At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

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Analytical Delusion
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At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:05 am

A lot of the fights in the DB franchise end up boiling down to who is stronger, though abilities, tactics, and techniques do seem to count for more in the battles that are closer.

Let's consider everyone in the series who has had a major fighting role. Put them all at the same level of strength, in the peak of their ability, and throw transformations in-battle out the window (including power-ups, since the defeats the purpose here). Who are the best fighters?

No need to rank *everybody*, just go as deep as you're interested. I'll get to mine later in the thread, would be interested in hearing from others first.

Some preliminary thoughts:

• I think Goku and Beerus (based on the manga) will both figure pretty high into a list, if and when they achieve complete Ultra Instinct. Goku can't activate the ability at will however, and Beerus hasn't mastered it yet either.

• Buu's regeneration is a huge deal. The only two people who proved capable of destroying him were Goku with a Genki Dama (which either did so because it was incredibly strong, or because of the properties of the genki) and Vegetto (who was likely many times stronger than Buu). He also has very good stamina (Goku and Vegeta observed that only when the Buus were fighting each other, did one of them, namely Mr. Buu, show fatigue).

• Based on Super, the barriers that 17 and possibly 18 have are pretty incredible, have very high durability, and can be used offensively. I'm not sure if it's a result of 17 training, because otherwise, there's probably more that Cell could do with his barrier as well. 17 and 18 also have unlimited stamina.

• Guldo's telekinesis was pretty effective on Gohan and Kuririn who were stronger than him at the time (his time freeze might also be more effective against opponents at the same strength). Chiaotzu also had proficiency against Kuririn who was of similar strength or slightly stronger, as did Shin against Gohan. Freeza used the ability with success, but it was consistently against weaker opponents.

• Hit is intriguing, I guess a lot of it depends on knowledge. You need someone who can survive the first few strikes, figure out what's going on, and come up with a plan to counter him. At the same strength, this is difficult.

• Future Zamasu's immortality (which seems to come with some broken form of regeneration) probably puts him close to the top of this list. I think vs a Buu with a brain, he could lose a fight (though he can't die obviously).

• Some of it is plot armor, but purebred Saiyans seem to have pretty incredible durability. Particularly in Super, Goku and Vegeta can take a ton of damage. Really, the only time purebred Saiyans have died or been knocked out in the series are against people who are many times stronger, or when they let their guard down completely. I don't know if this applies to half-breeds as well, but Gohan and Trunks seem to have less tanking ability (maybe this is less true).

• Namekians and Cell do have some degree of regeneration, which is more than most others can say, however neither seems particularly durable. In a close fight, that might be an issue.

• Poisoning can really throw someone off, so people with that ability (Lavender, and if you count it for him, Frost), are at an advantage. We saw what happened to Gohan, it can really be debilitating.

• Lastly, Roshi has a ton of techniques, and won against several significantly stronger opponents in the Tournament of Power. If the battle is 2-on-2 or 3-on-3, he'd be a huge asset. Some of his success was due to the format of the tournament, however (no flying, and elimination by ringout).

I guess some of the fighters I mentioned didn't have major fighting roles in the series, so maybe they shouldn't count for the purpose of the thread. You guys can count whoever you want though, the more opinions the merrier.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Lionel » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:42 am

So we're counting abilities in general and not martial arts aptitude exclusively? Well in that case I would have to side with Buu. His magical abilities are hands down some of the greatest seen from anyone in the show. No one at equal levels appears to be capable of taking him down because of his nigh indomitable stamina and regeneration. Some others like Zamasu and the cyborgs have similar qualities, but they lack in certain departments like anatomical morphing capacities and magically active powers. Beerus could possibly defeat him if he used Hakai, but that would be his only window.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:45 pm

