Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> Toyotaro's manga

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Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> Toyotaro's manga

Post by ahill1 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:37 pm

Does the chapter in Toyotaro's manga in which Trunks and Kaioshin fought against Dabura lean towards one point of view? Would that be towards SSJ or SSJ2?

In my opinion it leans towards the latter -- ssj2 -- as Trunks seems to yield the sword as well as Son Gohan did, to which the simplest conclusion to get from that is that Future Trunks (post Z sword) is about the same level as Gohan (post Z sword)... and yet we perfectly see that Trunks is no match for Dabura as a simple SSJ1, and had to make use of SSJ2 to have an edge against the Makaishin... which, all in all, would imply that Dabura is also considerably stronger than SSJ Gohan [post Z sword], who has apparently gotten strong enough to yield the Z sword better than his father did, indicating he ought to be > his father while in same forms...

... wouldn't that then indicate that Son Goku, whilst merely in SSJ1, should also logically be no match for Dabura? And therefore a considerably weaker Son Gohan -- the pre Z sword one -- should be no match either?

Moreover, it's worth noting that Kaioshin was apparently struggling to paralyze Dabura, and said Trunks should hurry up and finish him -- since he wouldn't be able to stop him for too long... and he merely struggled to stop someone like this when he attempted and succesfully stopped SSJ2 teen Gohan, whereas he was sure that, if it were merely Gohan as a SSJ1, he would then be able to stop him, apparently without much problems. This also works alongside Gohan fighting on his strongest form against Dabura, or at least Dabura being about as strong as that form, not a form that Kaioshin could supposedly stop without problems.

But, it's also worth noting that Toyotaro -- much like Toriyama -- illustrates the SSJ2 as having its aura constantly filled with sparks, which then shows that Toyotaro for sure saw the sharpened aura riddled with sparks as a SSJ2's trait. In all confirmed SSJ2 instances in the manga, Toyotaro makes a case in showing the aura with the sparks and has even Goku differentiating both forms in front of Zeno-sama (when this latter wished to see Goku's forms), where we can see that an aura with spark is -- to Toyotaro as well -- clearly a trait of a SSJ2.

So maybe, to work out all the implications in favor of the SSJ2 POV above, is it wise to assume that Toriyama illustrated teen Gohan [against Dabura] with a SSJ1 aura on purpose so he'd also convey visually how weakened he was compared to the other Saiyajins? Maybe you can also have future Dabura as >>> present Dabura... **shrugs**.


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Re: Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> Toyotaro's manga

Post by Kakarot » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:44 pm

I thought this was always the consensus? Whenever I read the manga Super Saiyan 2 was always shown with an aura and a noticeably sharper hairstyle (even with Vegeta in my opinion.) Future Dabura is definitely stronger than the Dabura shown in the Majin Buu saga, though.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> Toyotaro's manga

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:02 pm

I'm with Kakarot here.

If the twins are weaker in the future, there is nothing wrong with Dabra being stronger in the future as well. Like you said, Toyotaro and Toriyama both draw the SSJ2 auras with sparks and way sharper than SSJ, and Gohan presented the SSJ aura for several chapters straight, while Goku and Vegeta were constantly shown with SSJ2 auras while pummeling each other. Toriyama draw Gohan with a SSJ2 aura on the Budokai, unless he was trying to say Gohan vs Dabra > Gohan at the Budokai, which contradicts what Shin told Kibito... Only makes sense if you say Toriyama changed his mind about Budokai Gohan. But if Toriyama did retcon SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai, all the arguments for Gohan being SSJ2 will lost any basis they might have.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> Toyotaro's manga

Post by Kaboom » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:13 pm

Oh boy. I'm'a have to keep an eye on this thread now that I've seen it, huh?

Well to be totally frank, I don't think Toyotaro's shown us anything with his Trunks vs Dabra fight that Toriyama's own manga didn't already show with Gohan vs Dabra. In art terms, it shows that a Super Saiyan 2 has sparks in their aura, and a Super Saiyan 1 doesn't. In story and power-scaling terms, it shows that a Super Saiyan 1 struggles against Dabra, while a Super Saiyan 2 beats him. Beyond that, it's a whole lot of conjecture and not much else.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> Toyotaro's manga

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:21 pm

I think the crux of what they're getting at is that Future Dabra was beating up a post-Z Sword Trunks, who should be comparable to post-Z Sword Gohan, who should be substantially stronger than the Gohan that fought Dabra. Of course, I never really bought into the idea that swinging the Z Sword around did much for Gohan other than improve his arm strength.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> Toyotaro's manga

Post by theherodjl » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:02 pm

I like to imagine that Saiyans can somewhat access additional latent power than whatever amount that they ordinarily draw out, something akin to 'borrowing' strength from their total reservoir of power to battle an opponent without transforming.
Gohan does something like this in M10 when he is able to combat SSJ Broly whilst remaining in base form, a feat that seems illogical if the concept of static power levels are set upon the fight. I think this action can be applied to Gohan's fight against Dabura in that SSJ Gohan was drawing out some of the power of his SSJ2 without actually tranforming up, I guess you could say he was in a state between the forms or SSJ1.5. It's the only way I can make sense of it.
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