Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Dbzk1999 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:28 pm

I’d say that he’s convientely forgetting that vegeta literally slices through magetta’s Lava at one point
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:19 pm

Speaking of ages, didn’t Toriyama state he chose to set the age of Battle of Gods a couple of years after Majin Boo’s defeat because he felt that was the point the characters were in their prime? Couldn’t that mean they were getting older and growing weaker in GT? Or is SS4 supposed to make Goku reclaim the strength of his prime?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by buutenks » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:53 pm

Well if you are talking PL wise, Super has higher PL.

Base Goku in Super is above ssj3 Gotenks.
Base Goku in GT is also above ssj3 Gotenks, but not to the extent DBS base Goku is since he cant tank hits without even flinching. So Super should have the higher BP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Smilodon » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:14 am

Golden Freeza knocked out Gohan in tournament with one kick.
Gohan was losing against a Yadorat...That Gohan was stronger than Mystic Gohan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Speaking of ages, didn’t Toriyama state he chose to set the age of Battle of Gods a couple of years after Majin Boo’s defeat because he felt that was the point the characters were in their prime? Couldn’t that mean they were getting older and growing weaker in GT? Or is SS4 supposed to make Goku reclaim the strength of his prime?
Toriyama do not count GT in such statements. And he wasn't just talking about Goku and Vegeta. Characters like Krillin, Piccolo and Tien were actually much weaker in GT. Every major character in GT (saiyans and Uub) was much stronger than in Z so that's not the case. Toriyama might also prefered younger bodies with young and well known Trunks and Goten which might be the reason why they didn't change at all. Toriyama pretty much just wanted to make it look like direct Buu saga sequel with no big changes to characters. In GT, everyone was much older.
buutenks wrote:Well if you are talking PL wise, Super has higher PL.

Base Goku in Super is above ssj3 Gotenks.
Base Goku in GT is also above ssj3 Gotenks, but not to the extent DBS base Goku is since he cant tank hits without even flinching. So Super should have the higher BP.
Base Goku in GT tanked SSJ Gohan tho and base GT Gohan was confirmed to be equivalent of Ultimate Gohan in power.
Base Goku in DBS couldn't beat Gohan though and couldn't beat Trunks.

Base form of Goku in GT was overpowered as hell. In DBS, it's prety weak and not much stronger than his DBZ form.
If we talk about forms shared by both versions, i mean base, SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3, then GT Goku is obviously stronger.
The real race start with SSJ4 vs SSJG/B

And while both series use different scaling, remember that base DBS Goku was already struggling against Frieza after 4 months of training
Base GT Goku was beating Frieza after years of training + Cell
And while Golden Frieza is obviously far above GT Frieza, in their 4th forms, at least in RoF arc, GT Frieza could actually win.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:29 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Speaking of ages, didn’t Toriyama state he chose to set the age of Battle of Gods a couple of years after Majin Boo’s defeat because he felt that was the point the characters were in their prime? Couldn’t that mean they were getting older and growing weaker in GT? Or is SS4 supposed to make Goku reclaim the strength of his prime?
Toriyama do not count GT in such statements. And he wasn't just talking about Goku and Vegeta. Characters like Krillin, Piccolo and Tien were actually much weaker in GT. Every major character in GT (saiyans and Uub) was much stronger than in Z so that's not the case. Toriyama might also prefered younger bodies with young and well known Trunks and Goten which might be the reason why they didn't change at all. Toriyama pretty much just wanted to make it look like direct Buu saga sequel with no big changes to characters. In GT, everyone was much older.
When you say Saiyans you mean only Goku, right? Because even Vegeta seemed to retire from his battle suit. Actually, I remember to have only seen he training to get SS4. Not to mention Gohan and the others.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by majinwarman » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:08 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Speaking of ages, didn’t Toriyama state he chose to set the age of Battle of Gods a couple of years after Majin Boo’s defeat because he felt that was the point the characters were in their prime? Couldn’t that mean they were getting older and growing weaker in GT? Or is SS4 supposed to make Goku reclaim the strength of his prime?
Toriyama do not count GT in such statements. And he wasn't just talking about Goku and Vegeta. Characters like Krillin, Piccolo and Tien were actually much weaker in GT. Every major character in GT (saiyans and Uub) was much stronger than in Z so that's not the case. Toriyama might also prefered younger bodies with young and well known Trunks and Goten which might be the reason why they didn't change at all. Toriyama pretty much just wanted to make it look like direct Buu saga sequel with no big changes to characters. In GT, everyone was much older.
buutenks wrote:Well if you are talking PL wise, Super has higher PL.