Lionel wrote:So we're counting abilities in general and not martial arts aptitude exclusively? Well in that case I would have to side with Buu. His magical abilities are hands down some of the greatest seen from anyone in the show. No one at equal levels appears to be capable of taking him down because of his nigh indomitable stamina and regeneration. Some others like Zamasu and the cyborgs have similar qualities, but they lack in certain departments like anatomical morphing capacities and magically active powers. Beerus could possibly defeat him if he used Hakai, but that would be his only window.
Well when I started making this thread, I intended for the discussion to be about martial arts ability and tactics. The issue is, a lot of what some of these fighters do is based on their special abilities. Piccolo for instance will take into account his regeneration, or at times his ability to stretch his arms when formulating a strategy. I don't think Buu uses much strategy, but from the little we did see, he has his regeneration in mind, as well as his ability to separate parts of himself from his body. Same with the androids and their stamina, or Zamasu and his body, or Freeza considering blowing the planet up since he can breathe in space.

If it's purely about martial arts ability and tactics, I think it's pretty tough. I think it is likely Goku because he can teleport (and has UI to some extent). Rest of the top 5 or top 10 would be difficult.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Lionel » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:17 pm

I sort of alluded to this in another topic but if it the notion of most skilled were limited strictly to martial arts aptitude then I may have to side with Hit. His Dim Mak carries some of the dangerous and effective applications, at least in theory it does. You can strike at certain nerve regions of the body and it would induce harsh effects like limb numbness and respiratory trauma. You can attack in a good number of areas like behind the ears, the jugular notch, suprascapular nerves, eyes, carotid artery, and as a result you could induce different effects that would be crippling to the opponent. What limits the potency of Hit's style is the creative need to play to age-old conventions like a new rival dominating the old guard and becoming the new top-cat on the scene.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:28 pm

The Angels.
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:02 pm

In terms of pure martial arts skill, the Grand Priest, Whis and the rest of the angels would obviously be number 1. They're the only ones so far who have mastered Ultra Instinct. Afterwards, you'd probably have Goku, Beerus and the rest of the Gods of Destruction (with Jiren perhaps, though he seems to be lacking in terms of skill) who have all managed to tap into Ultra Instinct but not mastered it. Goku Black (the anime one, at least) has the potential to be top the list as well, considering he has Zamasu's martial arts prowess along with Goku's instinct; perhaps there's even a chance he can tap into UI as well since Goku did it. Super Boo has Piccolo's knowledge and skill along with Boo's near indestructibility so he'd be a very tough fighter to deal with (same with future Zamasu because of his invincibility on top of his knowledge and martial arts skill as a Kaio). Hit's fighting style seems basic, but due to his Time-Skip, he's able to contend with much stronger fighters, so he'd also be one of the best. Some of the humans have showcased, on occasion, skill that even surpasses Goku. Kuririn comes to mind, who, even before his Super portrayal as a strategist and his feats of defeating Gohan and forcing Goku to go Super Saiyan, was a very technical fighter, being able to outwit Goku in the 22nd tournament, Piccolo in the 23rd and Nappa in the Saiyan arc; considering, however, that he almost lost to Guldo, I'd hesitate to put him above some of the other characters. Cell has some of the best DNA, but in his Perfect Form, he always seemed a bit dumb in battle; he was more strategic in his first forms, but never did much that could be considered impressive. Still, his regeneration is impressive. Finally, Vegetto would obviously provide the best of Goku and Vegeta, especially if it's a "current" fusion. Provided the fusion time is permanent, he'd be second only to the Angels.

