it. For example, the concept of even detecting somebody's ki isn't introduced until the late King Piccolo arc, and the only two known ki-based moves at the time were the Kamehameha and the Dodon-pa.
I'm not referring to ki blast, but the notion of ki in general. Ki (or chi or qi, depending what romanization you prefer) just means "life force" and is a basic martial art concept, even in real life. Dragon Ball just took the idea and aggrandized it over time. Gohan had to explain to her that every living thing has ki, something that a trained martial artist would've already known.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:42 am

Michsi wrote:I'm not referring to ki blast, but the notion of ki in general. Ki (or chi or qi, depending what romanization you prefer) just means "life force" and is a basic martial art concept, even in real life. Dragon Ball just took the idea and aggrandized it over time. Gohan had to explain to her that every living thing has ki, something that a trained martial artist would've already known.
Ah okay. Well, in the Dragon Ball sense of the word, I don't think it would have been something that, say, Roshi taught to Goku and Krillin in their training.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Michsi » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:53 am

KBABZ wrote:
Michsi wrote:I'm not referring to ki blast, but the notion of ki in general. Ki (or chi or qi, depending what romanization you prefer) just means "life force" and is a basic martial art concept, even in real life. Dragon Ball just took the idea and aggrandized it over time. Gohan had to explain to her that every living thing has ki, something that a trained martial artist would've already known.
Ah okay. Well, in the Dragon Ball sense of the word, I don't think it would have been something that, say, Roshi taught to Goku and Krillin in their training.
Probably because they were already familiar with it. Muten Roshi wasn't their first martial arts teacher. Goku learned the basics from his grandfather, Krillin from his time at the temple. By the time they got to Muten Roshi, they should've already known about something that is so intrinsic to martial arts.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:32 am

floofychan333 wrote:Aren't Videl and Android 18 stronger than Chi-Chi?
#18 is, but not Videl. The only thing she has over Chi-Chi is she can fly and that's it.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:15 pm

Being the daughter of Mr. Satan or not, Videl is a talented martial artist. Gohan himself even comments on it during their time leading up to the tournament. And remember, just because Mr. Satan is a pushover compared to the main cast, he did legitimately win the 24th World Martial Arts Tournament. Against non-super powered beings, he and Videl have shown they are quite formidable. So I would certainly label Videl as a martial artist.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:43 pm

Michsi wrote:Probably because they were already familiar with it. Muten Roshi wasn't their first martial arts teacher. Goku learned the basics from his grandfather, Krillin from his time at the temple. By the time they got to Muten Roshi, they should've already known about something that is so intrinsic to martial arts.
I disagree, I felt that Goku performing the Kamehameha on the car was seen as extraordinary, as was Krillin's quick use of it in the 22nd Tournament with no practice. Roshi taking 50 years to master I always interpreted as being because it fires your ki as a massive energy blast.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Michsi » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:41 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Michsi wrote:Probably because they were already familiar with it. Muten Roshi wasn't their first martial arts teacher. Goku learned the basics from his grandfather, Krillin from his time at the temple. By the time they got to Muten Roshi, they should've already known about something that is so intrinsic to martial arts.
I disagree, I felt that Goku performing the Kamehameha on the car was seen as extraordinary, as was Krillin's quick use of it in the 22nd Tournament with no practice. Roshi taking 50 years to master I always interpreted as being because it fires your ki as a massive energy blast.
As I said, ki doesn't mean just energy blast, visible aura when powering up or being able to fly, it's just means 'life force' and its a key concept of martial arts, even in the DB world. The most capable fighters are able to produce enough of it that it can shoot out of their bodies, but the knowledge of ki is not supposed to be exclusive to them. It's basic martial art philosophy, one that Krillin and Goku should've already been familiar with by the time they get to Muten Roshi. As Gohan explained, every living being has ki - had Videl studied martial arts, she would've known this already.

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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:32 pm

What about Vados? She taught Champa Martial Arts.
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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Smilodon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:14 pm

floofychan333 wrote:Aren't Videl and Android 18 stronger than Chi-Chi?
Chi Chi would destroy Videl easily...Videl is durable and can fly, but Chi Chi has the Senin style. You can't compare.
A18 is in another level, Chi Chi is like a worm against A18.
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Re: Out of all the female characters, Chi-Chi is the only real martial artist?

Post by Smilodon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:16 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:What about Vados? She taught Champa Martial Arts.
Vados is probably the strongest female character in dragon ball at all...The only doubt is her skills/power against her sisters. But she started to be stronger than Whis and she seems to be the older one, so she must be the most skilled and more powerful of all female angels...
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