Base Goku in Super is above ssj3 Gotenks.
Base Goku in GT is also above ssj3 Gotenks, but not to the extent DBS base Goku is since he cant tank hits without even flinching. So Super should have the higher BP.
Base Goku in GT tanked SSJ Gohan tho and base GT Gohan was confirmed to be equivalent of Ultimate Gohan in power.
Base Goku in DBS couldn't beat Gohan though and couldn't beat Trunks.

Base form of Goku in GT was overpowered as hell. In DBS, it's prety weak and not much stronger than his DBZ form.
If we talk about forms shared by both versions, i mean base, SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3, then GT Goku is obviously stronger.
The real race start with SSJ4 vs SSJG/B

And while both series use different scaling, remember that base DBS Goku was already struggling against Frieza after 4 months of training
Base GT Goku was beating Frieza after years of training + Cell
And while Golden Frieza is obviously far above GT Frieza, in their 4th forms, at least in RoF arc, GT Frieza could actually win.
I don't think GT fourth form Freeza could be beat DBS fourth form Freeza. DBS Freeza trained before he fought Goku while GT Freeza mostly didn't. I do not think that GT final form Freeza has grown much stronger since Namek. While, DBS final form Freeza has been shown to clearly to have grown stronger in both in his final form and in his Golden Freeza form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: When you say Saiyans you mean only Goku, right? Because even Vegeta seemed to retire from his battle suit. Actually, I remember to have only seen he training to get SS4. Not to mention Gohan and the others.
All saiyans. Vegeta was slightly stronger than Baby Gohan and Gohan alone was stated to be at least equal to Ultimate Gohan from Z.
Base Vegeta was also fighting on par with Hell Fighter 17 even though he said that 17 "powered up beyond belief" compared to original 17 from Z.
At the time of Super 17 saga, Vegeta SSJ was already doing better than Majuub even tho Majuub was stronger than Goku SSJ3 from previous arc so he trained a lot.
Goten and Trunks could easily beat Pui Pui, Yakon and Android 19 in base forms.
Base Gohan was fighting with Rildo who was stronger than Buu, while DBZ Gohan didn't have a smallest chance against any from of Buu without his Ultimate form, even SSJ2 was useless.
majinwarman wrote: I don't think GT fourth form Freeza could be beat DBS fourth form Freeza. DBS Freeza trained before he fought Goku while GT Freeza mostly didn't. I do not think that GT final form Freeza has grown much stronger since Namek. While, DBS final form Freeza has been shown to clearly to have grown stronger in both in his final form and in his Golden Freeza form.
Image

Cell clearly states they were training in hell. Training had to be long enough for them to master a new technique.
Besides, GT follows anime continuity meaning everyone saw Goku's fight with Buu and they wouldn't challenge Goku without being sure they could beat SSJ3 Goku from Buu saga. But they were surprised how strong his base form was at this point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by buutenks » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:54 am

Again, base saiyans in super>>ssj3 Gotenks. So I don't see how they are any different from GT.

Also, FF Freeza is as strong as ssg Goku according to ToP arc. So he finger flicks GT Freeza.