Grand Priest / Angels
Vegetto (w/ UI)
Goku / Beerus / Any other character with a version of UI
Super Boo (w/Gohan and Piccolo) / Zamasu / Cell
Hit / Goku Black
Kuririn
Piccolo / Roshi / Tenshinhan
Vegeta
Everyone else

Something like this. Ultra Instinct fighters first, then the fighters who are virtually indestructible, then the characters with difficult techniques to counter or have the potential for improvement, and then everyone else is ranked based on skill.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:23 pm

Fused Zamasu. He has Zamasu's supreme immortality and superb immortality as well as Goku's body, which means he would have Goku's natural instincts and the potential to tap into Ultra Instinct. Also, Zamasu was considered a fighting prodigy and revered as a genius by the Supreme Kais, even though he was just a North Kai. Also, even the Hakai cannot work on an immortal being.
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Pantalones » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:34 pm

I wouldn't put him close to the top in terms of martial arts skill alone (though even the uncontrollably mindless-raging Kid Buu learns techniques on sight and comes up with some neat tricks mid-battle, so Buu wouldn't be close to the bottom in terms of skill either!), but it would be pretty much impossible for most fighters to handle Buu at equal power levels.

First of all, he can turn you into candy, so unless you can avoid it every time or figure out how to deflect it... it's an instant win for Buu. At equal powers there's no chance of a "strongest candy in the universe can beat Buu up, too" situation happening. This would probably count as a win even against immortal opponents like Zamasu, assuming immortality only prevents actually DYING and not just being changed into a different shape -- sure he's not dead, but he's now an immortal donut and he's going to eternally digest in Buu's stomach, so he'll wish he was dead.

And then there's the regeneration and absurd stamina that he has. At equal power, wearing Buu out with ordinary attacks is not an option. Wearing him out by repeatedly blasting him apart is not an option, because you'll grow too weak to blast him apart long before he gets worn down much (if at all.) You'd pretty much need to have a technique that could completely destroy him or seal him away to have any chance of winning. Mafuuba or something similar should work, but your aim has to be perfect and there's a chance of Buu figuring out what's going on and stopping it by destroying the seal or the container (or even just accidentally destroying them.) Building up overwhelming power beyond what you're normally capable of (like Goku's plan to wipe out Kid Buu in SSj3 with a huge full-power blast) is an option, but if you get too worn down from fighting you wouldn't have enough power to do this with normal techniques so something like the Spirit Bomb would be the best option... but that takes too long to use in a one-on-one fight!

Using Hakai to destroy him all at once so he can't regenerate is the only thing that's really guaranteed to work.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:12 am

The angels in both martial arts and abilities.Even if we assume that they can't use hakai(in manga goku learned it and in anime it is implied to be taught by angels) they can still bfr someone like buu.
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by kn83 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:58 pm

When equalized by power, the Grand Priest and his children are still the best fighters.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:24 am

Yeah I think the Daishinkan and the Angels. They've been fighting for very long time, and plus since I'm sure Ultra Instinct is based on the real-life martial art of Mushin, they'd be quite unstoppable. But, they already kinda are even without equal strength. :lol:

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:36 am

I'd still put Buu above the angels because they haven't shown much in the way of raw destructive power, and being overwhelmed by energy is the only way to defeat Buu. I'd say the hakai is the only thing that can beat him at an equal level.

It almost becomes a rock-paper-scissors scenario at that point. Raw power would beat the ones specialising in high durability, which would beat advanced martial arts/precision attacks. That in turn would beat raw power.

To give an example: Beerus beats Buu, Buu beats Whis (what good is Ultra Instinct when your strikes do no damage?), Whis beats Beerus (can't Hakai someone you can't hit, and they can still hit you).

To give a more ridiculous example: Tien beats Cell with the Tri-Beam, since in an equal strength scenario he wouldn't be able to resist it and the raw power would overwhelm him. However Cell would beat Hit, since the combination of Freeza durability and Namekian regeneration would allow him to survive the internal injuries caused by Hit's strikes. Hit in turn would defeat Tien, for obvious reasons. Tien may specialise in technique as well as power, but even in an equal strength scenario, I don't see any of his moves surpassing Hit's.

Chiatozu, on the other hand...

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Hawk9211 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:11 am

Kataphrut wrote:I'd still put Buu above the angels because they haven't shown much in the way of raw destructive power, and being overwhelmed by energy is the only way to defeat Buu. I'd say the hakai is the only thing that can beat him at an equal level.

