Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:08 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote: I never suggested they were comparable to Zeno's power. Beerus and Goku could have disintegrated all of the planets and stars and such in the universe and left it empty but Zeno could wipe out the whole thing with a snap of his fingers. Zeno is much more impressive.

And Beerus did have an attack that would have destroyed the universe by itself (not like Zeno but still crushed everything) but he cancelled it out.
I didn’t say you suggested that, but Tsufuru claimed SSG and Beerus could wipe out an universe with 3 normal punches.

I think it’s worth to point that highly dense energy was generated by Beerus’ and Goku’s third clashing. What Beerus did may count as a “nullifying a supposedly universe-crushing energy” feat. Whis also notes that Gods don’t know everything, so they were probably just guessing those clashes could wipe out the entire universe or at minimum the Earth and neighboring planets, like he told to Mr. Satan.
Didn't Whis say that Beerus thought that might be what would happen, but in reality it would wipe out the universe? And Whis said that he himself couldn't stop it? Also the attack caused a blinding light to shine all the way to the Kaioshin planet (although how they can see such things happening in real time from another dimension like that doesn't make much sense to begin with).
He said they didn’t thought SSG would be so strong that a clash between them would threat the entire universe. But since he estimates a minimum damage, I suppose he is not 100% sure what would happen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:26 am

Well isn’t Base Goku (post SSJG powerup) > Super Vegetto Boo saga?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:13 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Well isn’t Base Goku (post SSJG powerup) > Super Vegetto Boo saga?
Some people think that, but the series compares Base Goku only to two Boo Arc characters, SS3 Gotenks and Innocent Boo (faster mode).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:47 am

Hugo Boss wrote:I think it’s worth to point that highly dense energy was generated by Beerus’ and Goku’s third clashing. What Beerus did may count as a “nullifying a supposedly universe-crushing energy” feat. Whis also notes that Gods don’t know everything, so they were probably just guessing those clashes could wipe out the entire universe or at minimum the Earth and neighboring planets, like he told to Mr. Satan.
The narrator stated the highly dense energy ball would've destroyed the entire universe.

There's no arguing or getting around this, just denial.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:54 am

The Monkey King wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I think it’s worth to point that highly dense energy was generated by Beerus’ and Goku’s third clashing. What Beerus did may count as a “nullifying a supposedly universe-crushing energy” feat. Whis also notes that Gods don’t know everything, so they were probably just guessing those clashes could wipe out the entire universe or at minimum the Earth and neighboring planets, like he told to Mr. Satan.
The narrator stated the highly dense energy ball would've destroyed the entire universe.

There's no arguing or getting around this, just denial.
I thought the narrator said that their attacks in general were threatening to destroy the universe.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by PFM18 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:27 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Well isn’t Base Goku (post SSJG powerup) > Super Vegetto Boo saga?
Some people think that, but the series compares Base Goku only to two Boo Arc characters, SS3 Gotenks and Innocent Boo (faster mode).
Well no the very very Suppressed Beerus was compared to Vegetto and said to be weaker so it is really 3 characters. Then SSG Goku fought equally with a more powered up Beerus. And how do you figure that Buu was only a "faster mode" In dragon ball, with the exception of Dyspo, if your speed increases then your strength also increases, that is just how power works and it wasn't really shown that his increase was limited to his speed. Goku said he got faster but usually that also means your strength increases and Goku didn't say that this wasn't the case for Buu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by PFM18 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:28 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Well isn’t Base Goku (post SSJG powerup) > Super Vegetto Boo saga?
I don't have him that strong after the initial fight with Beerus, I have him between Base and SSJ Vegetto and by the end of the series I have him between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Vegetto in Base.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:40 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
The Monkey King wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I think it’s worth to point that highly dense energy was generated by Beerus’ and Goku’s third clashing. What Beerus did may count as a “nullifying a supposedly universe-crushing energy” feat. Whis also notes that Gods don’t know everything, so they were probably just guessing those clashes could wipe out the entire universe or at minimum the Earth and neighboring planets, like he told to Mr. Satan.
The narrator stated the highly dense energy ball would've destroyed the entire universe.