At best ssj4 is around the ssg PL or maybe even blue. But evolved blue and kkx20 blue are far above that. That is not even mentioning UI or Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:26 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: When you say Saiyans you mean only Goku, right? Because even Vegeta seemed to retire from his battle suit. Actually, I remember to have only seen he training to get SS4. Not to mention Gohan and the others.
All saiyans. Vegeta was slightly stronger than Baby Gohan and Gohan alone was stated to be at least equal to Ultimate Gohan from Z.
Base Vegeta was also fighting on par with Hell Fighter 17 even though he said that 17 "powered up beyond belief" compared to original 17 from Z.
At the time of Super 17 saga, Vegeta SSJ was already doing better than Majuub even tho Majuub was stronger than Goku SSJ3 from previous arc so he trained a lot.
Goten and Trunks could easily beat Pui Pui, Yakon and Android 19 in base forms.
Base Gohan was fighting with Rildo who was stronger than Buu, while DBZ Gohan didn't have a smallest chance against any from of Buu without his Ultimate form, even SSJ2 was useless.
The problem is that everyone besides Goku was doing real life stuff. I only saw Vegeta training in the Evil Dragons Arc, for example. How could they become stronger? Fighting criminals/space thugs, lecturing, working in a office, taking daughter to the mall, dating with girls? If anything they got softer. If you actually pay attention, Vegeta from GT is completely different from DBS. It seemed like his obsession with surpassing Goku took a huge blow and he focused on spending time with his family. You can see by his new look.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by t0ffe3m4n » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:39 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Firebolt wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
I'm almost certain Gohan didn't say this. The only think I can think of similar to this is Gohan saying Tagoma could be hiding power close to his own which was mistranslated to his all time best, which clearly was false as Tagoma/Ginyu lost to a rusty ssj Gohan.
I've rewatched the episode and there's no such quote, my bad. I believe it could have been from the movie though.

Anyway, like other people have said, Base Vegeta beat SSJ3 Gotenks without even trying, so that should give you an idea of how strong Super characters are compared to GT characters.
overall I do think GT characters are weaker. Imo ssj4 Goku is around initial SSG Goku or current ssj3 Goku, while ssj4 Gogeta is around Blue kaioken Goku level.
Na, no way. At the very least you could argue that SSJ4 Gogeta would be on roughly the same footing, if not slightly stronger, than Vegito Blue. Let's not try and put Super's Goku in the same league as Gogeta here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:45 pm

t0ffe3m4n wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
Firebolt wrote:
I've rewatched the episode and there's no such quote, my bad. I believe it could have been from the movie though.

Anyway, like other people have said, Base Vegeta beat SSJ3 Gotenks without even trying, so that should give you an idea of how strong Super characters are compared to GT characters.
overall I do think GT characters are weaker. Imo ssj4 Goku is around initial SSG Goku or current ssj3 Goku, while ssj4 Gogeta is around Blue kaioken Goku level.
Na, no way. At the very least you could argue that SSJ4 Gogeta would be on roughly the same footing, if not slightly stronger, than Vegito Blue. Let's not try and put Super's Goku in the same league as Gogeta here.
I mean considering there are people who think current base Goku is stronger than ssj4 Gogeta, what I'm saying isn't crazy at all, lol.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by kn83 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:07 pm

t0ffe3m4n wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
Firebolt wrote:
I've rewatched the episode and there's no such quote, my bad. I believe it could have been from the movie though.

Anyway, like other people have said, Base Vegeta beat SSJ3 Gotenks without even trying, so that should give you an idea of how strong Super characters are compared to GT characters.
overall I do think GT characters are weaker. Imo ssj4 Goku is around initial SSG Goku or current ssj3 Goku, while ssj4 Gogeta is around Blue kaioken Goku level.
Na, no way. At the very least you could argue that SSJ4 Gogeta would be on roughly the same footing, if not slightly stronger, than Vegito Blue. Let's not try and put Super's Goku in the same league as Gogeta here.
Even if you assume GT's base power levels are equal to Super's, SSJG alone has been confirmed to be stronger than SSJ4 in the Battle of Gods guides. SSB is at least 50x SSJG so its no contest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:25 pm

kn83 wrote: Even if you assume GT's base power levels are equal to Super's, SSJG alone has been confirmed to be stronger than SSJ4 in the Battle of Gods guides. SSB is at least 50x SSJG so its no contest.
SSB was confirmed to be less than a 10x multiplier in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by t0ffe3m4n » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:52 pm

If we're going to take the video games into consideration, there's some interesting lines of dialogue in Xenoverse 2.