It almost becomes a rock-paper-scissors scenario at that point. Raw power would beat the ones specialising in high durability, which would beat advanced martial arts/precision attacks. That in turn would beat raw power.

To give an example: Beerus beats Buu, Buu beats Whis (what good is Ultra Instinct when your strikes do no damage?), Whis beats Beerus (can't Hakai someone you can't hit, and they can still hit you).

To give a more ridiculous example: Tien beats Cell with the Tri-Beam, since in an equal strength scenario he wouldn't be able to resist it and the raw power would overwhelm him. However Cell would beat Hit, since the combination of Freeza durability and Namekian regeneration would allow him to survive the internal injuries caused by Hit's strikes. Hit in turn would defeat Tien, for obvious reasons. Tien may specialise in technique as well as power, but even in an equal strength scenario, I don't see any of his moves surpassing Hit's.

Chiatozu, on the other hand...
Angels can still send him to god ki dimension.
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by King13s » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:37 pm

Purely as martial arts to, removing regeneration too in my opinion is a key point here.

I'd actually say Goku, Krillin, and Roshi are high up there. They lived off only technique and style most of their lives.

Hit fucks with time and without power to negate or break that, he wins automatically. As could Majin Buu with his magic.

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:26 am

Goku
Buu
Piccolo
17/18
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by flashback0180 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:40 pm

Kid buu , no competition, he probably can master UI in few mins.

(I'm not including G.O.D's and Angles because they have hax)

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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:07 pm

Minus the gods, it's definitely Goku and Vegeta.
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:33 am

After his display in Super, Gohan takes it..
Every fight he won had in place some kind of tactics, he doesn't need new techniques or make up stupid attack names when he can think up winning tactics on the spot, he defeated Dyspo, the guy was giving golden Freeza, Hit and Goku trouble but Gohan took him down even after Freeza screwed up his initial plan, if Freeza didn't fuck up drain out like that Gohan would still be kicking in the ring..

But seeing Goku's track record, he probably over takes Gohan, Goku does nothing but fight he is bound to be more experienced and that helps a lot in matches like this..
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Hawk9211 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:42 am

Ki Breaker wrote:After his display in Super, Gohan takes it..
Every fight he won had in place some kind of tactics, he doesn't need new techniques or make up stupid attack names when he can think up winning tactics on the spot, he defeated Dyspo, the guy was giving golden Freeza, Hit and Goku trouble but Gohan took him down even after Freeza screwed up his initial plan, if Freeza didn't fuck up drain out like that Gohan would still be kicking in the ring..

But seeing Goku's track record, he probably over takes Gohan, Goku does nothing but fight he is bound to be emore experienced and that helps a lot in matches like this..
I hope you are joking.He doesn't have any special techniques and his tactics were quite lacklustre.He dealt with botamo in a a worst way even though he was nerfed to manga version.His fight with obuni was tanking hits because of his strength and other instances are team work.To this day,his best fight has been against lavenda,in which his strategist side came out of nowhere.
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Re: At equal strength, who are the best fighters?

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:34 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:After his display in Super, Gohan takes it..
Every fight he won had in place some kind of tactics, he doesn't need new techniques or make up stupid attack names when he can think up winning tactics on the spot, he defeated Dyspo, the guy was giving golden Freeza, Hit and Goku trouble but Gohan took him down even after Freeza screwed up his initial plan, if Freeza didn't fuck up drain out like that Gohan would still be kicking in the ring..

But seeing Goku's track record, he probably over takes Gohan, Goku does nothing but fight he is bound to be emore experienced and that helps a lot in matches like this..
I hope you are joking.He doesn't have any special techniques and his tactics were quite lacklustre.He dealt with botamo in a a worst way even though he was nerfed to manga version.His fight with obuni was tanking hits because of his strength and other instances are team work.To this day,his best fight has been against lavenda,in which his strategist side came out of nowhere.
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