There's no arguing or getting around this, just denial.
I thought the narrator said that their attacks in general were threatening to destroy the universe.
The narrator also said that Beerus’ full power was putting Goku into a corner, but obviously that wasn’t his full power, so I wouldn’t put much stock on what the narrator says anyway. Whis was more sensible in this case than the elder Kaioshin, when he said the damage would include at least Earth and several neighboring planets and at maximum the entire universe.
PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Well isn’t Base Goku (post SSJG powerup) > Super Vegetto Boo saga?
Some people think that, but the series compares Base Goku only to two Boo Arc characters, SS3 Gotenks and Innocent Boo (faster mode).
Well no the very very Suppressed Beerus was compared to Vegetto and said to be weaker so it is really 3 characters. Then SSG Goku fought equally with a more powered up Beerus. And how do you figure that Buu was only a "faster mode" In dragon ball, with the exception of Dyspo, if your speed increases then your strength also increases, that is just how power works and it wasn't really shown that his increase was limited to his speed. Goku said he got faster but usually that also means your strength increases and Goku didn't say that this wasn't the case for Buu.
I’m not getting what Beerus has to do with this. And it was already clarified Boo’s speed was the only thing specifically noted to have increased with his power being complimented in a separated occasion. I don’t know why you are still insisting on repeating this same argument over and over. You want an example, Katopesla has 3 different forms, one that increases power, one that increases speed and one that increases both. As we saw, speed increases your performance overall, so we can at least assume this form of Boo is a better fighter than the fat Boo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by PFM18 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:38 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
The Monkey King wrote: The narrator stated the highly dense energy ball would've destroyed the entire universe.

There's no arguing or getting around this, just denial.
I thought the narrator said that their attacks in general were threatening to destroy the universe.
The narrator also said that Beerus’ full power was putting Goku into a corner, but obviously that wasn’t his full power, so I wouldn’t put much stock on what the narrator says anyway. Whis was more sensible in this case than the elder Kaioshin, when he said the damage would include at least Earth and several neighboring planets and at maximum the entire universe.
PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Some people think that, but the series compares Base Goku only to two Boo Arc characters, SS3 Gotenks and Innocent Boo (faster mode).
Well no the very very Suppressed Beerus was compared to Vegetto and said to be weaker so it is really 3 characters. Then SSG Goku fought equally with a more powered up Beerus. And how do you figure that Buu was only a "faster mode" In dragon ball, with the exception of Dyspo, if your speed increases then your strength also increases, that is just how power works and it wasn't really shown that his increase was limited to his speed. Goku said he got faster but usually that also means your strength increases and Goku didn't say that this wasn't the case for Buu.
I’m not getting what Beerus has to do with this. And it was already clarified Boo’s speed was the only thing specifically noted to have increased with his power being complimented in a separated occasion. I don’t know why you are still insisting on repeating this same argument over and over. You want an example, Katopesla has 3 different forms, one that increases power, one that increases speed and one that increases both. As we saw, speed increases your performance overall, so we can at least assume this form of Boo is a better fighter than the fat Boo.
Beerus has to do with this because he is used as a measure stick of sorts during this era. I believe this was previously discussed but you said that we only had two comparisons but we have a 3rd which is Beerus. So When Goku lost to this suppressed Beerus he said Fusion wouldn't even be enough to fight this Beerus. Then, he fights evenly with a Beerus that is using much more power and says that he didn't know a world of power like that even exists. So from this we are essentially told that SSG Goku>SSJ Vegetto atleast by a pretty big margin. (or more reasonably SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto.)

Yes the speed was only specifically mentioned but this is Dragon Ball. When your speed increases then so does your strength that is just how it always is. It would make no sense for him to train and not attain a strength boost but instead only a speed boost

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:14 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: I’m not getting what Beerus has to do with this. And it was already clarified Boo’s speed was the only thing specifically noted to have increased with his power being complimented in a separated occasion. I don’t know why you are still insisting on repeating this same argument over and over. You want an example, Katopesla has 3 different forms, one that increases power, one that increases speed and one that increases both. As we saw, speed increases your performance overall, so we can at least assume this form of Boo is a better fighter than the fat Boo.
Beerus has to do with this because he is used as a measure stick of sorts during this era. I believe this was previously discussed but you said that we only had two comparisons but we have a 3rd which is Beerus. So When Goku lost to this suppressed Beerus he said Fusion wouldn't even be enough to fight this Beerus. Then, he fights evenly with a Beerus that is using much more power and says that he didn't know a world of power like that even exists. So from this we are essentially told that SSG Goku>SSJ Vegetto atleast by a pretty big margin. (or more reasonably SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto.)