Both Beerus and Whis are impressed with Super Saiyan 4 and both Goku & Vegeta refer to it as their 'ultimate form'.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by kn83 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:46 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
kn83 wrote: Even if you assume GT's base power levels are equal to Super's, SSJG alone has been confirmed to be stronger than SSJ4 in the Battle of Gods guides. SSB is at least 50x SSJG so its no contest.
SSB was confirmed to be less than a 10x multiplier in the manga.
That's the manga, the anime has different scaling. Plus, SSB was official described as a SSJG going SSJ in the RoF guides. SSJ is officially a 50x multiplier. Connect the dots.

Besides, the SSB in the manga version of the Champa arc was early SSB, not Mastered SSB in the Black arc, which is likely a 50x boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:07 pm

kn83 wrote: That's the manga, the anime has different scaling.
I know, but there is no conformation of SSB being a 50x multiplier in the anime
Plus, SSB was official described as a SSJG going SSJ in the RoF guides.
Ok? And in the RoF continuity SSG was 60% of Beerus and SSB was still weaker than Beerus, meaning it should of been less than a 2x multiplier in RoF.
Not to mention that same explanation applies to the manga.
SSJ is officially a 50x multiplier. Connect the dots.
Yep, and ssj is also a 50x multiplier in the manga, and SSB is SSG going ssj in the manga as well, so there is no difference there.
Besides, the SSB in the manga version of the Champa arc was early SSB, not Mastered SSB in the Black arc, which is likely a 50x boost.
If you are talking about Vegeta's current SSB form in the anime, I would agree that's probably at least 50x SSG.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:12 pm

kn83 wrote:Even if you assume GT's base power levels are equal to Super's, SSJG alone has been confirmed to be stronger than SSJ4 in the Battle of Gods guides. SSB is at least 50x SSJG so its no contest.
Which guide are you talking about? Can you provide a source link?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by kn83 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:22 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
kn83 wrote: That's the manga, the anime has different scaling.
I know, but there is no conformation of SSB being a 50x multiplier in the anime
Plus, SSB was official described as a SSJG going SSJ in the RoF guides.
Ok? And in the RoF continuity SSG was 60% of Beerus and SSB was still weaker than Beerus, meaning it should of been less than a 2x multiplier in RoF.
Not to mention that same explanation applies to the manga.
SSJ is officially a 50x multiplier. Connect the dots.
Yep, and ssj is also a 50x multiplier in the manga, and SSB is SSG going ssj in the manga as well, so there is no difference there.
Besides, the SSB in the manga version of the Champa arc was early SSB, not Mastered SSB in the Black arc, which is likely a 50x boost.
If you are talking about Vegeta's current SSB form in the anime, I would agree that's probably at least 50x SSG.
If SSB is the equivalent to a SSJG going SSJ, and if SSJ is a 50x boost, then SSB would logically be a 50x boost (in DBSuper, not the movies that use that retconed god scale from 2013). Logic 101. SSB being less than a 2x boost is ridiculous.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:10 pm

kn83 wrote: If SSB is the equivalent to a SSJG going SSJ, and if SSJ is a 50x boost, then SSB would logically be a 50x boost (in DBSuper, not the movies that use that retconed god scale from 2013). Logic 101. SSB being less than a 2x boost is ridiculous.
You think what you are saying is logical, but it seems you don't understand how variables can affect things. A god form going ssj may not have the same affect. It's basically the mixing of ssj ki with ssg ki, that doesn't automatically mean that ssg gets a 50x multiplier. Maybe it does maybe it doesn't, but you are assuming it has the same multiplier when there is no reason to think that. And SSB being less than a 2x boost isn't that far fetched considering how insignificant ssj is compared to SSG. And it's not like I came up with that. It was flat out stated by Whis himself that Beerus used 70% of his power to beat SSG Goku in BoG. RoF is a sequel to BoG. Whis said if Goku and Vegeta worked together they could possibly beat Beerus in RoF. This also lines up with Toriyama's scale he gave for the movies. Super did change this, but SSB was less than a 2x boost in the movies going off direct statements from Whis and Toriyama. though SSB wasn't really a boost, it was more of a replacement at that point.
Last edited by dragon boss z on Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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