Yes the speed was only specifically mentioned but this is Dragon Ball. When your speed increases then so does your strength that is just how it always is. It would make no sense for him to train and not attain a strength boost but instead only a speed boost
His question was about Base Goku, not about SSG. Besides, we are not discussing what it was supposed to happen but what the characters actually told us. When that episode aired, I was one of the people that hastily assumed Boo’s power increased, but a member fluent in Japanese explained to me how the sentence was structured and that implication about his power is almost non-existent. So, to be more precise, only the speed increased. But, as I said above, that doesn’t mean Boo’s performance didn’t increase at all, since we clearly have speed being an important factor in the Tournament of Power, specially when Katopesla added the speed boost to his power boost, making Vegeta use Super Saiyan and final flash to beat him, or when Dyspo started to overwhelm Golden Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by EGonzo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:54 pm

Gohan has been training since the end of Resurrection F, though. You see him during the Universe 6 Arc, and arguably at the end of the Black Arc where he says goodbye to Trunks. I really don't know why people keep ignoring that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:05 am

So does any GT fan out there have any proof that DBS < GT? I still can't see any, frankly speaking.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:25 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:So does any GT fan out there have any proof that DBS < GT? I still can't see any, frankly speaking.
It would probably be impossible to 100% prove it either way aside of a direct statement from Toriyama or something.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:42 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:So does any GT fan out there have any proof that DBS < GT? I still can't see any, frankly speaking.
It would probably be impossible to 100% prove it either way aside of a direct statement from Toriyama or something.
I mean, this is what the title suggests, so I'm just interested in the "proof" which they claim there is. Anyways, You can still conclude who's stronger without Akira Saying anything. Even if Akira did say, the controversy will not end because one side will start claiming that the author is wrong and some shit. So even at that, it won't end
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:33 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:So does any GT fan out there have any proof that DBS < GT? I still can't see any, frankly speaking.
It would probably be impossible to 100% prove it either way aside of a direct statement from Toriyama or something.
I mean, this is what the title suggests, so I'm just interested in the "proof" which they claim there is. Anyways, You can still conclude who's stronger without Akira Saying anything. Even if Akira did say, the controversy will not end because one side will start claiming that the author is wrong and some shit. So even at that, it won't end
There isn't any. Most of the GT cast lost their will to train, their lives went other way, Gohan became a teacher and a father of a teenage girl, he hardly trained when he was free as a bird and in constant danger, why would he at peace and with a job and a family to support? wears a suit and glasses 60 of 64 episodes.
Vegeta admittedly stopped chasing Son Goku after the YOU ARE #1 business, and if his word isn't enought, the fact that he hasn't reached SSJ3 in 15 years because he didn't care should be, spends all his day in the house when he is not being Bra's chauffeur.
Goten is all about the girls and Trunks is a boresome CEO who gets excited just by flying around.

Goku is the only one who kept himself fit and was dwarfed literally (according to Toei this was because in Z they were already too strong and decided to take it down a notch)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:39 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Well, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten and Trunks have been implied to have kept up their training though and even in End of Z, Goku instructed them and they agreed. I don't think there's any reason to lie. Still, overall I agree that the GT cast are nowhere near the Super Cast
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by theherodjl » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:28 pm

There's already the fact that SSJG is superior to potara fusion(which in Goku & Vegeta's case was stated by an anime book to rival SSJ4 GT Goku) and the tier of SSJG from the BOG arc is over a hundred times weaker than the power that Goku summons in the ToP. I'm not sure how this can even be a debate even if one were to argue the validity of the potara's strength in context: even Base Vegetto was clearly stronger than Boohan which puts him well above the most likely tier of GT Goku's strength. This level was stated by Goku to be ineffective in dealing with Beerus so where's the actual argument at??
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Rakurai » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:27 pm

theherodjl wrote:There's already the fact that SSJG is superior to potara fusion(which in Goku & Vegeta's case was stated by an anime book to rival SSJ4 GT Goku) and the tier of SSJG from the BOG arc is over a hundred times weaker than the power that Goku summons in the ToP. I'm not sure how this can even be a debate even if one were to argue the validity of the potara's strength in context: even Base Vegetto was clearly stronger than Boohan which puts him well above the most likely tier of GT Goku's strength. This level was stated by Goku to be ineffective in dealing with Beerus so where's the actual argument at??
It seems you ignored my last statement, so let me re-iterate this once again. Buu arc Vegetto was not compared to SSJ4 Goku. Neither the events of the Buu arc nor GT Goku himself were referenced in that passage. The Potara fusion strength boost in general was compared to a SSJ4 transformation. This is clear from the context of the passage.

You're also flat-out wrong in another regard. SSG being superior to Potara fusion is false. Case in point: Kefla. Base Kefla stomped SSG Goku, while SSJ Kefla was said to rival the Spirit bomb stronger than SSB-KKx20 Goku.

Now that I think about it, Goku thought that fusion wouldn't work, which is reasonable but guess what, neither did SSG. The fact that all Jiren, assuming he is as strong as Beerus, needed against against SSG Goku was just one finger, indicates Beerus could've knocked SSG Goku the same way as SSJ3 Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:17 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:
Well, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten and Trunks have been implied to have kept up their training though and even in End of Z, Goku instructed them and they agreed. I don't think there's any reason to lie. Still, overall I agree that the GT cast are nowhere near the Super Cast
I just rewatched EoZ. I wouldn't say they lied, it seemed more like your mom telling you to be a good boy at school every morning, but then you do as you please. In GT they are pretty much the same as they were in EoZ.
We have a 4-yo Pan beating Goten and Gohan not even participating in the Tenkaichi Budokai, so the show itself tells me that if any, they were more on the recreational side of training rather than the real training that Goku does. Goten does train with Goku but he says to Trunks that he was being forced by his dad, girls were already all there was on his mind lol, Trunks enters the tournament also forced by his father. Goku took off for years, without his presence Goten would enjoy going on dates without his father's pressure (he carried that interest all throughout GT), I mean, they hardly trained even when he was around. They just didn't like training anymore, no matter what they answered to Goku as he left them for another kid.

In GT it is certainly not the case, even stated by the characters(that awful episode of Vegeta and Bulma rewatching Goku vs Baby) or shown as how they live now (going on dates, being a CEO, being a father and a professor, staying at home dressed as a regular man and growing moustaches), no one has a fighting gi but Gohan and he wears it only for the last 4 episodes. Vegeta drags the teens and sends them into space because they were slacking off on their training too much.
I would say Vegeta kept training because that's the way he is, but without the thrive he once had. Gohan never liked training, Goten certainly dislikes it since EoZ and Trunks in space is proof enough he didn't even do one push up, he seems more like Bulma than Vegeta, no trace of that kid eager to fight from the Buu arc. And to confirm all of this is the fact that they were all fodder for 64 episodes.

I know that it was implied that they kept training in some GT guides, official or not, is not the manga we are talking about, and if the guide contradicts the show then it makes no sense to take that seriously, only to support certain headcannons. If they draw a guy always sitting on a chair, and the guide says he loves running around and can't keep himself still, then i'm not buying it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:07 am

Koitsukai wrote: There isn't any. Most of the GT cast lost their will to train, their lives went other way, Gohan became a teacher and a father of a teenage girl, he hardly trained when he was free as a bird and in constant danger, why would he at peace and with a job and a family to support? wears a suit and glasses 60 of 64 episodes.
Vegeta admittedly stopped chasing Son Goku after the YOU ARE #1 business, and if his word isn't enought, the fact that he hasn't reached SSJ3 in 15 years because he didn't care should be, spends all his day in the house when he is not being Bra's chauffeur.
Goten is all about the girls and Trunks is a boresome CEO who gets excited just by flying around.

Goku is the only one who kept himself fit and was dwarfed literally (according to Toei this was because in Z they were already too strong and decided to take it down a notch)
Gohan was stated to keep training after Z in Perfect Files.
He was confirmed in interview to come back as Ultimate Gohan (power-wise) to fight Super 17
His base form wasn't much hurt by Rildo's punches even though any non-ultimate version of Gohan had no chance against any version of Buu in Z.
Base GT Gohan was basically Ultimate Gohan from Z in terms of power.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Well isn’t Base Goku (post SSJG powerup) > Super Vegetto Boo saga?
Totally not. It was only said that SSJG Goku is stronger than SSJ Vegito. Well, it wasn't even confirmed. Goku only said that SSJ Vegito wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus and SSJG wasn't enough either, but yeah they probably meant that SSJG > SSJ Vegito (DBZ)
People seem to think that base RoF Goku = SSJG BoG Goku because he absorbed that power, but if it was true, then Goku would easily beat Gohan in base form and wouldn't need SSJ3 to beat Future Trunks.
SSJG Goku, even from BoG saga, would totally stomp both Gohan and Trunks.
Also, SSJ2 Goku would already be enough to beat Beerus but we know it isn't true because SSJG Goku was clearly more than 1% of Beerus.
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